Operation Boomerang AG Barr's Investigation of Acts of Treason by Federal Employees

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, Foxx said:

it is the President's job to look into all corruption.

 

your two equivalencies is like comparing apples to oranges.

It's messed up he is getting away with abuse of power, but you guys saying childish things in his defense are just extra pathetic 

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

4 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

I'm trying to figure out if we are on the same page here. 

 

Obama shouldn't have done it and neither should Trump.  Are we all in agreement here?  Or is it that since Obama did it it is okay that Trump is doing it?

 

Isn't this a textbook definition of whataboutism?

 All of this is an attempt to have a real conversation, and put the partisanship stuff aside. I'm not a partisan, I don't think you are either. None of this is meant to be combative or attacking of your position. 

 

This is not at all whataboutism -- and I'll explain why. But you need to define "it" first, as do I, because I don't think we're thinking "it" means the same thing. I'll go first: 

 

The facts -- not speculation, not opinion, not "conspiracy theory" -- but the facts are that the Obama administration weaponized the DOJ, FBI, CIA (and IC) to violate the constitution (4th amendment) to spy on his political opposition for the purposes of controlling the outcome of an election and (likely) blackmail of his political opponents. This was not done just to the Trump campaign in 2016, but to all the campaigns including Bernie's. This was not unique to the 2016 election, but there's documented FISC evidence which proves this abuse was ongoing since at least 2012 -- and likely since 2001 stretching back into the W administration who was doing the same thing. 

 

How were they violating the constitution to spy on their political opposition? They were subverting the rule of law in the worst way imaginable. The mass surveillance data collected under the 702 program (if you don't know what that is, we can walk that out more) requires any federal authority to acquire a warrant before it can be viewed. We learned, with evidence -- not speculation or opinion, but evidence from the FISC itself -- that between just November 1, 2015 through May 2016, over 85% of all FBI-CID/DOJ-NSD searches of 702 data was done without the required warrant. Meaning, it was illegal. Worse, the same opinion memo from the FISC lays out that most of these illegal searches were being carried out not by authorized FBI/DOJ personnel but by independent contractors working for the DOJ. 

 

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/icotr/51117/2016_Cert_FISC_Memo_Opin_Order_Apr_2017.pdf

 

This was discovered in May of 2016 by the NSA head under Obama, Admiral Mike Rogers who ran it up the chain of command. The NSA and FISC then were demanding, in 2016, that the Obama administration provide a legal explanation for each and every one of those illegal searches. At that point in time, there was no Trump/Russia story. There was no Trump/Russia investigation. There was no talk whatsoever about Russia interfering in the 2016 election. 

 

Within days of the FISC becoming aware of this breach, Obama holds a meeting in the White House with Glenn Simpson's wife. The next day, Fusion GPS is hired by the Clinton Campaign to do opposition research on Trump. Less than two weeks after that, Fusion GPS hires Steele to find dirt on Trump connected to Russia. 

 

What this shows is that the entire Russian story we've had rammed down our necks since summer/fall of 2016, was FICTION. It was created by the Obama administration and the CIA to cover up  what I just laid out above. Because what is above is the biggest political scandal in the history of this country. They had no legal way to explain their multi-year, illegal, political surveillance. Not just of Trump, but of journalists, activists, and citizens who dared to speak out against their agenda.

 

After the FISC was alerted to these illegal searches, the NSA shut down DOJ/FBI access to these 702 servers. Meaning, the private contractors who had been doing the illegal dirty work (contractors which included CrowdStrike and Fusion GPS), lost their access to the mass surveillance spigot. They'd have to get a warrant to turn that spigot back on -- but they couldn't without a proper cause. 

 

Enter -- the Russia frame up. It was designed to provide legal cover to PAST abuses of surveillance, and to sink Trump's campaign in 2016 which would assure HRC won and NONE of this ever saw the light of day. Again, we're talking about a sitting US president weaponizing the entirety of the USIC to illegally spy on his opposition in order to manipulate the results of elections. 

 

Sound familiar? 

 

But there was a problem in March-April of 2016 for these dirty actors. They were being pressured to come up with cause, but couldn't access the mass surveillance data  they needed to run their smear operation. So what did Obama's chiefs do? 

 

They outsourced it to FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS. Applying pressure, in the form of 'quid pro quos' to coherence countries like the UK, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and others to help them spy on their political opponents. How did that work? Simple: it is illegal for the CIA/FBI/USIC to spy on American citizens without a warrant using the mass surveillance tools -- but it's not illegal for the Brits to do it and share that information with their American counter parts. 

 

Enter the true purpose of the 5-Eye network. It provides each member country with a built in work around their laws, allowing them to dip into each other's intelligence networks to spy on their own citizens. 

 

This was SOP for at least 16 years before Trump. And in the summer and fall of 2016, the Obama Administration put it on steroids because they needed to protect this scandal from ever being exposed... 

 

Then, when Trump won in 2016, it gave the Obama Administration a VERY short window to create a pretext for a palace coup during the transition... lies and innuendo leaked to the press about an FBI counterintelligence investigation into Trump/Russia wasn't enough now. They needed something that would REALLY stick. 

