Daniel Jeremiah - Jonah Williams is someone to watch

[MrEpsYtown]

Here's some info on Dion Dawkins. He started at left tackle for Temple for three years. His true freshmen year he started a couple of game at left and right tackle. His sophomore-senior year he started at left tackle exclusively. At the senior bowl he played really great at both guard spots and and also played really well at left tackle. Pre Draft, people felt he was best at guard. Not sure why though...all his measurables, 3 cone, and super longs arms point to tackle. Anyway, his rookie year, he got thrown into the guard spot for like 6 plays and was good. He played left tackle the rest of the way. In his rookie training camp, he took mostly right tackle reps and did not look great. He took left tackle reps too, and did not look great. The bottom line is that he looked pretty terrible in rookie camp and struggled all around in terms of trying to implement the techniques that Juan Castillo was teaching. It was not until he was thrust into a game at left tackle that he showed what he could do. 

• So he played really well at left tackle his rookie year, good enough for this regime to trade Cordy Glenn. 
• He played really well at guard at the senior bowl, both right and left guard. He also played left tackle there. 
• He looked terrible in training camp his rookie year, wherever he was put. 
• He has played a little bit on the right side. Most of his experience is at left tackle. 
• He might be better at guard than he is a left tackle, but he has not proven that he can't play left tackle. There is more evidence that he can, than there is evidence that he can't. 
• Juan Castillo's techniques forced him to re-learn everything he learned for four years at Temple, so a new line coach likely does a lot for him. 
• His arm length and other measures say he should be a left tackle. (His arms are longer than Williams, Dillard, guys like that )
• The idea that he can't play the right side of the line is simply not true
• He himself is going to say that he wants to be a left tackle. Like I said above, he should not want to move off the $$$$ position and he deserves an opportunity to prove himself before he is moved. 

[Max Fischer]

3 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I believe that OL is important, but I believe that that both OT positions are harder to fill and require better players than G.  I also don't think the comparison of Jonah Williams to Zach Martin is a good one.  Martin is much stronger and more powerful than Williams. 

 

I know that you can't necessarily judge a football player by how their body looks, but at the Combine Williams' body didn't look like a top athlete and he didn't really measure or test as one, either.

 

You're right, you can't judge a player by how they look. Likewise, there are many guards who "fit the profile" much better than a Zach Martin but are nowhere near as good.  Jonah Williams is a case in point.  He's a great because he a superior football player, he understand the game more than most, where to be, how to play, etc. He is off-the-charts technical player who uses his leverage perfectly, which means he can play much "heavier" than those 25-75 pounds bigger, which also provides him outstanding versatility.  What's intriguing is that evaluators believe Williams can get much, much better.  

[Max Fischer]

59 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I understand this and people have said this about a hundred times on here. Jonah Williams is nowhere near the prospect that Nelson was. Not even close. Ill do an SAT analogy here. Jonah Williams is to Quentin Nelson as Shaq Lawson is to Khalil Mack. That's what we are talking about here. Williams in the top ten is a huge reach. Nelson was a plug and play dominator at the position. Williams has a better chance of being Luke Joeckel than he does of being Nelson. 

 

Talk about reach. No one thought Shaq Lawson was an instant plug-and -play, instant 10-year starter with perennial all-pro potential.  Good yes, but not a major talent. Nelson is indeed a special player but Williams could easily be start at OT or G, and could be an all-pro guard by Year 2.  

[Johnny Hammersticks]

3 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Talk about reach. No one thought Shaq Lawson was an instant plug-and -play, instant 10-year starter with perennial all-pro potential.  Good yes, but not a major talent. Nelson is indeed a special player but Williams could easily be start at OT or G, and could be an all-pro guard by Year 2.  

 

Funny.  You appear to be the only one projecting Jonah to be an “instant plug and play, instant 10 year starter with perennial all-pro potential.”  Where are you getting this from?

[Max Fischer]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Funny.  You appear to be the only one projecting Jonah to be an “instant plug and play, instant 10 year starter with perennial all-pro potential.”  Where are you getting this from?

 

Who isn't?

[MrEpsYtown]

11 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Talk about reach. No one thought Shaq Lawson was an instant plug-and -play, instant 10-year starter with perennial all-pro potential.  Good yes, but not a major talent. Nelson is indeed a special player but Williams could easily be start at OT or G, and could be an all-pro guard by Year 2.  

 

This is revisionist history. Pre draft Shaq Lawson was compared to Tamba Hali and Brian Orakpo, a powerful, dominating edge player. 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

9 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Who isn't?

 

Common man!  Post a link of any scout or “draft expert” who has Jonah tabbed as a perennial all-pro NFL guard.  I’ll wait...

[Max Fischer]

3 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

This is revisionist history. Pre draft Shaq Lawson was compared to Tamba Hali and Brian Orakpo, a powerful, dominating edge player. 

