Did we land a top 5 GM in Beane?

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I don't know most GM's by name so probably not but I can try.

 

Bill Belicheck

Sean Payton (think he is the GM)

Andy Reid ( i think all these coaches are also GM's or have final say)

Jerry Jones (guy gets ripped a ton and deservedely so in the past, but Dallas has a heck of a defense now and some nice young talent in Dak and Zeke if the o-line can heal up they will be contenders)

Rams GM

Browns GM

 

There is six. Without really thinking about it.

 

But can you answer me what he has accomplished? If he is top 5 in your mind without accomplishing anything then it is a meaningless achievement to be in the top 5.

You lost me at Jerry. Old, zero accountability within the organization of yes men, and not innovative in his football thinking whatsoever.  Sure he’s brought in some pieces and sort of hit on Dak, but hardly the stuff of legend, and he’s had many many years to get Dallas over the hump since taking the GM mantle for himself. More misses than hits at any rate. I’ll take Beane’s upside here any day, sorry.

 

Also believe Loomis is GM in New Orleans, not Payton. Brees has covered up many warts in that organization, including cap purgatory for a number of years and terrible D’s (Rob Ryan anyone?) but let’s see what they do once Drew retires, just sayin’. 

 

Belichick is a no brainer. Browns is a wait and see grand experiment this year, who knows. Rams I could live with, definitely a good job there. So if pressed I’d say 2 off your list have proven they are not flukes. Veach is the GM in KC, a lot of the current roster there still predates him too. 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

How many points do you get for passing yards? 

 

The 2015 team was 12th in points per game

The 2016 team was 10th in points per game

 

You win games by scoring more points than your opponent.

 

I still maintain a little defense would have helped.

 

I'll also give Beane GM offensive cred when he can put together a WR corps like we had back then including Sammy, Woods, Hogan, Goodwin, and Harvin.

 

Just win baby.

Regardless of points per game...

The 2015 team won only 8 games

The 2016 team won 7 only games

 

As I pointed out both years teams had a #1 dominate run game with a running QB and it's my contention that they didn't win more games because they were near last in passing the football. Like I said you won't win many games by going 28th in passing yards in 2015, 30th in passing yards 2016.

 

Now, look at 2018 to see Buffalo going 6-10 with the 31st passing game with a defense that was #2 in yards allowed. 

 

and while I agree that Rex screwed the pooch with his defensive scheme no question by killing the pass rush. Rex Ryan effectively killed the #1 pass rush in the league by having that elite pass rushing D line taking on blockers and dropping into pass coverage instead of rushing the passer.

 

Nevertheless, Bills starting QB Tyrod Taylor was the 23rd ranked NFL QB in 2015, 25th ranked NFL QB in 2016.

 

My point was, you can have a dominant offensive rushing attack (#1 in the league under Ryan) and still not win many games.

[Nihilarian]

24 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

You lost me at Jerry. Old, zero accountability within the organization of yes men, and not innovative in his football thinking whatsoever.  Sure he’s brought in some pieces and sort of hit on Dak, but hardly the stuff of legend, and he’s had many many years to get Dallas over the hump since taking the GM mantle for himself. More misses than hits at any rate. I’ll take Beane’s upside here any day, sorry.

 

Also believe Loomis is GM in New Orleans, not Payton. Brees has covered up many warts in that organization, including cap purgatory for a number of years and terrible D’s (Rob Ryan anyone?) but let’s see what they do once Drew retires, just sayin’. 

 

Belichick is a no brainer. Browns is a wait and see grand experiment this year, who knows. Rams I could live with, definitely a good job there. So if pressed I’d say 2 off your list have proven they are not flukes. Veach is the GM in KC, a lot of the current roster there still predates him too. 

1

 

It wasn't just Jerry making those player decisions anymore as his sons stopped him from drafting Johnny Manziel in 2014. Instead, the Cowboys selected an offensive guard in Zack Martin who has been an all pro, pro bowl OG. 

 

Yes, Jerry sucks but he isn't the only one calling the shots anymore,

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/stephen-jones-reveals-jerry-jones-criticism-of-cowboys-not-drafting-johnny-manziel/

[reddogblitz]

22 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Regardless of points per game...

The 2015 team won only 8 games

The 2016 team won 7 only games

 

As I pointed out both years teams had a #1 dominate run game with a running QB and it's my contention that they didn't win more games because they were near last in passing the football. Like I said you won't win many games by going 28th in passing yards in 2015, 30th in passing yards 2016.

 

Now, look at 2018 to see Buffalo going 6-10 with the 31st passing game with a defense that was #2 in yards allowed. 

 

and while I agree that Rex screwed the pooch with his defensive scheme no question by killing the pass rush. Rex Ryan effectively killed the #1 pass rush in the league by having that elite pass rushing D line taking on blockers and dropping into pass coverage instead of rushing the passer.

