MJS Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 21 hours ago, Augie said: You are correct. You are indeed in the minority. ? At the time of the extension everyone celebrated. So people did believe that he earned it and would continue to play well. Then he sucked. So no, ultimately he did not earn his money, but at the time of the signing people expected that he would. 1
Just Joshin' Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 Reminds me of the old threads to not draft Orakpo because he was from Texas and so was lazy Williams.
Augie Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 56 minutes ago, MJS said: At the time of the extension everyone celebrated. So people did believe that he earned it and would continue to play well. Then he sucked. So no, ultimately he did not earn his money, but at the time of the signing people expected that he would. At the time, we did not have the benefit of hindsight..... What a waste. They guy could have been so great. I’ll just hope he makes the most of his life, unlike his career. Not a terrible career, but just a fraction of what it might have been.
GETTOTHE50 Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 Does he wear a captains hat? If so, I’d be worried.
blacklabel Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 21 hours ago, peterpan said: I personally believe Ed Oliver is this years Dareus. Super talented, but mentally a selfish cancer. He 'injured' his knee, but milked it and sat out during the season. Then the on-field argument with his coach, looked really really bad. Then he sat out his bowl game to avoid injury. One of those things is excusable. All 3 show a trend. I'd stay away from Oliver myself, and I wouldn't doubt other teams have him off their boards because of it. Nick Bosa played three games last season, got injured (could've returned) but chose to sit out the rest of his final season at Ohio State to prepare for the draft. Did he milk it too? Should he be avoided as well? Guys that know they're gonna get drafted high will sometimes decide to prep themselves for that as opposed to playing out their last games in college. The jacket thing with Oliver was way overblown. Disagreements happen. The coach was out of line as well. NFL teams really don't have an issue with players deciding to not play as a means to avoid injury so they can maintain their draft projection, which, you know, they only ever get one shot at. An injury can mean the difference between being drafted in round one or round four and losing out on millions. I think Oliver will be fine and I wouldn't mind seeing him get drafted here.
Jay_Fixit Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 23 hours ago, glazeduck said: A lot of respected NFL people think he's the best DT to come out since Warren Sapp... But sure, let's take an undersized DT who struggled to dominate in the AAC... Struggled to dominate? 53 TFL and 13 sacks in 32 games as an interior lineman is struggling to dominate while being the opposing teams focus each game? Hot takin...
glazeduck Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 Quinnen Williams had 26 and 10 in 24 games, and half of those games came as a backup against SEC linemen. Perhaps "struggled" wasn't the right word, but if Ed Oliver is a top 10 pick, I would've expected him to be an absolute wrecking ball for Houston, especially considering the lack of talent across the LOS. 1 1/2 TFLs and 1/3 of a sack per game isn't exactly wrecking things in my opinion. Now juxtapose that against NFL linemen... He's got high bust potential in my mind (and I don't even give a $#!+ about the coach blowup stuff, but that causes questions too...) 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Just Joshin' said: Reminds me of the old threads to not draft Orakpo because he was from Texas and so was lazy Williams. Orakpo is just a big ol cupcake
Bill from NYC Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 On 4/8/2019 at 12:05 PM, 2003Contenders said: They were both stud defensive linemen coming out of Alabama. The similarities end there. Dareus had some focus/maturity issues even before his contract extension. This is 100% accurate. Things might change (sometimes people do when given 25 million or so) but Quinnen has never had any reported personality issues that I know of and I follow the team. He seems like a great kid. Imo Dareus was a lot heavier than Quinnen and harder to move off of scrimmage. Quinnen is quicker and faster. He came to Alabama at 265 lbs. It is important to remember that Quinnen sat for a long time behind great players and really only has one year as a starter, but it was an extremely good one. The kid is top notch but I must admit that I have seen him get tired. Count me as one of the few who thinks that he will be there at #9.
T master Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 On 4/8/2019 at 11:11 AM, billsbackto81 said: Dareus is the pro I've seen most compared to Williams by many pundits. Oliver because of similar size and attributes has been compared to a John Randle type. If he has half the motor that Randle had sign him up that guy was a BA & feared by most offensive coordinators in the league while he played heck he probably still gives some old timers flash back night terrors !!