 

Oh boy. I don't recall at any time Shaq was considered a Top 10 player, let alone potential Top 5. I'm not trying to "build up" Jonah Williams because any 10 minute search will have top draft evaluators saying he's an extremely gifted offensive lineman.  There is no doubt he'd instantly be the best guard and very likely to win either tackle position. All of which are immediate and long-term needs.  

Just now, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Common man!  Post a link of any scout or “draft expert” who has Jonah tabbed as a perennial all-pro NFL guard.  I’ll wait...

 

Will you take "franchise?"  Would that make you feel better? 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 minute ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Oh boy. I don't recall at any time Shaq was considered a Top 10 player, let alone potential Top 5. I'm not trying to "build up" Jonah Williams because any 10 minute search will have top draft evaluators saying he's an extremely gifted offensive lineman.  There is no doubt he'd instantly be the best guard and very likely to win either tackle position. All of which are immediate and long-term needs.  

 

Will you take "franchise?"  Would that make you feel better? 

 

Dude, you’re making Jonah Williams sound like Quenton Nelson.  The latter was pretty much universally regarded at a top 5-7 pick and a generational interior lineman.  Just stop.

[thebandit27]

25 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Dude, you’re making Jonah Williams sound like Quenton Nelson.  The latter was pretty much universally regarded at a top 5-7 pick and a generational interior lineman.  Just stop.

 

A page ago, the same poster said that Jonah's FLOOR was a perennial all pro guard.

 

I think perhaps that the poster is just prone to hyperbole 

[MrEpsYtown]

29 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Oh boy. I don't recall at any time Shaq was considered a Top 10 player, let alone potential Top 5. I'm not trying to "build up" Jonah Williams because any 10 minute search will have top draft evaluators saying he's an extremely gifted offensive lineman.  There is no doubt he'd instantly be the best guard and very likely to win either tackle position. All of which are immediate and long-term needs.  

 

I don't want to create an argument here, but this is simply not true. Most mock drafts had Shaq in that 5-15 range, which is where people are projecting Jonah right now. From what I remember the Browns were popular mock spot. I think my comparison, or analogy is the right one. I think Williams is few notches below Zach Martin as a guard (who went 15 or 16 iI believe) and I think he is basically Riley Reiff if he plays tackle. I think he can be a very good guard. I think that there may be some potential big time defensive players there at 9 and taking Williams at nine is a reach imo. The talent you are passing on to plug a possible 10 year guard in is just bad drafting. I think he goes in the 15-25 range. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The OL as a whole was night and day for sure.

 

Nelson was a big component of that, but so too was 2nd round guard-turned-tackle Braden Smith, street FA Mark Glowinski, and Ryan Kelly's return to health.

 

And I know you recognize this, but would that OL and RB group have been the driving force of a 10-win team with Jacoby Brissett under center?

 

No doubt guard is important, and with the growth of the interior pass rusher types like Donald, Cox, and Chris Jones, it's hardly a "just throw this sub par OT or larger-than-average center in there" affair to fill the spots.

 

I simply don't think it's the difference-making position that would impel me to draft one in the top 10. Not when we see the best OG in football hit the open market in 2 of the last 3 offseasons.

I agree that Luck was huge, but I'm also of a mind that an elite guard can make a huge difference. Just look at the Dallas situation. Zack Martin (plus other good o-line players, to be sure) helped a mediocre back - DeMarco Murray - produce one of the best RB seasons in NFL history, and that running game made a good passing attack elite (Romo had a rating of 113.2 that season). I'm not saying Williams is that player, mind you. I just am skeptical of much of the conventional wisdom about "elite positions" outside of QB (and yes, I know Luck makes all the difference). Everyone talks about the importance of great edge players, but the most dominating d-linemen these days are guys like Fletcher Cox and Aaron Donald, not Justin Houston. Who is gonna block them?

Edited April 10, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Logic]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

A page ago, the same poster said that Jonah's FLOOR was a perennial all pro guard.

 

I think perhaps that the poster is just prone to hyperbole 

The thing that makes me laugh about draft season is that none of us know a damn thing.

We all have opinions based on maybe having watched a few college games, maybe a few Youtube highlights, maybe reading a writeup about his measurables. WE'RE ALL JUST GUESSING!

So when one person laughs off another's draft prognostication (i.e. mildly educated guess) because it doesn't match THEIR mildly educated guess, it makes me laugh.

We're all just guessing. None of us know. If we knew, we wouldn't just be chatting on a message board, we'd be collecting a paycheck from an NFL team.

Williams' floor could be "out of the league in three years" or it could be "Pro Bowl guard". None of us know. 

[Max Fischer]

4 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

If anyone actually believed that Jonah's floor was perennial all pro guard, then he'd be talked about as a top 5 pick without prejudice.

 

Regarding the Colts, perhaps you didn't watch much of them, but I'd like to submit that their transformation had more to do with getting their all pro QB back on the field under the guidance of an offensive minded HC than it did the drafting of a LG.