 

Nevertheless, Bills starting QB Tyrod Taylor was the 23rd ranked NFL QB in 2015, 25th ranked NFL QB in 2016.

 

My point was, you can have a dominant offensive rushing attack (#1 in the league under Ryan) and still not win many games.

 

just give me a top 10 scoring offense and a D decent at keeping teams out of the EZ and we win a lot of games.  Matters not how you score them. You can score 'em all on D if you want. There are no style points in football ?.

 

Do you think the 2016  team could make the playoffs with the pre Rex 2014 D? 

[Nihilarian]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Unfortunately the decision was made by two people who don't have a pro football brain. Terry and Kim Pegula. I don't believe anyone else in that room, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley or the person making the coffee had any say. The Pegulas fell for Rex and nothing anyone said was going to stop them hiring him. They realised their mistake soon enough but then bottled the decision that they wanted to make at the end of 2015 (which was to make Rex a one and done HC).

 

Actually it was the same in the McDermott search. Doug Whaley liked Kris Richard a lot and still wanted to interview Keith Butler but the Pegulas had made their minds up, they had found their guy and the job was McDermott's. Very quickly they then put him in total control of the football operation until such time they could acquire his own hand picked GM. Now I think they learned from hiring Rex to hiring McDermott and they had a much better profile of the kind of person you need to build sustainable long term NFL success the second time around and I think they made an immeasurably better choice.

 

But know this - while Terry and Kim Pegula own and run the Buffalo Bills THEY and they alone will choose the Head Coach. The job of the front office of the day will only ever be to draw up the list of candidates. The choice with be theirs. Now I believe they chose very well 2nd time around and hopefully as a result we will not need to hire a new Head Coach for many years to come. But when we do.... it will be Terry and Kim's guy again.

 

EDIT: To add as well - the reason Kyle Shanahan (the hottest coordinator in a headset in the hiring round that brought us McD) was not a candidate last time was because the Pegulas took an instant dislike to him during the 2015 process that led to Rex. He was blacklisted by them at that point. Yet more evidence that the people making the coaching decisions in Buffalo are the Pegulas. It is indisputable at this point.

Do you have links to all this info or were you in the rooms? 

 

I can recall reading that for Rex Ryan it was Russ Brandon that stated: "don't let him leave the building"!  I believe the new owners went with this because he had been the real de facto GM since Marv Levy retired. If Doug Whaley had stepped up and said anything about hiring Rex Ryan as the wrong thing to do... I doubt they hire him.

 

As far as for hiring McD. The Pegula's stated that they looked at four candidates brought in by Doug Whaley.

 

"Whaley, brought forth those four candidates as he thought they were best qualified for the job. (Sean McDermott, Kris Richard, Harold Goodwin and Anthony Lynn)."

 

Terry and Kim Pegula alluded to the numerous recommendations on McDermott’s ability as a head coach, but they wouldn’t go into specifics on who exactly recommended him.

“There were players, previous and current, he has been with that we talked to.” Kim Pegula said. “Other coaches and staff that he’s worked with along the way. We feel confident in this hire.”

Terry shortly added afterward that multiple players and executives around the NFL commended McDermott’s capabilities.

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/12/bills-owners-open-up-about-hiring-sean-mcdermott-faith-in-gm-doug-whaley/

 

 

 

[Nihilarian]

15 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

A little defense would have helped. The talent on the 2015 and 2016 teams WAS playoff quality.  That team would have made playoffs if only Rex could coach defense which evidently he could not.  Not Doug''s fault.  

2

I'm not arguing the fact that Rex Ryan killed the 2014 defense with his crappy outdated scheme. 

 

What I should have responded to was that it was partly Doug Whaley's fault because he had a voice in that head coaching interview and either because of negligence on his part in not voicing concern about the hire or stupidity because he failed to look deeper into the situation. Whaley was there and he had a say and he chose not to make it. 

 

Also, I still contend that you need a top NFL QB to win games in the current NFL as it's now a passing league. It's why the Bills dumped Tyrod and drafted a new rookie QB.

[reddogblitz]

3 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I'm not arguing the fact that Rex Ryan killed the 2014 defense with his crappy outdated scheme. 

 

What I should have responded to was that it was partly Doug Whaley's fault because he had a voice in that head coaching interview and either because of negligence on his part in not voicing concern about the hire or stupidity because he failed to look deeper into the situation. Whaley was there and he had a say and he chose not to make it.  

 

Also, I still contend that you need a top NFL QB to win games in the current NFL as it's now a passing league. It's why the Bills dumped Tyrod and drafted a new rookie QB. 

 

The Pegulas hired Rex after they had a good ole time watching the Super Bowl with him.  Whaley reportedly wanted Coach McDermott.