 

Enter the January 2016 ICA, and the leaking of the Steele Dossier. A fifth column of corrupt IC officials and agents worked hard behind the scenes to push a lie they KNEW to be a lie (that Trump was a Russian agent -- they knew this was fake because they created it in the spring of 2016 to cover up the scandal above) and used their cut outs in the media to cement this in the minds of the public. It was insidious information warfare, waged on the people of this country by the Obama administration and it's cohorts in the IC and media. 

The intent was to hide the biggest scandal in the history of this country, one that if it goes public would call into question every election we've had since 2000 (at least) and the USIC's role in meddling in them. It would also destroy Obama's "scandal free" legacy, and expose that he was everything the left has accused Trump of being x10. He was an ACTUAL fascist dictator, who spied on his political opposition, blackmailed them using illegally obtained dirt and smearing anyone who dared stand up to him using his media cut outs. 

 

That's what this is all about. That's the original sin, so to speak. 

 

The evidence is overwhelming and clear about all of this... it's not speculation. It's backed by facts which the media has worked, for three years, to hide from the public because they were in on the con. 

 

That is not, at all, what happened with Trump and the Ukraine. In any way shape or form.

 

 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 All of this is an attempt to have a real conversation, and put the partisanship stuff aside. I'm not a partisan, I don't think you are either. None of this is meant to be combative or attacking of your position. 

 

This is not at all whataboutism -- and I'll explain why. But you need to define "it" first, as do I, because I don't think we're thinking "it" means the same thing. I'll go first: 

 

The facts -- not speculation, not opinion, not "conspiracy theory" -- but the facts are that the Obama administration weaponized the DOJ, FBI, CIA (and IC) to violate the constitution (4th amendment) to spy on his political opposition for the purposes of controlling the outcome of an election and (likely) blackmail of his political opponents. This was not done just to the Trump campaign in 2016, but to all the campaigns including Bernie's. This was not unique to the 2016 election, but there's documented FISC evidence which proves this abuse was ongoing since at least 2012 -- and likely since 2001 stretching back into the W administration who was doing the same thing. 

 

How were they violating the constitution to spy on their political opposition? They were subverting the rule of law in the worst way imaginable. The mass surveillance data collected under the 702 program (if you don't know what that is, we can walk that out more) requires any federal authority to acquire a warrant before it can be viewed. We learned, with evidence -- not speculation or opinion, but evidence from the FISC itself -- that between just November 1, 2015 through May 2016, over 85% of all FBI-CID/DOJ-NSD searches of 702 data was done without the required warrant. Meaning, it was illegal. Worse, the same opinion memo from the FISC lays out that most of these illegal searches were being carried out not by authorized FBI/DOJ personnel but by independent contractors working for the DOJ. 

 

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/icotr/51117/2016_Cert_FISC_Memo_Opin_Order_Apr_2017.pdf

 

This was discovered in May of 2016 by the NSA head under Obama, Admiral Mike Rogers who ran it up the chain of command. The NSA and FISC then were demanding, in 2016, that the Obama administration provide a legal explanation for each and every one of those illegal searches. At that point in time, there was no Trump/Russia story. There was no Trump/Russia investigation. There was no talk whatsoever about Russia interfering in the 2016 election. 

 

Within days of the FISC becoming aware of this breach, Obama holds a meeting in the White House with Glenn Simpson's wife. The next day, Fusion GPS is hired by the Clinton Campaign to do opposition research on Trump. Less than two weeks after that, Fusion GPS hires Steele to find dirt on Trump connected to Russia. 

 

What this shows is that the entire Russian story we've had rammed down our necks since summer/fall of 2016, was FICTION. It was created by the Obama administration and the CIA to cover up  what I just laid out above. Because what is above is the biggest political scandal in the history of this country. They had no legal way to explain their multi-year, illegal, political surveillance. Not just of Trump, but of journalists, activists, and citizens who dared to speak out against their agenda.

 

After the FISC was alerted to these illegal searches, the NSA shut down DOJ/FBI access to these 702 servers. Meaning, the private contractors who had been doing the illegal dirty work (contractors which included CrowdStrike and Fusion GPS), lost their access to the mass surveillance spigot. They'd have to get a warrant to turn that spigot back on -- but they couldn't without a proper cause. 

 

Enter -- the Russia frame up. It was designed to provide legal cover to PAST abuses of surveillance, and to sink Trump's campaign in 2016 which would assure HRC won and NONE of this ever saw the light of day. Again, we're talking about a sitting US president weaponizing the entirety of the USIC to illegally spy on his opposition in order to manipulate the results of elections. 

 

Sound familiar? 

 

But there was a problem in March-April of 2016 for these dirty actors. They were being pressured to come up with cause, but couldn't access the mass surveillance data  they needed to run their smear operation. So what did Obama's chiefs do? 