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 2 hours ago, blacklabel said: Nick Bosa played three games last season, got injured (could've returned) but chose to sit out the rest of his final season at Ohio State to prepare for the draft. Did he milk it too? Should he be avoided as well? Guys that know they're gonna get drafted high will sometimes decide to prep themselves for that as opposed to playing out their last games in college. The jacket thing with Oliver was way overblown. Disagreements happen. The coach was out of line as well. NFL teams really don't have an issue with players deciding to not play as a means to avoid injury so they can maintain their draft projection, which, you know, they only ever get one shot at. An injury can mean the difference between being drafted in round one or round four and losing out on millions. I think Oliver will be fine and I wouldn't mind seeing him get drafted here. Yes. What makes you say that? Honestly, I don't know what NFL teams think about players sitting out. I know what I think--that guys who sit out are prone to making financial decisions that prioritize their well being over the teams. That is 100% their right. Heck, its maybe even the smart choice from their perspective, especially because you can expect NFL teams to make similar financial decisions. But fair or not, its not a guy I would want with my top 10 pick. I want someone who is irrationally loyal and intensely motivated. Especially with that pick.
billsbackto81 Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, T master said: If he has half the motor that Randle had sign him up that guy was a BA & feared by most offensive coordinators in the league while he played heck he probably still gives some old timers flash back night terrors !! I still remember the commercial he did chasing the chicken in a Brett Favre jersey. Hilarious!!
blacklabel Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Yes. What makes you say that? Honestly, I don't know what NFL teams think about players sitting out. I know what I think--that guys who sit out are prone to making financial decisions that prioritize their well being over the teams. That is 100% their right. Heck, its maybe even the smart choice from their perspective, especially because you can expect NFL teams to make similar financial decisions. But fair or not, its not a guy I would want with my top 10 pick. I want someone who is irrationally loyal and intensely motivated. Especially with that pick. I don't think loyalty really exists in business and football is a business. Teams really don't have loyalty to their players as we see year after year longtime vets getting cut from teams they've played for for years, so why would any player have that type of loyalty? Sure, every now and then you get guys who wanna play for one team their whole career or whatever, but that's not the norm. The way I see it, if the teams don't have an issue with it, then why should I bother? Bosa and Oliver are judged on their talent first and foremost and as it is today, their talent gets them taken in the top 10 picks. Regardless if they chose to sit out. Just how it is.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, blacklabel said: I don't think loyalty really exists in business and football is a business. Teams really don't have loyalty to their players as we see year after year longtime vets getting cut from teams they've played for for years, so why would any player have that type of loyalty? Sure, every now and then you get guys who wanna play for one team their whole career or whatever, but that's not the norm. The way I see it, if the teams don't have an issue with it, then why should I bother? Bosa and Oliver are judged on their talent first and foremost and as it is today, their talent gets them taken in the top 10 picks. Regardless if they chose to sit out. Just how it is. I mean more loyalty to the guys you play with. It is 100% true that in most of the NFL guys will play despite being injured (or something else) to stand with their teammates. Outside the case of injury, think about contract hold outs--how was Bell received by the guys in the locker room when he sat out? Well, with Bosa and Oliver, guess what they have done-they essentially pulled a Bell on their teammates. Is that the guy you want on the Bills? Will teams draft them anyway? Sure, some will. That doesn't mean all, or even most, will. And even if they do, the guy may fall on the draft chart because the risk isn't worth the reward. Oliver was originally projected to go top 3. Now he has fallen to closer to the middle of the first. Why do you think that is? Might have to do with that fight he had with his coach and the fact that he sat out.
blacklabel Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I mean more loyalty to the guys you play with. It is 100% true that in most of the NFL guys will play despite being injured (or something else) to stand with their teammates. Outside the case of injury, think about contract hold outs--how was Bell received by the guys in the locker room when he sat out? Well, with Bosa and Oliver, guess what they have done-they essentially pulled a Bell on their teammates. Is that the guy you want on the Bills? Will teams draft them anyway? Sure, some will. That doesn't mean all, or even most, will. And even if they do, the guy may fall on the draft chart because the risk isn't worth the reward. Oliver was originally projected to go top 3. Now he has fallen to closer to the middle of the first. Why do you think that is? Might have to do with that fight he had with his coach and the fact that he sat out. Welp, a lot of the prospect rankings and hype we see ends up being media driven. For instance, we've been hearing for months how good Dwayne Haskins might be, before Murray declared, he was viewed as the first QB off the board. Recently, it's been said that the hype on Haskins was a result of the media and he may not be the second or even third QB taken. The same thing happens with other prospects and maybe that happened with Oliver. He was seen as a top 3-5 pick based on his sophomore season, during his junior year, guys like Quinnen Williams, Josh Allen, etc. began to emerge. I mean, really all it takes is one big-time season in college to end up on the NFL's radar. So, I don't really see Oliver's slight decline on the board as a result of a spat with a coach or him missing a bowl game, more just some other players had better seasons and are ranked a bit higher. As for what types of players we want on a team, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. Teams are gonna do what they're gonna do. I think McBeane have done a great job at creating culture and identifying the types of traits they want in their players. But, again, talent wins out over all, hence their interest in Antonio Brown. Dude is a major pain in the rump but teams will deal with his BS because he produces on the field. And I think college teammates understand why players essentially leave the team in preparation for the draft. Like I said, these dudes only get one shot at being drafted and for most of them it's a lifelong goal to play in the NFL so they're going to do whatever it takes to get drafted as highly as possible, even if that means departing from their teammates. If I'm on a team with a player who could be a first round pick, I'm rooting for that guy to achieve his dreams at the highest possible level. Yeah, I also would like to have him help the team win but again, business is business and I'd simply see that type of thing as a business decision. No big deal to me. I understand it seems to be a bigger deal to you and that's fine, it can certainly be a gamble to bring in a guy with some attitude or character concerns, but they're all a gamble. Even "surefire day one starters/probably career All-Pros" are a gamble (who remembers Aaron Curry??). You just never know.