 

I'm not saying Hotrod was the end all be all and we didn't need an improvement.  I wanted us to draft Watson who IS a top 10 QB right now as is Mahommes if you wanted to go that way. I hope Wonder Boy is but it remains to be seen and he is nowhere close as I type.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...the MAGOX post could not have said it any better.......he graded various aspects of McBean's performance and his final grade was INCOMPLETE......couldn't have said it any better meaning wait for "on field results" IMO.......

[PhillyB]

Was it Beane or Whaley that traded the Mahommes pick?

[Bangarang]

18 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

Was it Beane or Whaley that traded the Mahommes pick?

 

Considering Beane was still employed by Carolina at the time I’m going to say it wasn’t him.

[reddogblitz]

25 minutes ago, PhillyB said:

Was it Beane or Whaley that traded the Mahommes pick?

 

It was coach McDermott's call.    Whaley and I wanted to take Watson with the pick.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

On 4/4/2019 at 9:16 AM, Inigo Montoya said:

Cleaned up salary cap disaster in one year

 

Wheeled and dealed to get into position to draft a franchise QB

 

Not afraid to roll the dice on an upside player, and more importantly, not afraid to admit a mistake and cut their ass if it doesn’t work

 

Addressed O-line and WR,  largest team weaknesses in FA, on team friendly deals without breaking the bank

 

Still has a top 10 draft pick in his pocket and nine other picks

 

Should have @$100 million in space next year to extend our own talent instead of watching it walk

 

Has the stones to go after AB, and the brains to walk away

 

Gets up in front of the entire NFL and national sports media and tells them all to suck his d*** for bad mouthing Buffalo

 

We’ll all see how it plays out on the field this season, but I think Beane has this franchise in the best shape it’s been in twenty years

 

 

Stop with this. AB didn't want to come here it's a FACT.

[Beast]

I like Beane.

 

With saying that, until you are a top 5 football team you can’t possibly consider him as a top 5 GM.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Do you have links to all this info or were you in the rooms? 

 

I can recall reading that for Rex Ryan it was Russ Brandon that stated: "don't let him leave the building"!  I believe the new owners went with this because he had been the real de facto GM since Marv Levy retired. If Doug Whaley had stepped up and said anything about hiring Rex Ryan as the wrong thing to do... I doubt they hire him.

 

As far as for hiring McD. The Pegula's stated that they looked at four candidates brought in by Doug Whaley.

 

"Whaley, brought forth those four candidates as he thought they were best qualified for the job. (Sean McDermott, Kris Richard, Harold Goodwin and Anthony Lynn)."

 

Terry and Kim Pegula alluded to the numerous recommendations on McDermott’s ability as a head coach, but they wouldn’t go into specifics on who exactly recommended him.

“There were players, previous and current, he has been with that we talked to.” Kim Pegula said. “Other coaches and staff that he’s worked with along the way. We feel confident in this hire.”

Terry shortly added afterward that multiple players and executives around the NFL commended McDermott’s capabilities.

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/12/bills-owners-open-up-about-hiring-sean-mcdermott-faith-in-gm-doug-whaley/

 

 

 

 

We have been over the "don't let him leave the building" quote so many times. Brandon said that AFTER the Pegulas had chosen Rex. It was if he is your guy then you don't let him leave the building. Believe Russ Brandon chose Rex Ryan if you like, but he didn't. Go back and read the transcript of the press conference. "We said okay let's hire Rex, and Russ told us don't let him out of the building." The timeline is very clear. The Pegulas chose Rex. Then Russ said in which case don't let him leave the building. 

 

As for the hiring of McDermott.... I have consistently said that the job of the GM is to bring in the candidates. Whaley put together the shortlist but the moment the Pegulas interviewed McDermott they were hiring him. There is the story of Kim texting McDermott's wife about areas of Buffalo to house hunt the very next day while they were still interviewing other candidates. Whaley was very keen on Kris Richard and wanted to add Keith Butler to the interview list (Steelers were still alive at the time) but the decision was made. 

 

And the Shanahan was reported on here by some out most well connected posters at the time as well. 

 

The Pegulas got it wrong with Rex and right with McDermott. But both were THEIR choices. And while they are running this team they will choose the Head Coach. I say again the job of the FO of the day will purely be to provide a list of candidates. The Pegulas will do the hiring. 

[SoTier]

9 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

I certainly wouldnt.  But he really came in after the offseason.  I think everything he did was part of the plan.

 

Well, if Kelvin Benjamin was "part of the plan" then maybe the plan is seriously flawed.  How is a big, slow WR with bad knees, mediocre hands, and a questionable attitude of much use on any team?????

 

8 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Can you give me 5 current GMs you'd rather have?

 

I can name at least 8 ...