 

They outsourced it to FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS. Applying pressure, in the form of 'quid pro quos' to coherence countries like the UK, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and others to help them spy on their political opponents. How did that work? Simple: it is illegal for the CIA/FBI/USIC to spy on American citizens without a warrant using the mass surveillance tools -- but it's not illegal for the Brits to do it and share that information with their American counter parts. 

 

Enter the true purpose of the 5-Eye network. It provides each member country with a built in work around their laws, allowing them to dip into each other's intelligence networks to spy on their own citizens. 

 

This was SOP for at least 16 years before Trump. And in the summer and fall of 2016, the Obama Administration put it on steroids because they needed to protect this scandal from ever being exposed... 

 

Then, when Trump won in 2016, it gave the Obama Administration a VERY short window to create a pretext for a palace coup during the transition... lies and innuendo leaked to the press about an FBI counterintelligence investigation into Trump/Russia wasn't enough now. They needed something that would REALLY stick. 

 

Enter the January 2016 ICA, and the leaking of the Steele Dossier. A fifth column of corrupt IC officials and agents worked hard behind the scenes to push a lie they KNEW to be a lie (that Trump was a Russian agent -- they knew this was fake because they created it in the spring of 2016 to cover up the scandal above) and used their cut outs in the media to cement this in the minds of the public. It was insidious information warfare, waged on the people of this country by the Obama administration and it's cohorts in the IC and media. 

The intent was to hide the biggest scandal in the history of this country, one that if it goes public would call into question every election we've had since 2000 (at least) and the USIC's role in meddling in them. It would also destroy Obama's "scandal free" legacy, and expose that he was everything the left has accused Trump of being x10. He was an ACTUAL fascist dictator, who spied on his political opposition, blackmailed them using illegally obtained dirt and smearing anyone who dared stand up to him using his media cut outs. 

 

That's what this is all about. That's the original sin, so to speak. 

 

The evidence is overwhelming and clear about all of this... it's not speculation. It's backed by facts which the media has worked, for three years, to hide from the public because they were in on the con. 

 

That is not, at all, what happened with Trump and the Ukraine. In any way shape or form.

 

 

Stop, you won, just stop

telling lies!! 

[B-Man]

The two pillars of 'political correctness' are,

a) willful ignorance, and

b) a steadfast refusal to face the truth.

George MacDonald Fraser

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by B-Man

[DC Tom]

29 minutes ago, B-Man said:

The two pillars of 'political correctness' are,

a) willful ignorance, and

b) a steadfast refusal to face the truth.

George MacDonald Fraser

 

Why do you hate trans-men so much?  They can have babies too!

[section122]

17 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 All of this is an attempt to have a real conversation, and put the partisanship stuff aside. I'm not a partisan, I don't think you are either. None of this is meant to be combative or attacking of your position. 

 

This is not at all whataboutism -- and I'll explain why. But you need to define "it" first, as do I, because I don't think we're thinking "it" means the same thing. I'll go first: 

 

<snip>

 

 

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that out. 

 

I'm with you all the way up to thinking that Trump won this election is spite of all of this going on and played fairly.  I buy everything except the idea that he and the Repubs would operate above board if as you say it has gone back to at least GW.  I'm not saying the impeachment is necessary or warranted but at what time does the lid get blown off of this so it no longer happens?  That's what I was trying to get at.  I don't want to excuse Obama's actions anymore than I want Obama's actions used to excuse Trump's actions (if he did the same).  I have no problem with him being investigated.  If he did no wrong I will be relieved.

 

I fear I am rambling at this point so I apologize for not being as well written as you but hopefully I got my point across lol.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

22 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 All of this is an attempt to have a real conversation, and put the partisanship stuff aside. I'm not a partisan, I don't think you are either. None of this is meant to be combative or attacking of your position. 

 

This is not at all whataboutism -- and I'll explain why. But you need to define "it" first, as do I, because I don't think we're thinking "it" means the same thing. I'll go first: 

 

The facts -- not speculation, not opinion, not "conspiracy theory" -- but the facts are that the Obama administration weaponized the DOJ, FBI, CIA (and IC) to violate the constitution (4th amendment) to spy on his political opposition for the purposes of controlling the outcome of an election and (likely) blackmail of his political opponents. This was not done just to the Trump campaign in 2016, but to all the campaigns including Bernie's. This was not unique to the 2016 election, but there's documented FISC evidence which proves this abuse was ongoing since at least 2012 -- and likely since 2001 stretching back into the W administration who was doing the same thing. 

 

How were they violating the constitution to spy on their political opposition? They were subverting the rule of law in the worst way imaginable. The mass surveillance data collected under the 702 program (if you don't know what that is, we can walk that out more) requires any federal authority to acquire a warrant before it can be viewed. We learned, with evidence -- not speculation or opinion, but evidence from the FISC itself -- that between just November 1, 2015 through May 2016, over 85% of all FBI-CID/DOJ-NSD searches of 702 data was done without the required warrant. Meaning, it was illegal. Worse, the same opinion memo from the FISC lays out that most of these illegal searches were being carried out not by authorized FBI/DOJ personnel but by independent contractors working for the DOJ. 

