The reality of what Beane is creating with the OL.

[GreggTX]

I disagree that pass protection should be favored over run blocking. The hardest offense to stop is the one that runs between the tackles, runs wide, throws short or long equally well because they can catch you off guard more easily. Obviously the Patriots are an exception because of Brady, but he truly is unique in that regard. I also think relying on Allen's passing acumen too much would be a mistake.

[WideNine]

12 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 While I get that Josh Allen likes to throw the deeper passes just as he did while at Wyoming and that McD and Daboll have stated they would like to have Allen throw more underneath, dump off passes. They didn't state this until later in the season. This should have been taken care of internally after the first game. 

 

LeSean McCoy was the leading receiver in 2017 with 77 targets, 59 receptions for a 76.6 catch percentage which makes me wonder why he wasn't utilized more often in Daboll's scheme regardless of going from a "west coast" scheme to the EP they now run in Buffalo. 

 

The scheme that Daboll is running is the "Erhardt-Perkins" which is very versatile in allowing the OC to tailor the offense to the players he has on the roster.  Yes, the scheme they run "Ghost Tosser" calls for a deep out to stretch the defense... the QB doesn't need to focus on this one particular receiver to make the big play one third of the time. In particular in knowing that the top two receivers can't even catch one half the passes thrown their way! Also knowing that the offensive line would barely allow for a two second drop back in the pocket, much less a three to five seconds needed for those deeper passes. 

 

The way the Bills offense worked in Buffalo in 2018 sure wasn't the way the Patriots run that same scheme. With all those deep passes Buffalo was 31st in passing yards, 32nd in passing TDs.

It clearly wasn't working at the start of the season, at the middle and only in the very last game against Miami did the play calling settle down and stop with all the deep passes. The Bills only went deep twice in this game with 33 rush attempts vs 26 pass attempts. Josh Allen threw for three TDs and ran for two more. 

 

I have a difficult time believing that Allen was this raw and yet was the #7 player taken in the 2018 NFL draft. I also don't believe it was all Allen making the decision all on his own to throw those deep passes. 

 

If you go look at the game log of that very first Bills vs Ravens game in which Nathan Peterman started he went 5 of 18 for 24 yards. He was sacked in the first series on third down probably with a deep pass called. Threw deep left on third down in the second series. Third series sacked on first down probably because a deep pass called. In the fourth series on second down a deep pass incomplete to KB. Fifth series on first down deep pass incomplete to KB, on third down deep pass incomplete to KB. Sixth series. Seventh series on 3rd down deep right to Jason Croom. Eighth series ended on an INT on a short middle pass to KB. 

 

Peterman sacked three times and attempted five to seven deep passes as two of those drop backs resulted in sacks. Josh Allen entered the game in the 3rd quarter and the second play of that series was his first pass which was a deep pass incomplete to Zay Jones. Next play Allen was sacked, probably attempting another deep pass. 

 

Both Peterman and Allen were attempting far more deep passes (10) then they should have and both QBs were sacked three times each for 6 sacks total. 

 

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

 

This is not unusual for strong-armed rookie QBs, it is not a matter of scheme it is a matter of maturing from the hero-ball of Juco and two years at Wyoming to the kind of offense an NFL team wants their QB to be able to run. It is a change in read progression that Josh needs to embrace and it is not usually pre-installed in a draft QB prospect regardless of where he is taken - the two things are not really related.

 

Now taking shorter options may already be there because that is the kind of game a draft QB plays - Mayfield for instance is a shorter QB that many have compared to Breese when he was coming out because of his physical measurables and the way he would spread the ball around, extend plays, and hit the underneath options at Oklahoma. I personally thought his longer passes could be pretty ugly.... at least the ones I saw him throw in their bowl games.

 

Several OBD sources have indicated that this is a learning thing for Allen, not a "we have to provide some underneath routes" kind of thing. Beane went as far as to say in response to a question that they feel it is easier to take a QB that loves to push the ball down the field and teach him to look for the shorter options that to take a QB who is "check-down Charlie" and try to teach him to fire the ball past the sticks when needed.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/11/2019 at 9:48 PM, Augie said:

Josh took hits with no flag that would have resulted in prison time had it been Brady. Just sayin’. 

 

Pretty much.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

 

This is not unusual for strong-armed rookie QBs, it is not a matter of scheme it is a matter of maturing from the hero-ball of Juco and two years at Wyoming to the kind of offense an NFL team wants their QB to be able to run. It is a change in read progression that Josh needs to embrace and it is not usually pre-installed in a draft QB prospect regardless of where he is taken - the two things are not really related.

