Whaley is an idiot.

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'd put winning football games more on the coaching than the GM. The GM can only field the best on-paper roster as possible. It's the coach that needs to turn those ingredients into a real meal.

 

And we all know that Whaley never had a chance to hire his own coach, plus, he dealt with an incredible rate of turnover at all of the coaching positions. Which means major scheme changes every year.

 

We all know how poorly Rex did here. The sharp decline of the team was ALL on him. Yet some sit here and say Whaley was supposed to win those games? Makes no sense.

Rex was without question an unmitigated disaster in Buffalo. He was an alleged defensive guru who ruined that side of the ball. However, Whaley blew it with the Watkins trade, and not doing a better job of addressing the QB situation. There is no coach who was going to win with QB’s like Manuel/Orton/Taylor/Tuel etc. Only a dominant defense could overcome such poor QB play. Contrary to the belief of many, this team never had a truly dominant defense, even before Rex. The numbers looked good, but they were never really dominant. Beane has built his defense while adding decent pieces on the offensive side of the ball. He also went all in to find a potential franchise QB. That’s how it’s done, Whaley never had a clear vision. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by SirAndrew

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Wsam4031 said:

this is all in hindsight. Last year before Mahomes went nuts lets be honest most people thought it was a good trade. I was one of them. I still am. Granted id love to have Mahomes seeing how good he is now but we got tre white and Allen out of it. As long as Allen doesn't flop out was a good trade for both teams. Time will tell

 

Allen wasn't acquired with capital from the Mahomes trade.

 

They got Tre White and the pick they traded up for from Tremaine Edmunds out of the Mahomes trade.   So White and like 3/4 of Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes.

 

There is zero chance those two will ever justify passing on a stud franchise QB if Mahomes remains that.    None whatsoever.    That's just the value of the position it dwarves every other position in value and impact on a franchise.

 

The hope is that passing on Mahomes to (a year later) choose Allen works out like passing on Marino to select Jim Kelly did.    

 

Yeah Marino is remembered as the greater QB in league scope and has the much greater stats and the longer NFL career that Kelly didn't...........but Kelly was ALSO a HOF'er and his team owned Marino for most of Kelly's NFL career.   

Edited April 24, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[Rico]

Whaley is a definite failure. 4 years as assistant GM + 3 years as GM with no playoffs make this a bottom line fact.

 

You have to look at his press conferences for proof that he was an idiot, but i will admit that can be subjective.

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I think that you have me confused with someone else. Do tell me when I ever heaped praise upon Beane, or especially McDermott. Imo both need to prove themselves. I will say that imo Beane is far more disciplined than Whaley ever thought about being.

 

You otoh are way more forgiving than I am in terms of the Bills. You have actually praised Jauron as a coach which to me is unthinkable. I'm not sure what you thought of Levy as a GM.  Now, Whaley is this great GM? Yikes!!!!! Where are their job offers CB? We both know that they are non-existent. I think that if I took stances like you I would probably be a happier person in general, but I just don't have it in me to proclaim that franchise killers such as Jauron, Levy (as GM) and Whaley were any good at their jobs.

 

 

That said, the dialogue is fun.

Agreed about the dialogue. ? we both have been here for a long time and just want to root for a consistently good team. But to counter:

 

1) it’s funny that you knew me as a homer because a lot of new posters think I’m a “hater.”  I think over the years, blindly defending this team I love has taken its toll on me.  I just can’t pretend anymore.  I didn’t like Allen as a qb for us so I can’t pretend I love him just because the Bills drafted him.  I hope he becomes good but I’ve been burned so many times.

 

2) I stand by the Jauron thing.  Look bad at those rosters.  It’s amazing we got 7 wins some years.  I think the majority of coaches are basically average.  So if Jauron had a real franchise qb, he would have been fine.  I feel McDermott has a lot of Jauron in him.  That said, like most coaches, if Allen is a franchise guy, he will magically become a better coach. 

 

3) never said Whaley was a great GM.  But that 2015 team has as much talent as any Bills team since the Bledsoe years.  And how do we know what jobs he has gotten?  How do we know he isn’t making more at his current XFL job than a step back nfl one?  Whaley gets a bad rap here just like Tim Murray did with the Sabres. 

 

4) I agree Whaley did take some big risks.  But has this regime really learned from this? MCBeane has traded up 3 times in the draft when arguably better players were available when they picked (time will tell).  They also traded multiple picks for Benjamin, who was a fat slob in Carolina when they were there. 

 

5) Ralph was forced by TD’s crappiness to hire someone he trusted in Marv.  It was a crazy decision but people seem to forget he drafted 2 players that will get HOF consideration (they won’t get in) in Lynch and Kyle Williams.  That’s a good haul. 