 

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/icotr/51117/2016_Cert_FISC_Memo_Opin_Order_Apr_2017.pdf

 

This was discovered in May of 2016 by the NSA head under Obama, Admiral Mike Rogers who ran it up the chain of command. The NSA and FISC then were demanding, in 2016, that the Obama administration provide a legal explanation for each and every one of those illegal searches. At that point in time, there was no Trump/Russia story. There was no Trump/Russia investigation. There was no talk whatsoever about Russia interfering in the 2016 election. 

 

Within days of the FISC becoming aware of this breach, Obama holds a meeting in the White House with Glenn Simpson's wife. The next day, Fusion GPS is hired by the Clinton Campaign to do opposition research on Trump. Less than two weeks after that, Fusion GPS hires Steele to find dirt on Trump connected to Russia. 

 

What this shows is that the entire Russian story we've had rammed down our necks since summer/fall of 2016, was FICTION. It was created by the Obama administration and the CIA to cover up  what I just laid out above. Because what is above is the biggest political scandal in the history of this country. They had no legal way to explain their multi-year, illegal, political surveillance. Not just of Trump, but of journalists, activists, and citizens who dared to speak out against their agenda.

 

After the FISC was alerted to these illegal searches, the NSA shut down DOJ/FBI access to these 702 servers. Meaning, the private contractors who had been doing the illegal dirty work (contractors which included CrowdStrike and Fusion GPS), lost their access to the mass surveillance spigot. They'd have to get a warrant to turn that spigot back on -- but they couldn't without a proper cause. 

 

Enter -- the Russia frame up. It was designed to provide legal cover to PAST abuses of surveillance, and to sink Trump's campaign in 2016 which would assure HRC won and NONE of this ever saw the light of day. Again, we're talking about a sitting US president weaponizing the entirety of the USIC to illegally spy on his opposition in order to manipulate the results of elections. 

 

Sound familiar? 

 

But there was a problem in March-April of 2016 for these dirty actors. They were being pressured to come up with cause, but couldn't access the mass surveillance data  they needed to run their smear operation. So what did Obama's chiefs do? 

 

They outsourced it to FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS. Applying pressure, in the form of 'quid pro quos' to coherence countries like the UK, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and others to help them spy on their political opponents. How did that work? Simple: it is illegal for the CIA/FBI/USIC to spy on American citizens without a warrant using the mass surveillance tools -- but it's not illegal for the Brits to do it and share that information with their American counter parts. 

 

Enter the true purpose of the 5-Eye network. It provides each member country with a built in work around their laws, allowing them to dip into each other's intelligence networks to spy on their own citizens. 

 

This was SOP for at least 16 years before Trump. And in the summer and fall of 2016, the Obama Administration put it on steroids because they needed to protect this scandal from ever being exposed... 

 

Then, when Trump won in 2016, it gave the Obama Administration a VERY short window to create a pretext for a palace coup during the transition... lies and innuendo leaked to the press about an FBI counterintelligence investigation into Trump/Russia wasn't enough now. They needed something that would REALLY stick. 

 

Enter the January 2016 ICA, and the leaking of the Steele Dossier. A fifth column of corrupt IC officials and agents worked hard behind the scenes to push a lie they KNEW to be a lie (that Trump was a Russian agent -- they knew this was fake because they created it in the spring of 2016 to cover up the scandal above) and used their cut outs in the media to cement this in the minds of the public. It was insidious information warfare, waged on the people of this country by the Obama administration and it's cohorts in the IC and media. 

The intent was to hide the biggest scandal in the history of this country, one that if it goes public would call into question every election we've had since 2000 (at least) and the USIC's role in meddling in them. It would also destroy Obama's "scandal free" legacy, and expose that he was everything the left has accused Trump of being x10. He was an ACTUAL fascist dictator, who spied on his political opposition, blackmailed them using illegally obtained dirt and smearing anyone who dared stand up to him using his media cut outs. 

 

That's what this is all about. That's the original sin, so to speak. 

 

The evidence is overwhelming and clear about all of this... it's not speculation. It's backed by facts which the media has worked, for three years, to hide from the public because they were in on the con. 

 

That is not, at all, what happened with Trump and the Ukraine. In any way shape or form.

 

 

 

 

....nicely done DR......shocking, abhorring yet interesting to see the alleged "world's greatest democracy" is as corrupt or more so than corrupt foreign governments we've been trying to force feed our democracy (SMH).....as far as Obama, he was nothing more than an unqualified JUNIOR State senator,  a cardboard cutout propped up by the Clintons as a candidate based or race and public speaking skills....when I look at who he was surrounded and propped up, namely ex-Clintonites like Sperling, Emmanuel, Podesta, Blumthenal, Begala, Carville, et al, it is safe to assume that the Clinton Dynasty was FULLY engaged and intertwined with most if not all of the Obama Administration dirty deeds you have eloquently outlined....and if Hillary won in 2016 and was re-elected in 2020, it give the "dynasty" a 24 year stranglehold on US political power....they ushered in the dirtiest era of graft, corruption, manipulation, "play for play foundation scam", malfeasance, dirty tricks, orchestrated coup attempt of a sitting President, etc in this nation's history.....once thought to be bastions of the democracy namely DOJ, FBI, CIA, NSA, are equally corrupt culprits,  politicized on a grossly partisan basis....J Edgar's FBI reign?......Watergate?....u r kidding me?....not even a blip on today's radar......