 

Now taking shorter options may already be there because that is the kind of game a draft QB plays - Mayfield for instance is a shorter QB that many have compared to Breese when he was coming out because of his physical measurables and the way he would spread the ball around, extend plays, and hit the underneath options at Oklahoma. I personally thought his longer passes could be pretty ugly.... at least the ones I saw him throw in their bowl games.

 

Several OBD sources have indicated that this is a learning thing for Allen, not a "we have to provide some underneath routes" kind of thing. Beane went as far as to say in response to a question that they feel it is easier to take a QB that loves to push the ball down the field and teach him to look for the shorter options that to take a QB who is "check-down Charlie" and try to teach him to fire the ball past the sticks when needed.

 

 

 

 

This is a pretty good take.

 

I'll add into it, that it was clear during the combine and Josh's pro-day as well as preseason that he legit struggled with accuracy on the dump-off passes.

IMO he knew it and would tuck it and run sometimes when a dump off or checkdown option was open and available.  Either that or didn't see it, but IMO he ran at times when he could see an open Shady, he just didn't have confidence he would hit it and thought his legs were a better bet.

 

That needs to change for JA to have long term NFL success.  "Gotta hit the bunnies!"

[WideNine]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is a pretty good take.

 

I'll add into it, that it was clear during the combine and Josh's pro-day as well as preseason that he legit struggled with accuracy on the dump-off passes.

IMO he knew it and would tuck it and run sometimes when a dump off or checkdown option was open and available.  Either that or didn't see it, but IMO he ran at times when he could see an open Shady, he just didn't have confidence he would hit it and thought his legs were a better bet.

 

That needs to change for JA to have long term NFL success.  "Gotta hit the bunnies!"

 

I did see his footwork improve over the course of the year.

 

It seemed he did get a lot of coaching about his mechanics and the need to reset his feet quickly to align his lead foot better with the intended spot he is going to throw to underneath, but early on this was an awkward deliberate process where the timing was off.

 

As the season progressed it became a smoother more natural effort, he had better timing and foot placement after his drops to hit more shorter options with good touch.

 

Makes sense that on deeper throws where he doesn't have to reset his feet laterally as much and can step into his throws the proper mechanics come more naturally to Allen along with better ball placement.

 

He will get there as Daboll is probably going to assign him a quota of minimal short passes to complete each game:)

 

 

 

 

 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

More and more I'm thinking Jonah Williams is the pick. 3 year starter. 44 games played. Versatile. Perfectionist. Great team leader and only cares about football.

 

EDIT: His coaches nicknamed him, "THE INTELLECTUAL!" for goodness sake

Edited April 15, 2019 by FeelingOnYouboty

[Nihilarian]

11 hours ago, WideNine said:

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

This game you linked was a preseason game against the Carolina Panthers and it looked like both head coaches got together and said let's not blitz like crazy. So the QB's had more time in the pocket to throw in this game. 

 

On that very first play why should the QB look at the underneath guy when the deep post receiver had beaten his man and he had time to throw? (1)The very next play after that deep ball Allen throws a short pass that was incomplete just to make a first down. (2) Next pass after that was another short pass over the middle to Clay for a first down. (3)The play after that was a mid range 20 yard pass on 2nd and 8 for a first down. (4) The next play is a pass to the back in the flat five yards behind the line of scrimmage...(5)

 

The next play on 3rd and 13 again Allen throws a short pass 5 yards beyond the LoS and some yards behind the first down marker. (6)The next play on 4th down and 3 Allen scrambles and attempts to throw it away. (7) So far only one out of seven passes attempted was deep and most were short passes in an attempt to make a first down.

 

Next play on 1st and 10 a short pass attempting to get to the first down. On 2nd and 10 from the Bills 25, Allen steps up in the pocket and hits his receiver at the Bills 45 for a first down on a deep pass. Really a darn shame Allen didn't have protection like this during the regular season! The thing is, the Bills had two open receivers underneath and the camera view from the end zone showed how open the Bills receiver was and that a defender fell down on the play. 

 

From ESPN,

(11:15 - 3rd) G.Gano kicks 65 yards from CAR 35 to end zone, Touchback. Kick through end zone.

• 1st & 10 at BUF 25

  (11:15 - 3rd) J.Allen sacked at BUF 19 for -6 yards (J.Carter).

• 2nd & 16 at BUF 19

  (10:35 - 3rd) K.Ford up the middle to BUF 31 for 12 yards (L.Doss).

• 3rd & 4 at BUF 31

  (9:57 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass short left to K.Clay to BUF 37 for 6 yards (D.Southward). Flat pass, caught at BUF 36.