 

Nelson's great, but I let's remember that teams find guards that are 90% as good in rounds 3-7 every year.

 

Spending a premium pick on a non-premium position is a bad investment.

 

I know you are just trying to score points, but the key word you (of course mistakenly) omitted was "potential" perennial all-pro guard.  Which he does.  Williams would easily be the best guard in the class.  

 

 

[Logic]

4 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

If anyone actually believed that Jonah's floor was perennial all pro guard, then he'd be talked about as a top 5 pick without prejudice.

 

I don't believe this to be true. The best comparison for Jonah Williams, in my mind, is Zack Martin. Both were quality college tackles who were deemed not to have the size to stay at tackle in the NFL.

Here are scouting reports for each:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/zack-martin?id=2543480

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jonah-williams?id=32195749-4c13-2676-fb3e-2b3d97cbfc66

Martin was projected as an early to mid 1st rounder and, lo and behold, he was drafted 16th. He has made 5 Pro Bowls.

Williams likely will ALSO be drafted in the teens. He, similarly to Martin DOES have the capacity to be a perennial Pro Bowl guard. If the word you have a problem with is "floor", then fine. Technically, any drafted player's floor is "total bust, out of the league". My PREDICTION (which I admit is as likely to be wrong as any other fan's prediction) is that his floor is Pro Bowl guard. It's not as if I pulled that out of my ass. Read just about anyone's scouting report on the guy. No one really seems to believe in him as a tackle, but just about everyone seems to believe he's OG1 in this draft and has the potential to be excellent inside.

[Max Fischer]

6 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

I don't want to create an argument here, but this is simply not true. Most mock drafts had Shaq in that 5-15 range, which is where people are projecting Jonah right now. From what I remember the Browns were popular mock spot. I think my comparison, or analogy is the right one. I think Williams is few notches below Zach Martin as a guard (who went 15 or 16 iI believe) and I think he is basically Riley Reiff if he plays tackle. I think he can be a very good guard. I think that there may be some potential big time defensive players there at 9 and taking Williams at nine is a reach imo. The talent you are passing on to plug a possible 10 year guard in is just bad drafting. I think he goes in the 15-25 range. 

 

I guess we'll see but the point of all this was the dismissal of Jonah Williams as a Bills pick at #9 and somehow that would be a mistake. Personally, I would like Ed Oliver but would be thrilled to get the best technically sound offensive linemen in the draft, who could easily be on upgrade at tackle and certainly at guard.  He has the potential to be a solid to outstanding player for a decade.

 

If he plays at guard, fine, but it would no longer be a team weakness. He'd likely be the best guard the Bills have had in many years, and if guards we so easy to find in Rounds 3-7, then someone explain why are so many teams desperate for at least average guard play and why teams spend so much on just "good" free agents.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

 

 

I simply don't think it's the difference-making position that would impel me to draft one in the top 10. Not when we see the best OG in football hit the open market in 2 of the last 3 offseasons.

I think that this is at least partially because it costs the same amount to apply the franchise tag to a Guard as it does to tag a Tackle. Am I correct?

 

Imo having a very good Guard at a bargain price for 5 years is a great thing. That said, #9 could be a bit early. I guess that much depends on the quality of the draft. Imo this one is quite average. How about you?

[RyanC883]

I don't see it happening.  And the OP's mock draft, it indicates the Bills will "take a Josh, just not sure which one."   Well, since those were arguably the top 2 QB's left after Mayfield and Darnold were taken, and the Bills were known to be QB hunting, it didn't take much for him to mock Allen to us.  

[thebandit27]

16 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

If his floor is perrenial all-pro right guard, what’s not to love?

 

40 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

I know you are just trying to score points, but the key word you (of course mistakenly) omitted was "potential" perennial all-pro guard.  Which he does.  Williams would easily be the best guard in the class.  

 

 

 

I have no interest in impressing anyone, so you might want to re-think what you "know" about my purpose in posting here.  See above-quote post.

 

As for Williams being easily the best guard in the class, well, I'm not so sure that's true.  Personally, I think he's a far better fit at center than he is at guard. I'm not sure he's got the anchorage to hold up against the stouter DTs, nor the hand-speed to beat the Fletcher Cox-type hand-fighting quick DTs. To me, if I'm expecting an all-pro guard from a guy, he needs to be able to handle those dudes 1-on-1.  As a center, he can put his exceptional technique and play-recognition to much greater use, while still relying on his neighbor to assist him in combo blocks to hide some of his athletic shortcomings.

[purple haze]

9 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

Skins fans are the last ones you should listen to. If there ever was a block o' morons, they qualify.

 

I'm well acquainted with Skins fans.  Have a couple in the family.  They can get real delusional about the team as a whole, but they are all about that football.  They are ride or die with the Skins.  From listening and reading Nsekeh excels at LT.  Isn't as good at RT.  Same as what some around here say about Dawkins.  We shall see soon enough.