[Koko78]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

you won

 

Like that was ever in doubt.

 

1 hour ago, section122 said:

I buy everything except the idea that he and the Repubs would operate above board if as you say it has gone back to at least GW.

 

I don't want to speak for DR, but it is likely not a coincidence that so many GOP politicians "retired" at the end of 2018, including Paul Ryan. They weren't clean.

[Foxx]

thread.

https://twitter.com/themarketswork/status/1197984107021524992

 

[Deranged Rhino]

1 hour ago, section122 said:

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that out. 

 

 Any time. I enjoy a good conversation. Thank you for allowing us to have one, because this is a really important topic that unfortunately gets muddled because of the partisan nature of politics in general. 

 

My response below is meant to be taken in the same vein -- just continuing the conversation, not trying to be combative or drag it out. I'm the sort of person who doesn't mind debate, I enjoy it because it allows me to test the mettle of my own opinions (and reassess when needed/presented with counter information or views), as well as others'.

 

That's often hard to do in this polarized environment, so I appreciate you being willing to do the same. 

 

1 hour ago, section122 said:

I'm with you all the way up to thinking that Trump won this election is spite of all of this going on and played fairly.  I buy everything except the idea that he and the Repubs would operate above board if as you say it has gone back to at least GW. 

 

Let's take this in two pieces, only because I think it really is two different animals. There's Trump and then there's the establishment GOP which predated him.

 

The establishment GOP, which was behind Jeb, Rubio, and a few others in the 2016 election, was/is absolutely dirty. I cannot prove it, but I'm convinced (and the FISC is at least suspect of it too) that the same kind of surveillance abuses and blackmail discussed in the last post were also being done by this establishment GOP under W's tenure. They were spying illegally on US citizens (we know that's true at least thanks to Snowden) and likely their political opposition as well. Because, both the establishment DNC and establishment GOP are really the same thing. Same bird, two wings. 

 

I doubt that surprises you, but just to highlight the point, consider that there really wasn't a difference between the Bush camps and Clinton/Obama camps (and all their political offspring/candidates/officers/lieutenants/media pundits) in terms of ultimate policy agendas. They each desired to strengthen the power of the executive at the expense of the other two branches, and both used/abused the tools of mass surveillance (which they pushed past the American public by playing up the War on Terror fears they helped stoke), and both desired more regime change wars even when they ran their entire campaigns on the opposite plank (like 44 who ran on ending wars, and instead doubled them). These two camps, the Bush/Clinton DNC/GOP establishment camps, did a bit of WWE in front of the cameras talking trash about one another, but behind closed doors they were largely working towards the same policy agendas and goals.

 

Again, that's not groundbreaking news to you, I'm sure. But it bears keeping in mind. 

 

Trump was not a part of this group. In fact, he ran opposing almost everything these groups stood for. We can debate our opinions on whether or not Trump meant it or if it was just "campaign talk" to win an election (again, I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, never thought he'd win) -- but he clearly was a threat to their grip on power in DC. He upended two establishment dynasties during his run -- and entered office with the entire MiC and IC on both sides of the Atlantic TERRIFIED that he was going to put a stop to their gravy train of kickbacks, extortion, and payouts (made while waging "contained" wars in impoverished/unstable regions of the world). 

 

To add more context to this, to show how Trump's administration was/is different than what we knew as the GOP of old, they spent the first year in office gutting their own party from the inside out. We had record number of resignations and people deciding not to run for re-election almost out of nowhere (think Paul Ryan -- young, his whole career ahead of him and then suddenly... he's out?). This was the result of a massive cleanup within the party of the worst of the establishment actors (the neocon/neoliberal acolytes). This went beyond just elected officials, but extended into the bureaucratic level in the State Department and various other alphabet agencies.

 

It was a purge, by all accounts. These people were forced out -- they didn't opt to not run on their own accord. The tool used to force them out, undoubtedly was dirt -- real or political -- which if exposed would put them either in legal jeopardy or worse. This dirt was collected over the years by both sides of the establishment itself, abusing these tools of surveillance (and other means, think Epstein). Blackmail is what made DC work for the establishment for years, not the constitution. And Trump turned it against his own side of the aisle to get (most of) the rats to flee.

 

The GOP though was still "Trump's" party, so they were allowed to clean up their own mess behind the scenes. The establishment DNC will not get the same benefit. Their purge will be done in public, with the shattering of narratives and (likely) indictment of some major former administration officials like John Brennan, Clapper, Comey -- maybe(likely) more.

