SouthNYfan Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 48 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said: Yeah. I said it. And I don't care about the fact that he's 5'8" tall. We all know shorter QB's have a decent chance at success (see Flutie, Tyrod and Brees) What I'm referring to here is "throwing mechanics". Let's all agree that Kyler is a natural baseball athlete. In fact, it's his first love. He chose football but baseball is in his blood; otherwise, there would be no uproar when he chose football. I've watched a lot of film on QB's each year (see my previous QB evaluation threads where I hone in on mechanics, velocity, accuracy, free line press speed and rapid eye momentum agility (all QB's are scored on these criteria). Here's what I see with Kyler Murray: 1) Floppy elbow 2) Pseudo side-arm 3) Snaps his wrist on release 4) Eye tracking and target transition is delayed 5) Baseball throwing style for infielders (pushes the ball rather than creating the traditional 90 degree bracket between humerus, ulna, forearm and bicep) With all this in mind, and given how much I read about and watch baseball (which is significant), there's one condition that no one considered when drafting a baseball player: "baseball elbow". It's the condition which many baseball players suffer from attributable to the snapping motion of ligaments within the elbow joint compartment typically requiring ice immersion therapy and then, surgery for compartment release. He's been throwing this way for so many years he'll never correct the faulty mechanics. He'll be on IR within the first two years and out of football in three years. Feel free to re-visit this link in 36 months. I told ya so. By the way, if you're going to try to do an " in depth analysis" of somebody's mechanics, your should do your research first. There is so much wrong with your post. "5) Baseball throwing style for infielders (pushes the ball rather than creating the traditional 90 degree bracket between humerus, ulna, forearm and bicep)" What are you talking about? Baseball infielders don't push the ball. They whip it. The force on the medial aspect of the elbow joint causes increased strain on the medial collateral (aka ulnar collateral) ligament This is called a "valgus force" This is increased exponentially when dropping the elbow below the shoulder, or "sidearming" the ball repeatedly. This causes strain to the medial aspect of the elbow complex. Surgical repair of the ligament, aka Tommy John, is when the ligament is torn. I've never seen them do a compartment release, unless it's an ulnar nerve transposition. This has nothing to do with "90 degree bracket between humerus, ulnar, forearm and bicep" unless you're talking about keeping the elbow above or at shoulder height while throwing. Your ulna is your forearm (along with your radius), and your humerus is your upper arm, which is where your biceps brachii is located. 3 2 1
Formerly Allan in MD Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 Every short quarterback that's been successful in the NFL has been ragged on incessantly, for one reason or other, prior to starting their NFL careers. It goes way back to Jim Finks and progresses thru Flutie, Brees, and Wilson. Let's just wait and see.
KD in CA Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, CountryCletus said: Fergy, you forgot to mention his posture. He stands too upright in the pocket, he will tip over too easy and take a lot of unnecessary sacks... bound to have knee issues/injuries He's going to be the Guam of quarterbacks. 1 1
Gugny Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said: This was a brave prediction, thanks. You might very well be right too but imo the Cards would be nuts to not draft him. Watch their attendance increase, and all that goes along with it (parking, beer, food, jerseys, etc). This is pure profit for an owner because the TV contract covers their payroll and operating expenses. Much of this is also in cash (not to imply that anyone would cheat on their taxes mind you lol). I completely expect Murray to go at #1 whether he deserves to or not. All owners want to make money. Some want to win, too. (Seems like we finally have one of these) Any team who drafts Murray 1st overall just wants to make money. 1 1
Bubba Gump Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 Gonna be a huge bust, Jamarcus Russell level bust. Way too small to go against the fastest, biggest players in the world. This ain't college no more. Doug Flutie was somewhat successful decades ago when players weren't machines like they are now. Drew Brews is successful but is also 4 inches taller than him. I think he fails miserably if he doesn't get killed running for his life first. Hopefully he stays healthy enough to have a career in baseball and become the next Jose Altuve.
Bill from NYC Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 41 minutes ago, Gugny said: All owners want to make money. Some want to win, too. (Seems like we finally have one of these) Any team who drafts Murray 1st overall just wants to make money. I do not dispute the above.
SouthNYfan Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said: Gonna be a huge bust, Jamarcus Russell level bust. Way too small to go against the fastest, biggest players in the world. This ain't college no more. Doug Flutie was somewhat successful decades ago when players weren't machines like they are now. Drew Brews is successful but is also 4 inches taller than him. I think he fails miserably if he doesn't get killed running for his life first. Hopefully he stays healthy enough to have a career in baseball and become the next Jose Altuve. I mean drew is 2 inches taller. But close enough. He looks like a small cornerback trying to play QB. He's got a tiny frame.
rodneykm Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 Count me in on the "he'll be a bust" side of the argument.