• 1st & 10 at BUF 37

  (9:23 - 3rd) K.Ford left tackle to BUF 39 for 2 yards (B.Cox).

• 2nd & 8 at BUF 39

  (8:49 - 3rd) J.Allen pass short left to J.Croom to CAR 39 for 22 yards (D.Cox). Caught in flat at CAR 49.

• 1st & 10 at CAR 38

  (8:17 - 3rd) K.Ford right guard to CAR 33 for 5 yards (C.Frey, C.Elder).

• 2nd & 5 at CAR 33

  (7:36 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass short left to K.Clay to CAR 30 for 3 yards (C.Elder, M.Palardy). Screen pass, caught at CAR 36. Penalty on BUF, Illegal Formation, declined. PENALTY on CAR-J.Carter, Lowering the Head to Initiate Contact, 15 yards, enforced at CAR 33 - No Play.

• 1st & 10 at CAR 18

  (6:48 - 3rd) J.Allen pass short right to M.Murphy to CAR 17 for 1 yard (S.Bailey). Screen pass, caught at CAR 23.

• 2nd & 9 at CAR 17

  (6:32 - 3rd) (Shotgun) K.Ford up the middle to CAR 16 for 1 yard (L.Doss).

• 3rd & 8 at CAR 16

  (5:59 - 3rd) PENALTY on BUF-K.Ford, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at CAR 16 - No Play.

• 3rd & 13 at CAR 21

  (5:49 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass short right to K.Ford to CAR 10 for 11 yards (R.Brown, L.Doss). Caught near sideline at CAR 17.

•  

  (5:03 - 3rd) Timeout #1 by BUF at 05:03.

• 4th & 2 at CAR 10

  (4:53 - 3rd) J.Allen pass incomplete short left to J.Croom (D.Hall) [J.Carter]. Pass tipped in flat at CAR 20.

The next series Allen attempted more deep passes but those were because of the down and distance 2nd and 10, 2nd and 17, 3rd and 22. In the last series it captured one reason as to why I think Daboll kept calling deep passes in some games during the regular season and that is because the Bills were behind in the score 23-28 and he wanted to catch up by throwing deep... as the last 4 of 5 passes were deep. 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Nihilarian

[Nihilarian]

14 hours ago, WideNine said:

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

To further my point about the deep pass calls. The week 10 Jets game the very first pass from Matt Barkley was a deep 47 yard bomb to Robert foster that set the tone for the game. Buffalo had the lead the entire game and the Bills still threw it deep eight times. The Jets only threw deep four times despite being behind the entire game.

 

Daboll calling for 5-7 deep throws in 18 attempts for Nathan Peterman in his start against the Ravens. Daboll calling for 8 deep throws for Matt Barkley in his 26 attempts.  This shows that it wasn't just about Josh Allen or any issues some fans think he is dealing with.

 

The simple fact was that Bills OC Brian Daboll was calling for far, far too many deep passes when the Bills didn't have much of a run game from the RB's to take the heat off the QBs, or worse yet much protection in the pocket as the O line stunk. Even with Allen's unreal pocket escape ability and ability to run he was still sacked 28 times in 12 games. 

 

It wasn't just Josh Allen with the deep passes as both Peterman and Barkley were also throwing deep. It couldn't be more clear to me that the Bills OC Brian Daboll called the scheme his way regardless of the QB. The object should be to move the chains to make first downs, get into the red zone and score. Not to throw deep 30% of the time.  

 

[MILFHUNTER#518]

The ultimate goal is to raise the level of play from lower tier CFL to mid level NFL, just as a starting point.

[Dr. K]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:19 AM, WideNine said:

 

Not going to work too hard to convince you if your mind is made up and that is fine.

 

You can go back and watch one of the very first games below with Josh throwing to see what kind of routes were called: On the very first play you will see the RB (Murphy I believe) provide an uncovered underneath option for Josh - this is pretty standard for most passing plays as there is usually an underneath option, or a dump off option. Yet he does not even consider it. He does hit a deeper option, but that is all he was looking at from the snap on.

 

This is not unusual for strong-armed rookie QBs, it is not a matter of scheme it is a matter of maturing from the hero-ball of Juco and two years at Wyoming to the kind of offense an NFL team wants their QB to be able to run. It is a change in read progression that Josh needs to embrace and it is not usually pre-installed in a draft QB prospect regardless of where he is taken - the two things are not really related.