 

That's a VERY long winded way of me agreeing with your premise that it's not one "good" party vs one "bad" party. The thinking that there is a difference between the two at the establishment level is the illusion imo. This is NOT to say EVERY DNC member or every GOPer is "bad". Not even every establishment figure falls into those categories. There's nuance that's needed in this discussion, and I know I'm talking in more general terms at the moment but that's simply to keep the conversation from being any more long winded than it already is  

 

The second part of your original point though is the Trump of it all. If he's not "GOP", is he still as dirty as they are/were?

 

I wasn't a Trump fan going into the 2016 election. I didn't really have any opinion of him other than he was a stereotypical NYC builder with a huge ego and an even bigger personality (for better and worse). So, when the first stories about Trump/Russia started coming out, and all the smears about his corruption and likely crimes hit the bloodstream, I had no reason to doubt them. In fact, I assumed they were likely true. 

 

Then something happened to change that calculus for me. And it's perhaps the single most overlooked part of the past three years for people who hold firm to the "he's a crook!" line of thinking: he was put under the most invasive and intense investigation anyone could fathom, using the most advanced surveillance and investigatory tools and methods ever devised by mankind. 

 

I know that's hyperbolic, but it's also true. Put aside the illegal surveillance he was under in the spring and summer of 2016 before the FISC decision, and let's just focus on the "legal" investigation we now know he was under from 2017-2018. We know, for a fact, he was under active FISA surveillance for a full calendar year. If you're unfamiliar with how FISA's work, and the power they grant, that should be a conversation we have at some point because it's important. But to bottom line it, a Title I FISA warrant allowed the investigators in the FBI, the USIC, and Mueller's probe to go through every single email, text, and phone call that Trump has ever made. Past and present. And not just every email, text, and phone call Trump made, but every email, text, and phone call made by anyone who ever said hello to Trump. Even in passing. Literally, his entire family, friends, closest circle, lawyers, doctors, accountants, drivers, maids, cousins... they were all subject to this data collection and spying because of the FISA. 

 

The people using this power on Trump were looking for a crime to pin on him. Not just Russia stuff -- but anything they could use to make him toxic. Anything they could use to "lock him up". Their goal was not to clear Trump, but to find something, anything to charge him with. We know this to be true from testimony of the FBI agents and employees involved. They WANTED to find something to stick on him. 

 

... And despite this access, despite these massively invasive tools of surveillance wielded against him (not to mention the subpoenas, and interview / shakedowns they conducted on people close to Trump) what did they find? 

 

Nothing. Not a single crime.

 

They found he slept with a porn star before he was in office. That's it. 

 

That's the actual legacy of the Mueller investigation -- they put the spotlight on Trump expecting him to be as dirty as everyone else in the establishment, or at least as dirty as the public image of him led everyone to believe he was, and instead they found out he's cleaner than all of them put together. 

 

Does that mean he's not a mean, egomaniac? Nope. Does that mean he's not uncouth and brash? Not at all. It just means in terms of crimes committed throughout his entire life up through mid 2019 -- he's clean. 

 

And they've known this since 2017 (at least) and have pushed the lie that he's dirty anyway. Because that was their mission... truth be damned. 

 

That's why none of this is about Trump for me, not really. It's about the fact that if the massive power of the US government can do that to a man as rich and connected as Trump and get away with it -- they can do that to any one of us on this board. And we wouldn't be able to fight back.

 

That's terrifying to me, and I would think anyone who wants to live in a free country, rather than the illusion of one.

 

1 hour ago, section122 said:

I'm not saying the impeachment is necessary or warranted but at what time does the lid get blown off of this so it no longer happens?  That's what I was trying to get at.  I don't want to excuse Obama's actions anymore than I want Obama's actions used to excuse Trump's actions (if he did the same).  I have no problem with him being investigated.  If he did no wrong I will be relieved.

  

I hear you completely and don't disagree. If Trump is guilty, let's see the evidence and get the whole show on the road. I started looking into this as closely as I have with the intent of proving that Trump/Russia was real because I share that sentiment completely. 

 

It's just what I found while digging opened my eyes to something much bigger than just Trump or partisan warfare. That's where I'm coming from. 

 

1 hour ago, section122 said:

I fear I am rambling at this point so I apologize for not being as well written as you but hopefully I got my point across lol.  

 

You're not rambling at all -- between the two of us, I'm the one rambling.   

 

Appreciate your time and opinions. 

[Buffalo_Gal]

 

[Foxx]

13 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 Any time. I enjoy a good conversation. Thank you for allowing us to have one, because this is a really important topic that unfortunately gets muddled because of the partisan nature of politics in general. 

 

My response below is meant to be taken in the same vein -- just continuing the conversation, not trying to be combative or drag it out. I'm the sort of person who doesn't mind debate, I enjoy it because it allows me to test the mettle of my own opinions (and reassess when needed/presented with counter information or views), as well as others'.

 

That's often hard to do in this polarized environment, so I appreciate you being willing to do the same. 

 

 

Let's take this in two pieces, only because I think it really is two different animals. There's Trump and then there's the establishment GOP which predated him.