Buffalo716 Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, thenorthremembers said: I feel like we are comparing a wide variety of vastly different players. Dareus is a more compact player which gave him the ability to play in two gap schemes, but he was also athletic enough to play one gap. However, he probably isn't ever going to give you the ability to use him in a 3-4 as a 3 tech. From the tape I watched on Williams he was asked to get up the field a lot, he did take on double teams but he wasnt a traditional 2 gap space eater by any means. He has scheme versatility in the fact he can probably play 3 tech in a 3-4 defense, or play inside in a one gap 4-3 scheme. I think Dareus is a bad comparison, feel like Muhammed Wilkerson is probably more accurate. He has amazing hands, just incredible to watch how effortless it is for him to shed blocks without allowing the guards and centers to get into his body. But he can be inconsistent, watch the Georgia game where their big dogs ate his lunch. That game made me a big fan of Georgia's center Lamont Gaillard. Oliver is a different sort of player altogether. The numbers may not be there, but he played everywhere on that defense. Despite his size Houston used him as 1 tech to eat up blockers which he did effectively. They used him inside as a 3 tech. They even used him as a edge rusher. That is why he is so unique. He can effectively play any position in your front seven given the need, and yes he also dropped as an outside linebacker on some plays. He can get overwhelmed physically when he doesn't use proper leverage, but when you talk about scheme versatility he is about as good as it gets in this draft. I wonder what his production would look like in a scheme where he is allowed to play 3 tech on 1st/2nd down, and then moved to edge on obvious passing downs. His get off is about as good as it gets. The 3 technique is a 43 Defensive Tackle alignment 95% of the time . 43 Dtackles play a 3 tech and 1 tech In a 34, Defensive ends play a 5 technique or 4 tech 95% of the times a 3 tech in a 34 in seldomly used outside of maybe 1 front Edited April 9, 2019 by Buffalo716
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 On 4/8/2019 at 9:41 AM, Augie said: You are correct. You are indeed in the minority. ? No he isn't. Almost everyone wanted Whaley to sign Dareus to an extension. You can't have a revisionist history. You can blame Dareus for not living up to the contract or the coaches for not motivating/utilizing him. You can blame Whaley for not having the foresight for assessing Dareus' response to getting the big contract. But you can't go back and say he didn't earn the new contract. He was a dominant run stuffing DT with a little bit of a pass rush. Almost everyone wanted to keep him and there is little doubt he would have gotten the same money from a different team. 1
thenorthremembers Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: The 3 technique is a 43 Defensive Tackle alignment 95% of the time . 43 Dtackles play a 3 tech and 1 tech In a 34, Defensive ends play a 5 technique or 4 tech 95% of the times a 3 tech in a 34 in seldomly used outside of maybe 1 front You're correct. My bad there, I meant to say 5 tech. Which I believe is what Wilkerson played in the Jets defense.
Buffalo716 Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 Just now, thenorthremembers said: You're correct. My bad there, I meant to say 5 tech. Which I believe is what Wilkerson played in the Jets defense. Yes and he was always a monster. Prototype 5 tech
thenorthremembers Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Yes and he was always a monster. Prototype 5 tech Absolutely loved him with the Jets. Thats what I see when I watch Williams. I don't think he gives you as much flexibility as Oliver, but I also don't think he is Dareus.
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