Augie Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 2 hours ago, CountryCletus said: Fergy, you forgot to mention his posture. He stands too upright in the pocket, he will tip over too easy and take a lot of unnecessary sacks... bound to have knee issues/injuries Well, the good news is....he doesn’t have far to fall! 1
Boatdrinks Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 Whether it’s mechancis or his diminutive size , I am fully expecting he’ll be a bust. He’s no Baker Mayfield, though the football talking heads on TV are trying to sell him as such. Only two or three short ,small QBs have had success over the last 3 or four decades. Murray will be on the scrap heap rather than join the outliers. 1
Augie Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 If this is baseball related, might he go all Chuck Knoblauch on us? Or, in football terms....”LateSeasonFitzy”?
dpberr Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 I have no idea what the Cardinals are thinking in drafting him 1st overall unless it's all just smokescreen to disguise what they really want to do. IMO, drafting a sub 5'10" quarterback who has a questionable commitment to football #1 OVERALL is a level of Matt Millen absurdity not see in a while. I can see Murray having a really bad first year, retiring, and going off to play baseball. 1
BringBackFergy Posted April 4, 2019 Author Posted April 4, 2019 2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: By the way, if you're going to try to do an " in depth analysis" of somebody's mechanics, your should do your research first. There is so much wrong with your post. "5) Baseball throwing style for infielders (pushes the ball rather than creating the traditional 90 degree bracket between humerus, ulna, forearm and bicep)" What are you talking about? Baseball infielders don't push the ball. They whip it. The force on the medial aspect of the elbow joint causes increased strain on the medial collateral (aka ulnar collateral) ligament This is called a "valgus force" This is increased exponentially when dropping the elbow below the shoulder, or "sidearming" the ball repeatedly. This causes strain to the medial aspect of the elbow complex. Surgical repair of the ligament, aka Tommy John, is when the ligament is torn. I've never seen them do a compartment release, unless it's an ulnar nerve transposition. This has nothing to do with "90 degree bracket between humerus, ulnar, forearm and bicep" unless you're talking about keeping the elbow above or at shoulder height while throwing. Your ulna is your forearm (along with your radius), and your humerus is your upper arm, which is where your biceps brachii is located. I guess you haven’t watched a lot of football (or baseball for that matter). The abduction bracket (90 degrees between extension humerus and ulna) is a standard method for scouting QB mechanics. I noticed you didn’t even comment on the lateral target tracking which is criteria #2. I see you have a background in anatomy but fail to appreciate the outright stress put on the ligament plus laxity in the elbow compartment with the baseball style snap of his wrist (directly linked to “baseball elbow”). Getting excited for Mets home opener today. I’ll watch baseball from now until October. I suggest you do the same.
Gugny Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: What are you talking about? Baseball infielders don't push the ball. They whip it. Two words: Chuck Knoblauch and Steve Sax.
KD in CA Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, dpberr said: I have no idea what the Cardinals are thinking in drafting him 1st overall unless it's all just smokescreen to disguise what they really want to do. IMO, drafting a sub 5'10" quarterback who has a questionable commitment to football #1 OVERALL is a level of Matt Millen absurdity not see in a while. I can see Murray having a really bad first year, retiring, and going off to play baseball. The Oakland A's agree!
SouthNYfan Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 27 minutes ago, Gugny said: Two words: Chuck Knoblauch and Steve Sax. Jesus don't talk about Chuck.
Albany,n.y. Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Bubba Gump said: Gonna be a huge bust, Jamarcus Russell level bust. Way too small to go against the fastest, biggest players in the world. This ain't college no more. Doug Flutie was somewhat successful decades ago when players weren't machines like they are now. Drew Brews is successful but is also 4 inches taller than him. I think he fails miserably if he doesn't get killed running for his life first. Hopefully he stays healthy enough to have a career in baseball and become the next Jose Altuve. Jamarcus Russell was a bust because he was a fat lazy slob who didn't want to work at being a pro athlete. As I said before, I'm not into going on a board and predicting failure. I will mention something though: Years ago I thought Vince Young was going to be a massive bust & I told everyone who would listen. Then he goes out and surprises me his rookie year and I vowed to stop getting on QBs coming out of college and predicting doom & gloom for their careers. Funny how Young turned out, even getting some preseason snaps with my team near the very end of his career. 1
SouthNYfan Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said: I guess you haven’t watched a lot of football (or baseball for that matter). The abduction bracket (90 degrees between extension humerus and ulna) is a standard method for scouting QB mechanics. I noticed you didn’t even comment on the lateral target tracking which is criteria #2. I see you have a background in anatomy but fail to appreciate the outright stress put on the ligament plus laxity in the elbow compartment with the baseball style snap of his wrist (directly linked to “baseball elbow”). Getting excited for Mets home opener today. I’ll watch baseball from now until October. I suggest you do the same. Actually it's not a "background in anatomy" I treat patients daily with all kinds of sports related injuries. I teach throwing mechanics frequently during rehab. The "90 degree" angle you talk about is used as a guideline because when you drop your elbow below your shoulder while throwing overhand it causes increased valgus stress on the medial elbow complex. The elbow doesn't abduct. The shoulder does. They are referring to not dropping the shoulder below 90 degrees of abduction while throwing. The 90 degrees of elbow FLEXION is more about accuracy with mechanics, not about injury. The 90 of SHOULDER ABDUCTION (more precisely being below 90) is what causes elbow injuries. I suggest YOU do your research. Watching doesn't mean you understand kinesiology. Talking about "laxity of his elbow compartment with the baseball style snapping of his wrist" makes no sense. Laxity in a joint COMPLEX is in regards to this joint capsule and if the ligaments have been stretched/damaged or not. You are using completely incorrect terminology and trying to talk like you are an expert. I do this for a living. Edited April 4, 2019 by SouthNYfan 2 2
Cripple Creek Posted April 4, 2019 Posted April 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Augie said: If this is baseball related, might he go all Chuck Knoblauch on us? Or, in football terms....”LateSeasonFitzy”? More of a late season Flutie. I know you’re probably too young to remember, but Flutie couldn’t hold up to the rigors of a 16 game season, let alone playoffs. Murray is of the same ilk and the OP is correct in many of his assumptions so-called “experts” aside.
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