Logic Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Mat68 said: What was Joe Thomas impact on the Browns franchise. What was Walter Jones impact for Seatle? But again it's also a team sport. One player not matter how good doesnt change a lot. That argument is asinine. How many titles did Randy Moss win? How many titles did Barry Sanders win? How many titles did Tony Gonzalez win? If the argument is for an "impact player" instead of a lineman, which is how this conversation started, I'll ask again: What position other than QB or edge rusher has as big an impact on a football team?
The Senator Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 29 minutes ago, akcash said: I like Williams at about 25 overall. Yeah, and in that same alternate universe, I like Christian Wilkins at 40. . 1 hour ago, Mat68 said: The Browns were the worst team in football for the vast majority of his career. The point is that a Hall of Fame OT doesnt effect the franchise and team as much as other positions can. Now it's a team sport so 1 player doesnt have a large contribution to the overall success expect for QB, and even they are leveraged by coaching blocking and pass catchers. Watch the first 5 minutes of The Blind Side. . 1
akcash Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, The Senator said: Yeah, and in that same alternate universe, I like Christian Wilkins at 40. . Watch the first 5 minutes of The Blind Side. . Thats about where I'd like Christian Williams as well... Think Dexter Lawrence is better than him. Edited April 24, 2019 by akcash
Mr. WEO Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Logic said: 1.) Offensive Tackle is either the second or third most important position in Football. QB is #1, obviously, but after that come Edge Rushers and Offensive Tackles. Your attempt to minimize the importance of a high quality left tackle is off base, in my opinion. 2.) We can play this game both ways. How many championships did dangerous offensive weapon and Hall of Famer Tony Gonzalez win his team over the years? How many championships did the Lions win with Calvin Johnson or with Barry Sanders? You can't use the lack of team success during a great player's tenure as evidence that that player isn't worth having or seeking out in the draft. 3.) Do you really think the Browns would have won more games during those years if they had chosen Adrian Peterson over Joe Thomas? If you want an "impact player" at 9, it's hard to overstate the influence that a franchise left tackle can have on a quarterback's success and on an offense as a whole. It's also hard to overstate the importance of the left tackle position in general. If you told me I could have either Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson in their prime on the Bills for the next decade, I know who I'd pick 10 times out of 10. I'm not sure how else to explain it. Barry Sanders had an overwhelmingly obvious impact on the Detroit offense in that he WAS the offense. Ditto for Megatron. Gonzalez scored 111 TDs, over 15,ooo yards, 864 1st downs and in the last 16 of his 17 seasons, he missed one start! These guys were playing at position that by their very nature are high impact/playmaker positions----and they were each among the very best to play the game. Joe Thomas prevented a lot of pass rushers from getting to the QB....from the Left side of the line. The QBs were gotten to from everywhere else. Still can't tell the difference? How many championships did Russell Wilson win with a HOF (or even a very good) LT? A couple. Brady? Almost all of them his career....
Logic Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Mr. WEO said: I'm not sure how else to explain it. Barry Sanders had an overwhelmingly obvious impact on the Detroit offense in that he WAS the offense. Ditto for Megatron. Gonzalez scored 111 TDs, over 15,ooo yards, 864 1st downs and in the last 16 of his 17 seasons, he missed one start! These guys were playing at position that by their very nature are high impact/playmaker positions----and they were each among the very best to play the game. Joe Thomas prevented a lot of pass rushers from getting to the QB....from the Left side of the line. The QBs were gotten to from everywhere else. Still can't tell the difference? How many championships did Russell Wilson win with a HOF (or even a very good) LT? A couple. Brady? Almost all of them his career.... Oh FFS. Fine. You win. Wide receiver and running back and tight end are clearly more important to team success than a quality left tackle. What was I thinking?? 1
Dr. Who Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Logic said: I'm not sure I buy that Williams is strictly a guard in the NFL. I DO believe, however, that if he flames out at tackle, he'll still make an above average guard. I'm not saying Quenten Nelson level, but I'll think he'll be darn good inside if that's where he ends up. And offensive tackle is one of the only positions in the draft where if the guy you pick doesn't work out, he has a potential fall-back position that keeps the pick from being a waste. If DK Metcalf or Ed Oliver bust at WR or DT, respectively, for instance, there's no backup position for them. I agree with this. One fella here thinks Williams best position would actually be center. So, there's definitely more chances you find a place for a player like that. 1
The Senator Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Logic said: Oh FFS. Fine. You win. Wide receiver and running back and tight end are clearly more important to team success than a quality left tackle. What was I thinking?? Dammit, I’ve had WEO on ‘Ignore’ for years, yet every time someone quotes him, his bullsh*t nonsense shows up on my screen! . 1
Mr. WEO Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Logic said: Oh FFS. Fine. You win. Wide receiver and running back and tight end are clearly more important to team success than a quality left tackle. What was I thinking?? History proven this. Everyone raves about Dallas's O-line talent. Yet their offense is mediocre---relies mainly on an outstanding RB. As I said, Joe Staley would have just as valuable as Thomas for the Browns. Or they could have drafted AP. Or Patrick Willis. Or Revis. Or Lawrence Timmons. That guy could get to the QB! Heck even Beastmode was available---how many HOF LTs did he run behind in Seattle with those championships? Stop repeating what you have told and start assessing for yourself.