 

Now taking shorter options may already be there because that is the kind of game a draft QB plays - Mayfield for instance is a shorter QB that many have compared to Breese when he was coming out because of his physical measurables and the way he would spread the ball around, extend plays, and hit the underneath options at Oklahoma. I personally thought his longer passes could be pretty ugly.... at least the ones I saw him throw in their bowl games.

 

Several OBD sources have indicated that this is a learning thing for Allen, not a "we have to provide some underneath routes" kind of thing. Beane went as far as to say in response to a question that they feel it is easier to take a QB that loves to push the ball down the field and teach him to look for the shorter options that to take a QB who is "check-down Charlie" and try to teach him to fire the ball past the sticks when needed.

 

 

 

It's useless to argue with Nihilarian. His mind is made up. 

[transient]

1 hour ago, Dr. K said:

It's useless to argue with Nihilarian. His mind is made up. 

 

It's hard to argue with a man with an ax to grind who believes that 54% is less than half and that regurgitated box score/play by play is detailed analysis...

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, Dr. K said:

It's useless to argue with Nihilarian. His mind is made up. 

 

33 minutes ago, transient said:

 

It's hard to argue with a man with an ax to grind who believes that 54% is less than half and that regurgitated box score/play by play is detailed analysis...

Okay, I show that the Bills OC was calling for deep passes with three different QBs!  And the consensus from the board is that it's all on Josh Allen because he refuses to throw the underneath stuff...

 

Yet, I showed in the Carolina game log 3rd quarter series that he does indeed throw short passes. That game log shows completion after completion with 5 of 6 passes completed. 6 yards, 22 yards, 3 yards, 1 yard, 11 yards.  I don't see a problem with Allen throwing a short pass!

 

It's those deep passes to the two guys who didn't catch very well that bothered me. If the OC honestly didn't want the QB to throw deep he would simply call plays that didn't send a receiver deep! 

 

 

Oh, I forgot. Allen would just change the play to a deep pass because that's all he wants to do...

 

 

[Dr. K]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Okay, I show that the Bills OC was calling for deep passes with three different QBs!  And the consensus from the board is that it's all on Josh Allen because he refuses to throw the underneath stuff...

 

Yet, I showed in the Carolina game log 3rd quarter series that he does indeed throw short passes. That game log shows completion after completion with 5 of 6 passes completed. 6 yards, 22 yards, 3 yards, 1 yard, 11 yards.  I don't see a problem with Allen throwing a short pass!

 

It's those deep passes to the two guys who didn't catch very well that bothered me. If the OC honestly didn't want the QB to throw deep he would simply call plays that didn't send a receiver deep! 

 

 

Oh, I forgot. Allen would just change the play to a deep pass because that's all he wants to do...

 

 

So just be confident in your possession of the simple Truth. We'll see if it plays out any differently this season.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Dr. K

[John from Riverside]

On 4/13/2019 at 9:31 AM, LabattBlue said:

I think Beane realized the OL was beyond terrible last year, and brought in Morse to anchor the line, and then turned to a bunch of 1-2 year stop gaps.  If the stop gaps turn out to be extension worthy, great.  If not, draft and develop replacements for the stop gaps.

I dont think Spain is a stop gap

[Mark Long Beach]

11 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I dont think Spain is a stop gap

 

I hope not, but his contract says he is.  We have him for one year and only for peanuts.

[John from Riverside]

28 minutes ago, Mark Long Beach said:

 

I hope not, but his contract says he is.  We have him for one year and only for peanuts.

The eye test on Spain says he is good......he is on a prove it deal and I dont know why...but I can easily see him being a Bill for a long time.

[Billzfan23]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:26 AM, Joe in Winslow said:

So he built an OL to protect our QB? Seems legit.

He'd be the first Bills GM in two decades to that

[JPL7]

When it comes to making the offensive and defensive lines top priority, coaches and GM’s often talk the talk, but rarely walk the walk. We often see personnel managers focus on the sexy positions of quarterback, wide receiver, running back, etc. and do patch work when it comes to the big uglies. Yes, franchise quarterbacks are difficult to come by, so to pass over a legitimate franchise caliber player at that position would be detrimental. On the flip side, imagine investing in a brand-new Bugatti La Voiture Noire, (Quarterback Josh Allen) and not adequately insuring it (2018 Bills O-Line).
 

Undoubtedly, Brandon Beane made it the team’s top priority to enhance the offensive line, and rightfully so. Building through the trenches is key to success in the NFL. In fact, the 2018 Bills had one of the lowest combined salaries among offensive lines in the league. Fun Fact… Newly-signed Mitch Morse will be earning more than the combined total of last year’s starting five.