 

The establishment GOP, which was behind Jeb, Rubio, and a few others in the 2016 election, was/is absolutely dirty. I cannot prove it, but I'm convinced (and the FISC is at least suspect of it too) that the same kind of surveillance abuses and blackmail discussed in the last post were also being done by this establishment GOP under W's tenure. They were spying illegally on US citizens (we know that's true at least thanks to Snowden) and likely their political opposition as well. Because, both the establishment DNC and establishment GOP are really the same thing. Same bird, two wings. 

 

I doubt that surprises you, but just to highlight the point, consider that there really wasn't a difference between the Bush camps and Clinton/Obama camps (and all their political offspring/candidates/officers/lieutenants/media pundits) in terms of ultimate policy agendas. They each desired to strengthen the power of the executive at the expense of the other two branches, and both used/abused the tools of mass surveillance (which they pushed past the American public by playing up the War on Terror fears they helped stoke), and both desired more regime change wars even when they ran their entire campaigns on the opposite plank (like 44 who ran on ending wars, and instead doubled them). These two camps, the Bush/Clinton DNC/GOP establishment camps, did a bit of WWE in front of the cameras talking trash about one another, but behind closed doors they were largely working towards the same policy agendas and goals.

 

Again, that's not groundbreaking news to you, I'm sure. But it bears keeping in mind. 

 

Trump was not a part of this group. In fact, he ran opposing almost everything these groups stood for. We can debate our opinions on whether or not Trump meant it or if it was just "campaign talk" to win an election (again, I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, never thought he'd win) -- but he clearly was a threat to their grip on power in DC. He upended two establishment dynasties during his run -- and entered office with the entire MiC and IC on both sides of the Atlantic TERRIFIED that he was going to put a stop to their gravy train of kickbacks, extortion, and payouts (made while waging "contained" wars in impoverished/unstable regions of the world). 

 

To add more context to this, to show how Trump's administration was/is different than what we knew as the GOP of old, they spent the first year in office gutting their own party from the inside out. We had record number of resignations and people deciding not to run for re-election almost out of nowhere (think Paul Ryan -- young, his whole career ahead of him and then suddenly... he's out?). This was the result of a massive cleanup within the party of the worst of the establishment actors (the neocon/neoliberal acolytes). This went beyond just elected officials, but extended into the bureaucratic level in the State Department and various other alphabet agencies.

 

It was a purge, by all accounts. These people were forced out -- they didn't opt to not run on their own accord. The tool used to force them out, undoubtedly was dirt -- real or political -- which if exposed would put them either in legal jeopardy or worse. This dirt was collected over the years by both sides of the establishment itself, abusing these tools of surveillance (and other means, think Epstein). Blackmail is what made DC work for the establishment for years, not the constitution. And Trump turned it against his own side of the aisle to get (most of) the rats to flee.

 

The GOP though was still "Trump's" party, so they were allowed to clean up their own mess behind the scenes. The establishment DNC will not get the same benefit. Their purge will be done in public, with the shattering of narratives and (likely) indictment of some major former administration officials like John Brennan, Clapper, Comey -- maybe(likely) more.

 

That's a VERY long winded way of me agreeing with your premise that it's not one "good" party vs one "bad" party. The thinking that there is a difference between the two at the establishment level is the illusion imo. This is NOT to say EVERY DNC member or every GOPer is "bad". Not even every establishment figure falls into those categories. There's nuance that's needed in this discussion, and I know I'm talking in more general terms at the moment but that's simply to keep the conversation from being any more long winded than it already is  

 

The second part of your original point though is the Trump of it all. If he's not "GOP", is he still as dirty as they are/were?

 

I wasn't a Trump fan going into the 2016 election. I didn't really have any opinion of him other than he was a stereotypical NYC builder with a huge ego and an even bigger personality (for better and worse). So, when the first stories about Trump/Russia started coming out, and all the smears about his corruption and likely crimes hit the bloodstream, I had no reason to doubt them. In fact, I assumed they were likely true. 

 

Then something happened to change that calculus for me. And it's perhaps the single most overlooked part of the past three years for people who hold firm to the "he's a crook!" line of thinking: he was put under the most invasive and intense investigation anyone could fathom, using the most advanced surveillance and investigatory tools and methods ever devised by mankind. 

 

I know that's hyperbolic, but it's also true. Put aside the illegal surveillance he was under in the spring and summer of 2016 before the FISC decision, and let's just focus on the "legal" investigation we now know he was under from 2017-2018. We know, for a fact, he was under active FISA surveillance for a full calendar year. If you're unfamiliar with how FISA's work, and the power they grant, that should be a conversation we have at some point because it's important. But to bottom line it, a Title I FISA warrant allowed the investigators in the FBI, the USIC, and Mueller's probe to go through every single email, text, and phone call that Trump has ever made. Past and present. And not just every email, text, and phone call Trump made, but every email, text, and phone call made by anyone who ever said hello to Trump. Even in passing. Literally, his entire family, friends, closest circle, lawyers, doctors, accountants, drivers, maids, cousins... they were all subject to this data collection and spying because of the FISA. 

