SoTier Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, SirAndrew said: There is never going to be much of a trade market for a guy whose team is giving up on him in his second season. I know that’s not an original thought, but it does explain the entire Rosen situation. I wouldn’t say he’s already a bust. We’ve seen greater turnarounds, but it’s quite concerning that his team is willing to give up so quickly. I realize they have a new coaching staff, but it doesn’t say much about him as a first round pick. I totally agree, and I imagine that many if not most of the NFL personnel guys figure exactly the same. Giving up on any first round pick (barring catastrophic injury) after a single rookie labels him an epic "bust", and that probably goes double for QBs. In the last dozen years, I can think of only 3 first round QBs who weren't given at least 3 years to prove themselves with their original teams: Ja'Marcus Russell, Johnny Manziel, and Paxton Lynch -- and all of them got at least a second year with their original team. Nobody is giving up a day one or day two pick for Rosen at this point even if they think that the Cards organization is totally incompetent and that Rosen might have chance to become a decent QB. They'll low ball the Cards by offering a 5th or 6th rounder. 2
mannc Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Hopefully, you are right. But 1). Rosen missed less games than Allen 2) their passing numbers were almost identical (Allen is a far superior runner). i think the Cards are stupid for banking on a little person with one year of college experience. But I also would not like Rosen getting traded to the Pats for one of their 12 2nd rounders either. Thank you. Rosen’s passing numbers were barely distinguishable from Allen’s, and yet people here are assuming Rosen is a bust and Allen is the Second Coming. As you point out, Allen is a much better runner, but still... 3
Zerovoltz Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 6 hours ago, dubs said: This is a pretty amazing situation. Fair disclosure: I don’t hold myself out to be an expert on Rosen or Murray. What I do believe is that it seems Rosen didn’t have a real good situation last year and was a pretty highly rated QB prior to last year. Why not trade down and pick up a ton of picks and build around the guy you got, rather than use the pick on another QB and get only another 3rd for Rosen. ? The situation is highly unusual....but....there probably haven't been this set of circumstances come along in a long time, if ever. Team takes a QB in round 1 but he is the 4th QB off the board, he lands on a team that has a 1st year coach....the OC is run out of town in a hurry and the replacement OC doesn't do much better.....you finish with the 1st overall pick....AND there is a QB that the CARDINALS FO (wich is who matters in this case) beleives is a game changer/generational type talent.... You have fired the coach and staff from the year before and you hired a coach whose sole qualifications thus far is that he has HC experience, is a proven architecht of a system that has produced a couple of STAR NFL QB (Mahomes, Mayfield) and the guy avialable at 1, is of that system. The Cardinals are not looking at this in the sense that "we have a QB we took at 1 last year". Throw that out the window...they DO NOT CARE...and it does not matter where they took Josh Rosen...that is a sunk cost..... The choice the Cardinals have...and this is how they are veiwing it...(and they've made the choice already) is we could stick with Rosen.....we have tape on him..he was here for a year...he's under contract. Or we could choose this other QB who we believe (key word..BELIEVE) is a generational talent. This is not even a choice.....if you believe a guy is a generational talent at QB...and you also believe the guy you have is NOT one...you take the generational talent every single time. That isn't saying Murray will be a star, or that Rosen won't be....I am saying Arizona brass beleives Murray will be a star. There isn't a trade package anyone could offer the Cardinals right now to move out of that pick. Bufallo could offer their next 10 1st rounders and Arizona isn't moving. ....again...it's becasue they believe Murray to be a generational type talent. Now....we'll see how it actually works out...I personally think this the right move for AZ..I think Murray is going to be very good.......certainly better than Rosen. 1
GunnerBill Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 It is worth saying the Cardinals did not "plan" to move on from Rosen. When the GM led the coaching search it was finding a fit for Rosen that was at its heart. The coach and owner have both just fallen for Murray. It is a big gamble. If it doesn't pay off Arizona will be ridiculed for years to come. Especially if, and I still think he will, Rosen goes on to have success elsewhere. 1
HOUSE Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) The market dried up after Oakland signed Petermen . Edited April 12, 2019 by HOUSE 2
Doc Brown Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: It is worth saying the Cardinals did not "plan" to move on from Rosen. When the GM led the coaching search it was finding a fit for Rosen that was at its heart. The coach and owner have both just fallen for Murray. It is a big gamble. If it doesn't pay off Arizona will be ridiculed for years to come. Especially if, and I still think he will, Rosen goes on to have success elsewhere. I agree. It's odd for a new coach to come in and convince a GM who's been there a while to give up on your first round QB pick the year before. Kingsbury's sales pitch for the job may have been I'll do for Rosen what McVay did for Goff. Then Murray (who could decide to just play baseball after one injury) decides to enter the NFL draft and those plans may have been thwarted.............or it's all a smokescreen.