 

Sorry for the long post.  I just simply believe Whaley was a solid GM who had coaches forced on him.  I feel McBeane really haven’t proven anything yet and they get a pass for everything because they are new.  I want them to succeed but I like being consistent.  And as difficult as we make this, if Allen turns into a franchise qb, this regime will be successful.  If not, we will have Beane is an idiot posts in a couple of years.

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Allen wasn't acquired with capital from the Mahomes trade.

 

They got Tre White and the pick they traded up for from Tremaine Edmunds out of the Mahomes trade.   So White and like 3/4 of Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes.

 

There is zero chance those two will ever justify passing on a stud franchise QB if Mahomes remains that.    None whatsoever.    That's just the value of the position it dwarves every other position in value and impact on a franchise.

 

The hope is that passing on Mahomes to (a year later) choose Allen works out like passing on Marino to select Jim Kelly did.    

 

Yeah Marino is remembered as the greater QB in league scope and has the much greater stats and the longer NFL career that Kelly didn't...........but Kelly was ALSO a HOF'er and his team owned Marino for most of Kelly's NFL career.   

Marino vs. Kelly is how I can see Mahomes vs. Allen playing out. The one guy had all the great stats, especially in his first year as starting QB, but the other guy is the one you want on your team in a big game. 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

Rex was without question an unmitigated disaster in Buffalo. He was an alleged defensive guru who ruined that side of the ball. However, Whaley blew it with the Watkins trade, and not doing a better job of addressing the QB situation. There is no coach who was going to win with QB’s like Manuel/Orton/Taylor/Tuel etc. Only a dominant defense could overcome such poor QB play. Contrary to the belief of many, this team never had a truly dominant defense, even before Rex. The numbers looked good, but they were never really dominant. Beane has built his defense while adding decent pieces on the offensive side of the ball. He also went all in to find a potential franchise QB. That’s how it’s done, Whaley never had a clear vision. 

Huh?  I went to the GB game where they beat Aaron Rodgers without scoring an offensive td.  They broke Peyton Manning touchdown streak when he was still a beast.  That defense was dominant.  

 

2 minutes ago, Rico said:

Marino vs. Kelly is how I can see Mahomes vs. Allen playing out. The one guy had all the great stats, especially in his first year as starting QB, but the other guy is the one you want on your team in a big game. 

Yeah, Mahomes only had 3 tds and scored 31 points in the championship game.  Bum!

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Allen wasn't acquired with capital from the Mahomes trade.

 

They got Tre White and the pick they traded up for from Tremaine Edmunds out of the Mahomes trade.   So White and like 3/4 of Tremaine Edmunds for Mahomes.

 

There is zero chance those two will ever justify passing on a stud franchise QB if Mahomes remains that.    None whatsoever.    That's just the value of the position it dwarves every other position in value and impact on a franchise.

 

The hope is that passing on Mahomes to (a year later) choose Allen works out like passing on Marino to select Jim Kelly did.    

 

Yeah Marino is remembered as the greater QB in league scope and has the much greater stats and the longer NFL career that Kelly didn't...........but Kelly was ALSO a HOF'er and his team owned Marino for most of Kelly's NFL career.   

I know this is blasphemous but what if we had Marino instead of Kelly?  Those Bills team were much more loaded than the Fins.  The Fins kinda sucked minus Marino.  Kelly was a bad postseason Qb but his team was so good it didn’t really matter until the SB. 21 tds, 28 ints

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/

[Rico]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh?  I went to the GB game where they beat Aaron Rodgers without scoring an offensive td.  They broke Peyton Manning touchdown streak when he was still a beast.  That defense was dominant.  

 

Yeah, Mahomes only had 3 tds and scored 31 points in the championship game.  Bum!

And Marino made it to the Super Bowl. 

 

Don’t forget, stats are for losers.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Rico said:

And Marino made it to the Super Bowl. 

 

Don’t forget, stats are for losers.

Yeah, it’s Mahomes’ fault.  Not the 2nd worst defense in the nfl or Dee Ford’s.  It’s the 2nd year qb who went back and forth with the best qb ever fault’s. 

 

Anyone who puts puts that loss on Mahomes is insane. 

[Rico]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah, it’s Mahomes’ fault.  Not the 2nd worst defense in the nfl or Dee Ford’s.  It’s the 2nd year qb who went back and forth with the best qb ever fault’s. 

 

Anyone who puts puts that loss on Mahomes is insane. 