 

The people using this power on Trump were looking for a crime to pin on him. Not just Russia stuff -- but anything they could use to make him toxic. Anything they could use to "lock him up". Their goal was not to clear Trump, but to find something, anything to charge him with. We know this to be true from testimony of the FBI agents and employees involved. They WANTED to find something to stick on him. 

 

... And despite this access, despite these massively invasive tools of surveillance wielded against him (not to mention the subpoenas, and interview / shakedowns they conducted on people close to Trump) what did they find? 

 

Nothing. Not a single crime.

 

They found he slept with a porn star before he was in office. That's it. 

 

That's the actual legacy of the Mueller investigation -- they put the spotlight on Trump expecting him to be as dirty as everyone else in the establishment, or at least as dirty as the public image of him led everyone to believe he was, and instead they found out he's cleaner than all of them put together. 

 

Does that mean he's not a mean, egomaniac? Nope. Does that mean he's not uncouth and brash? Not at all. It just means in terms of crimes committed throughout his entire life up through mid 2019 -- he's clean. 

 

And they've known this since 2017 (at least) and have pushed the lie that he's dirty anyway. Because that was their mission... truth be damned. 

 

That's why none of this is about Trump for me, not really. It's about the fact that if the massive power of the US government can do that to a man as rich and connected as Trump and get away with it -- they can do that to any one of us on this board. And we wouldn't be able to fight back.

 

That's terrifying to me, and I would think anyone who wants to live in a free country, rather than the illusion of one.

 

  

I hear you completely and don't disagree. If Trump is guilty, let's see the evidence and get the whole show on the road. I started looking into this as closely as I have with the intent of proving that Trump/Russia was real because I share that sentiment completely. 

 

It's just what I found while digging opened my eyes to something much bigger than just Trump or partisan warfare. That's where I'm coming from. 

 

 

You're not rambling at all -- between the two of us, I'm the one rambling.   

 

Appreciate your time and opinions. 

thank you. an excellent summation of the winds faced by Trump, especially the part i have emboldened above. i hate to keep saying this but i'm not sure everyone understands how fortunate we are to have such an eloquent wordsmith amongst us.

 

 DR

[plenzmd1]

Justice Dept. watchdog finds political bias did not taint top officials running the FBI’s Russia probe but documents errors

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-watchdog-finds-political-bias-did-not-taint-top-officials-running-the-fbis-russia-probe-but-documents-other-errors/2019/11/22/4b2f51de-0d48-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html

[4merper4mer]

2 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Justice Dept. watchdog finds political bias did not taint top officials running the FBI’s Russia probe but documents errors

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-watchdog-finds-political-bias-did-not-taint-top-officials-running-the-fbis-russia-probe-but-documents-other-errors/2019/11/22/4b2f51de-0d48-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html

Also:

 

Botterill's idiotic Vesey move was not caused by hockey idiocy, just too much golf.

[Buffalo_Gal]

12 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Justice Dept. watchdog finds political bias did not taint top officials running the FBI’s Russia probe but documents errors

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-watchdog-finds-political-bias-did-not-taint-top-officials-running-the-fbis-russia-probe-but-documents-other-errors/2019/11/22/4b2f51de-0d48-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html

@plenzmd1 there is a huge rush right now for  people to set a narrative. Yesterday we saw them trying "oh, it was just a low-level flunky", and "oh, that craptastic steele dossier was an a-ok source" which it was not. The OIG report released earlier this week basically said, "nut uh" 

But Horowitz will conclude that the application still had a proper legal and factual basis, and, more broadly, that FBI officials did not act improperly in opening the Russia investigation, according to the officials, who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive report.

I know it is difficult to believe, but WaPo is spinning, and spinning hard. They are either being lied to and believe it or being lied to and happy to pass on the lies or making up lies. The printing of the lies, the slanting, the misrepresentations, are why few believe them as an accurate source (and when when something is accurate we say, "see even the... )

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Buffalo_Gal

[3rdnlng]

18 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Justice Dept. watchdog finds political bias did not taint top officials running the FBI’s Russia probe but documents errors

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-watchdog-finds-political-bias-did-not-taint-top-officials-running-the-fbis-russia-probe-but-documents-other-errors/2019/11/22/4b2f51de-0d48-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html

You're using the WP for information in conjunction with misdeeds by the Intelligence Community? They have about as much integrity as Jeffrey Epstein in a locker room full of middle school cheerleaders. This is the part of the game that's been predicted as the IC's disinformation period.

[Big Gun]

19 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Stop, you won, just stop

telling lies!! 

You're a clown, DR is an enshrined HOFer, you and a few others stink at tee ball! 

[Deranged Rhino]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnWHuber/status/1198260768720007174

[Buffalo_Gal]

5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

 

Yup. They were pushing the low-level-flunky theory yesterday.  This must be some storm about to blow-in to DC. ? 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

Good ole Georgie-P pushing his books. Shouldn't he be asking for votes?