Turk71 Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 3 hours ago, mannc said: Thank you. Rosen’s passing numbers were barely distinguishable from Allen’s, and yet people here are assuming Rosen is a bust and Allen is the Second Coming. As you point out, Allen is a much better runner, but still... I think it comes down to attitude. Rosen has always impressed me as an arrogant, egotistical, soft, self entitled douchebag. Allen impresses me as a confident, hard working team player. Time will tell if he is the better qb but I was glad when the Bills said Josh they followed it with Allen. Plus my great grandmother was an Allen.? 1
Prickly Pete Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, the skycap said: I like Rosen already based on the hat he's wearing You're going to lose.
dlonce Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 I certainly hope the Pats don’t get Rosen. I don’t understand how anyone can say this kids a bust after one season. He was in a terrible situation in Arizona and wasn’t a fit there. We picked the right Josh for our team, and the rumors of Arizona wanting Allen instead are likely true. He may flourish on a different team. Maybe a little humble pie served warm will motivate him.
eball Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 I don't know what the big "surprise" is here. When all 31 other teams know you want to move a guy you lose all leverage. I don't think Arizona is a very astute organ-eye-zation. At this point I might just draft Murray and keep Rosen -- make it a QB competition in camp and let the best man win. It's a novel approach but dealing Rosen for peanuts would be stupid unless the Cardinals' staff is convinced Rosen is not the guy. Getting the QB decision right is, as we know, the most important thing a franchise can do. I'm not going to trash Rosen in this space but he did not perform the way I expected last season and appeared to be regressing towards year-end. One can make all of the usual excuses about bad OL play and whatnot, but it is what it is. Compare and contrast how Allen finished out the year with just as crappy of a supporting cast. There's something about Rosen that gives me the impression he could just as easily say "eff this schitt" and stop playing football altogether.
SmokinES3 Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 8 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I agree- the cards know him better than any other team and are already done apparently. Who wants a guy that was top 10 last year and already done? The optics alone make his demand low. Is that real? If so what a moron- remember Jordan " Republicans buy shoes also" Yes it is. He was physically playing at a Trump golf course as well.
PetermansRedemption Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 6 hours ago, mannc said: Thank you. Rosen’s passing numbers were barely distinguishable from Allen’s, and yet people here are assuming Rosen is a bust and Allen is the Second Coming. As you point out, Allen is a much better runner, but still... That little running part is pretty huge though. When it accounts for 8 TD’s, numerous drives extended and a whole host of plays extended. Rosen had 11 passing TDS the entire year, Allen almost had that rushing. If Allen were a pure pocket statue then they would both be labeled accordingly. 1
ROCBillsBeliever Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 9 hours ago, Buffaloflash said: Who was that guy that quit his job at wgr because we took Allen over Rosen? He's got to be feeling stupid right about now. Oh, you mean Ryan Gates: https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2018/06/wgr_producer_follows_through_on_quitting_due_to_buffalo_bills_drafting_josh_alle.html Quote from the article: "There are plenty of other examples of people backing out on promises on social media, but WGR-550's Ryan Gates is not going to add his name to the list. Gates announced on Monday that he'd be stepping down as producer of Schopp and the Bulldog and host of The Nightcap after promising to do so in the event the Buffalo Bills drafted Josh Allen with Baker Mayfield or Josh Rosen still on the board." I'd be willing to bet he's doing fine, though. Probably working in one of Robert Graft's (intentional misspelling) shadow corporations that buy refs, or maybe running a tug n pull parlor down in Boca Raton. Yeah... he's fine.
mannc Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bills2ref said: That little running part is pretty huge though. When it accounts for 8 TD’s, numerous drives extended and a whole host of plays extended. Rosen had 11 passing TDS the entire year, Allen almost had that rushing. If Allen were a pure pocket statue then they would both be labeled accordingly. I don’t disagree. I love Allen’s running game, but most people don’t think it’s sustainable and that if he becomes a franchise qb it will be because of his arm, not his legs. 1
GunnerBill Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, mannc said: I don’t disagree. I love Allen’s running game, but most people don’t think it’s sustainable and that if he becomes a franchise qb it will be because of his arm, not his legs. Agree. Franchise Quarterbacks are always passers first. Even the mobile ones. And whether it is Allen or Rosen the common theme is they need get better as passers than they showed last year.
ROCBillsBeliever Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 3 hours ago, HOUSE said: The market dried up after Oakland signed Petermen . @HOUSE You mean, once the worst QB in the universe was off the table, nobody was gunning for the 2nd worst? ?
PetermansRedemption Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, ROCBillsBeliever said: I'd be willing to bet he's doing fine, though. Probably working in one of Robert Graft's (intentional misspelling) shadow corporations that buy refs, or maybe running a tug n pull parlor down in Boca Raton. Yeah... he's fine. Wait, you mispellled Robert Kraft 1
BarleyNY Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, mannc said: I don’t disagree. I love Allen’s running game, but most people don’t think it’s sustainable and that if he becomes a franchise qb it will be because of his arm, not his legs. I don’t know if running the ball - and extending plays behind the LOS - like he does is sustainable or not, but I think you have to let him do it. The ball does not come out of his hand when his foot hits on his drops. Maybe that improves, but you can’t count on it. He holds the ball like Roethlisberger does and he’s going to take hits like he does. The good news his that Allen is much more mobile. The bad news is that he’s not as accurate. The rushing yards will have to make up for the lost passing yards. It is a risk, but it’s his only path to success.
ROCBillsBeliever Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Bills2ref said: Wait, you mispellled Robert Kraft Oh NOOOOOOOO!!! I totally thought that it was Graft all this time... I mean, aren't last names like Smith or Hatter supposed to be descriptive of an occupation? Robert's last name... well... I'll let a smarter entity (the internet) define Robert's last name: Edited April 12, 2019 by ROCBillsBeliever 1
GunnerBill Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: I don’t know if running the ball - and extending plays behind the LOS - like he does is sustainable or not, but I think you have to let him do it. The ball does not come out of his hand when his foot hits on his drops. Maybe that improves, but you can’t count on it. He holds the ball like Roethlisberger does and he’s going to take hits like he does. The good news his that Allen is much more mobile. The bad news is that he’s not as accurate. The rushing yards will have to make up for the lost passing yards. It is a risk, but it’s his only path to success. He's definitely faster than Ben but before Ben got fat he moved pretty good for a big guy.
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