Logic Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: History proven this. Everyone raves about Dallas's O-line talent. Yet their offense is mediocre---relies mainly on an outstanding RB. As I said, Joe Staley would have just as valuable as Thomas for the Browns. Or they could have drafted AP. Or Patrick Willis. Or Revis. Or Lawrence Timmons. That guy could get to the QB! Heck even Beastmode was available---how many HOF LTs did he run behind in Seattle with those championships? Stop repeating what you have told and start assessing for yourself. 1
Mat68 Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm not sure how else to explain it. Barry Sanders had an overwhelmingly obvious impact on the Detroit offense in that he WAS the offense. Ditto for Megatron. Gonzalez scored 111 TDs, over 15,ooo yards, 864 1st downs and in the last 16 of his 17 seasons, he missed one start! These guys were playing at position that by their very nature are high impact/playmaker positions----and they were each among the very best to play the game. Joe Thomas prevented a lot of pass rushers from getting to the QB....from the Left side of the line. The QBs were gotten to from everywhere else. Still can't tell the difference? How many championships did Russell Wilson win with a HOF (or even a very good) LT? A couple. Brady? Almost all of them his career.... Williams is not Joe Thomas. At LT he is not a sure upgrade over Dawkins. An elite skill player or average Olineman? I dont care what position Buffalo goes. Inside the top 10 with 2 possible QBs you can find better than average starter. 1
Mr. WEO Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Logic said: I mean if you could offer anything persuasive in response I would consider it. You just keep repeating the same thing. Your arguments made no sense (Sanders, Megatron, Gonzalez), as I showed. Impact. No impact. Yeah the Browns fans will be talking about Joe Thomas forever. "remember when Thomas did....that blocking, uh....". " He was a real bright spot protecting his side of the line of scrimmage!"
Logic Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I mean if you could offer anything persuasive in response I would consider it. You just keep repeating the same thing. Your arguments made no sense (Sanders, Megatron, Gonzalez), as I showed. Impact. No impact. Yeah the Browns fans will be talking about Joe Thomas forever. "remember when Thomas did....that blocking, uh....". " He was a real bright spot protecting his side of the line of scrimmage!" "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". - Mark Twain Look man, you've made your point of view perfectly clear. You think left tackle is an unimportant position and the Browns would've been better off drafting Marshawn Lynch or Lawrence freaking Timmons, because they sure didn't do much winning with First Ballot Hall of Famer Joe Thomas on the roster! We can agree to disagree, it's fine. You think that left tackle is not an "impact position". I vehemently disagree, and would venture to guess that 90% of the humans who watch and understand football would agree with me. It's fine. Let's move on.
Mr. WEO Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 9 hours ago, Logic said: "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". - Mark Twain Look man, you've made your point of view perfectly clear. You think left tackle is an unimportant position and the Browns would've been better off drafting Marshawn Lynch or Lawrence freaking Timmons, because they sure didn't do much winning with First Ballot Hall of Famer Joe Thomas on the roster! We can agree to disagree, it's fine. You think that left tackle is not an "impact position". I vehemently disagree, and would venture to guess that 90% of the humans who watch and understand football would agree with me. It's fine. Let's move on. "Stupid people"? There's the tell....
mjt328 Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 Jonah Williams would be a good draft pick at #9... as long as this staff sees him as a franchise Left Tackle. I think it would also signal the end of Dion Dawkins on this football team. If we draft Williams, don't be surprised if Dawkins is packaged in a trade shortly after. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big believer in drafting BPA. I'm just hoping that BPA matches up with our current needs a little better.
mcdamit Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 anyone get the feeling that he is the guy if their top d guys are gone and they can't trade down ?
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