Offseason Offensive Line Additions 
C-Mitch Morse: 4 yr $44.5 mill
The cream of the free agent crop, Morse is known for his top-tier pass blocking ability and overall leadership. The perfect compliment to a young quarterback. 

T-Ty Nsekhe: 2 yr $14.5 mill
 Nsekhe has the versatility to play any guard or tackle spot, though is currently penciled in as the starting right tackle. The long winding career road for Nsekhe hits its apex with a big money contract in Buffalo. 

T-LaAdrian Waddle: 1 yr $2 mill
His wife, @MrsWaddle68 on Twitter has garnered quite the following in Buffalo. Hopefully her better half will do the same and claim a spot on the Bills line. LaAdrian has bounced around the league, most recently with the Patriots, but he is versatile and big. A combination Beane has shown to love. 

G-Spencer Long: 1 yr $2.65 mill with two team options
Long is mean, big, and nasty. Oh, and versatile. Is anyone catching on to the theme here? He can play either guard position and can be a solid fill-in at center as well. 
 
G-Jon Feliciano: 2 yr $8.3 mill
Stop me if you have heard this one before… Feliciano is big, mean, and nasty. He has started only 8 games in 3 seasons, but was brought in to battle for one of the starting guard spots. At the very least he will be a solid reserve guard. 

G-Quinton Spain: 1 Year $2.05 mill
Quite the bargain at just over $2 mill for a guard of Spain’s caliber. In four seasons he started 48 games, including 2 in the playoffs. You can all but pencil him for starting at one of the guard positions. 

Returners: T-Dion Dawkins, G-Wyatt Teller, T-Conor McDermott, G-Jeremiah Sirles, G-Vlad Ducasse, G-Ike Boettger, C-Russell Bodine

My assumption is that the Bills will keep 9 offensive linemen and given the roster as it currently stands the starting five would likely be:
LT- Dion Dawkins
LG- Quinton Spain
C- Mitch Morse
RG- Jon Feliciano
RT- Ty Nsekhe
Reserves- Wyatt Teller, Spencer Long, LaAdrian Waddle, Jeremiah Sirles

Sirles only sticks around if they Bills do not draft a lineman in the first 4 rounds. If they do, Sirles is likely a goner. Boettger may find himself on the practice squad.

The two words that describe Beane’s philosophy when it comes to the o-line, would be versatility and nastiness. Nsekhe brings both of those qualities, as does Long. As I stated previously, Feliciano brings with him a mean streak as well. Think Richie Incognito, minus the crazy. Depending on the draft and how Dion Dawkins performs in camp and preseason, you may see Nsekhe getting time on Josh Allen’s left side. I won’t pretend to be an offensive line guru, but my preference would be to have Dawkins transition to guard as I am not a fan of his at left tackle. His play last year was uninspiring at times. 

Draft 
Depending on how the draft falls, the Bills could potentially have three highly-touted o-line prospects at their #9 spot. 
T-Jawaan Taylor, University of Florida
T-Jonah Williams, University of Alabama
T- Andre Dillard, Washington State

As is always the case, each prospect has their strengths and weaknesses. Dillard is deemed the best pass blocker in the draft, which would certainly be advantageous for second-year quarterback, Josh Allen. Jonah Williams played left tackle at Alabama, but some scouts view him as only capable of playing on the right side in the NFL. He has the nastiness that Beane likes, and played for Bills offensive coordinator, Brian Daboll, at Alabama, so familiarity is there. Taylor has played both tackle positions, possessing the versatility Beane prefers.

Of the three tackles being considered, my preference, in order, would be; Dillard, Williams, Taylor. The Bills may even be able to trade back a few spots, acquire additional draft capital, and still acquire one of the three players.  Dawkins had his struggles last season and Nsekhe is simply a short-term starter due to his age, making it imperative that Buffalo uses an early round pick on a tackle. A quality guard could also be added in the draft. Dalton Risner would be a dream scenario for the Bills in round 2.

Ultimately, the Bills need to shore up the offensive line for not only the intermediate future, but the long-term as well. With a dynamic franchise quarterback now on the roster, the number one priority must be protecting him. A quality offensive-line will make a decent QB good, a good QB great, and a great QB hall of fame caliber. Expect at least one o-line pick in the first two rounds next week. Who will be that player(s)? Only time will tell. Go Bills! 

 

http://www.mikecrosky.com/go-bills-blog/2019/4/17/go-bills-blog-4-the-rebuild-of-the-o-line?fbclid=IwAR0gu4qG2TtuurtbeXytpW-t3RQ-XgAqPxRtdMMWK4PeWksEgk_vP0iX0xc