No, as always I put it on their chump HC. All I’m saying is that 1 year doesn’t make Mahomes an all-time great and that I see better intangibles in Josh than I do in PM as far as being a leader and winner. Time will tell how it all pans out.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Rico said:

No, as always I put it on their chump HC. All I’m saying is that 1 year doesn’t make Mahomes an all-time great and that I see better intangibles in Josh than I do in PM as far as being a leader and winner. Time will tell how it all pans out.

I mean I hope you’re right but I don’t know anyone can question Mahomes’ intangibles. Dude was a star the second he stepped on the field and never looks rattled.  He lost a game where he scored 50 points!

[Rico]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean I hope you’re right but I don’t know anyone can question Mahomes’ intangibles. Dude was a star the second he stepped on the field and never looks rattled.  He lost a game where he scored 50 points!

Are you old enough to have seen Dan Marino in 1984?  Unstoppable, a lock to be GOAT... until reality set it. He did make it into the HOF though, and will be remembered as one of the greatest regular season QB’s of all time. Mahomes last year reminds me of Marino in 1984, we’ll eventually see just how good he ends up being.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Rico said:

Are you old enough to have seen Dan Marino in 1984?  Unstoppable, a lock to be GOAT... until reality set it. He did make it into the HOF though, and will be remembered as one of the greatest regular season QB’s of all time. Mahomes last year reminds me of Marino in 1984, we’ll eventually see just how good he ends up being.

I was more of the Bills in the 90s but I think I know enough about Marino’s career.  I think it was more a problem if the lack of talent around him and the fact the Bills were in their division.  I think Marino single handedly carried that team.  

 

Put it this way, if Allen comes close to Mahomes’ year, would you have any questions about him? ?

[DrDawkinstein]

Marino's biggest problem was the complete lack of Running game for most of his career in Miami.

 

Kelly had Thurman and Davis to fall back on and take some of the heat off.

 

80s/90s Dolphins were a pass-only team.

[Fan in Chicago]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Fair enough. Idiot is harsh. I think that he was a bad GM, but I do not think that he is an idiot.

Thank you for saying this. By calling Whaley an idiot, Tipster19 dropped several levels in my eyes. 

We can all debate whether Whaley was or wasn't a competent GM but no way should he be called an idiot

[Rico]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I was more of the Bills in the 90s but I think I know enough about Marino’s career.  I think it was more a problem if the lack of talent around him and the fact the Bills were in their division.  I think Marino single handedly carried that team.  

 

Put it this way, if Allen comes close to Mahomes’ year, would you have any questions about him? ?

QB stats are irrelevant to me, but if he put up as many wins with last year’s Bills roster, then no, I wouldn’t, until he showed me reason to think otherwise.

 

When it came to the playoffs, Marino often looked like a deer in headlights, then would put up some garbage stats against prevent defenses at the end of the game. Good times!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

37 minutes ago, Rico said:

Whaley is a definite failure. 4 years as assistant GM + 3 years as GM with no playoffs make this a bottom line fact.

 

You have to look at his press conferences for proof that he was an idiot, but i will admit that can be subjective.

 

..STILL sounds like he hasn't made your Christmas list yet...............

[Lurker]

I can't believe this thread is still open...

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I can't believe this thread is still open...

 

...any idea when the "TOM DONOHOE WAS TURRIBLE" thread is supposed to start?.......

[C.Biscuit97]

37 minutes ago, Rico said:

QB stats are irrelevant to me, but if he put up as many wins with last year’s Bills roster, then no, I wouldn’t, until he showed me reason to think otherwise.

 

When it came to the playoffs, Marino often looked like a deer in headlights, then would put up some garbage stats against prevent defenses at the end of the game. Good times!

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00/gamelog/post/

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/

 

marino was better than Kelly in the postseason.  Kelly had the better team.  It’s the same thing with Aaron Rodgers.  He’s been better in the postseason than Brady but Brady has the better team.  As important as QB is, it’s hard for them to single handedly win playoff games.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Marino vs. Kelly is how I can see Mahomes vs. Allen playing out. The one guy had all the great stats, especially in his first year as starting QB, but the other guy is the one you want on your team in a big game. 

 

 

I don't know about big games.   He had moments like most good QB's and as he matured I think Kelly got better in the clutch but during the SB run he didn't stand out for his big game expertise.   They just simply out talented teams more often than not.    The Dolphins never had near the Bills talent from 1988-1994.  It was a mismatch.   I'm a huge Kelly fan but Marino is the type who will always be in discussion as a top 10 all time kinda' guy.   Kelly is not in that group.   The key for McBeane is that they need to put the better team around him the way Polian did with Kelly.     I'd rather win than care who had the better QB or passer etc..