 

8. John Dorsey of the Browns

7. Brett Veach with Andy Reid of the Chiefs.

6. Mickey Loomis of the Saints   1 SB

5. John Schneider with Pete Carrol of the Seahawks   1 SB

4. Howie Roseman of the Eagles  1 SB

3. Les Snead of the Rams

2. Kevin Colbert of the Steelers   1 losing season since 2000, 2 SBs

1. Bill Belichick of the Patriots   1 losing season since 2000,  6 SBs

 

I'd would also have added Ozzie Newsome of the Baltimore Ravens with 2 SB wins but he retired in 2018.   Maybe you should expand your horizons beyond Buffalo and WNY.

 

7 hours ago, ddaryl said:

if we go deep into the playoffs then yes. If we miss playoffs again, or barley make a WC  and don't win a playoff game then no

 

Well, actually, the Bills need to win a few more games than 6 with a Beane assembled team before their fans can talk playoffs much less playoff wins.  The 2017 team was mostly still players brought in by Whaley with a few contributions from the Nix era and from McDermott.  Beane's contributions to the 2017 playoff team were Kelvin Benjamin and Jordan Matthews IIRC.

 

1 hour ago, Chemical said:

 

Stop with this. AB didn't want to come here it's a FACT.

 

Don't pee on the OP's Cheerios by bringing up facts!

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We have been over the "don't let him leave the building" quote so many times. Brandon said that AFTER the Pegulas had chosen Rex. It was if he is your guy then you don't let him leave the building. Believe Russ Brandon chose Rex Ryan if you like, but he didn't. Go back and read the transcript of the press conference. "We said okay let's hire Rex, and Russ told us don't let him out of the building." The timeline is very clear. The Pegulas chose Rex. Then Russ said in which case don't let him leave the building. 

 

As for the hiring of McDermott.... I have consistently said that the job of the GM is to bring in the candidates. Whaley put together the shortlist but the moment the Pegulas interviewed McDermott they were hiring him. There is the story of Kim texting McDermott's wife about areas of Buffalo to house hunt the very next day while they were still interviewing other candidates. Whaley was very keen on Kris Richard and wanted to add Keith Butler to the interview list (Steelers were still alive at the time) but the decision was made. 

 

And the Shanahan was reported on here by some out most well connected posters at the time as well. 

 

The Pegulas got it wrong with Rex and right with McDermott. But both were THEIR choices. And while they are running this team they will choose the Head Coach. I say again the job of the FO of the day will purely be to provide a list of candidates. The Pegulas will do the hiring. 

 

Excellent post.  Your last paragraph pretty much explains why I am not very optimistic about the Bills future.  As long as the Pegulas hire the HCs, then the Bills will pretty much operate the same way that they have since 2006 with the GM simply being a facilitator for the HC.  It hasn't worked so far, primarily because the head coaching selections have been so bad -- and every new HC has to bring in "his guys" of course, so good players leave and the team starts all over again ... and again ... and again.   Terry Pegula's tenure as the Sabres owner and his hiring of Rex Ryan hardly inspires confidence that his hiring choices for coaches can even be reach "average" much less "great". 

 

If something magical happens --- Beane, McDermott and Allen have to have HOF worthy careers while with the Bills -- maybe the Bills will become perennial playoff contenders and possibly win a SB despite Pegula's ownership but realistically, the odds of winning a million dollars in a lottery are probably about the same.  As QBs like Phillip Rivers and Matthew Stafford demonstrate, a franchise QB isn't a guarantee that a team will win games with regularity.  A great coach can be a loser if the organization he's with can't/won't provide him with the personnel he needs as Bill Belichick's career demonstrates.    

 

[Nihilarian]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Unfortunately the decision was made by two people who don't have a pro football brain. Terry and Kim Pegula. I don't believe anyone else in that room, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley or the person making the coffee had any say. The Pegulas fell for Rex and nothing anyone said was going to stop them hiring him.

2

This is what you stated and you make that statement with nothing to back it up but speculation. 

 

"Whaley, who was in the room for the interview process that led to Rex getting hired, has been in Buffalo since 2010. That's seven seasons of the soon-to-be 17-year drought. Brandon has been here for nearly two decades of this drought. He was the one who hired Whaley. He's the one who helped hire Doug Marrone. And yes, he's the one who told Pegula not to let Rex Ryan leave the building. He texted Rex with advice for how to woo the Pegulas."

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2016/12/can_the_pegulas_trust_doug_whaley_and_russ_brandon_to_help_hire_bills_next_coach.html

 

"After an extensive search, conducted by myself, Kim (Pegula), Russ (Brandon), and Doug Whaley, the Buffalo Bills have hired a new head coach and that coach is Rex Ryan."

 

"We went into this process very open-minded, the four of us. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of debating, which is always healthy."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Q: What made you decide that Rex was your guy?

 

TP: The first round of the interviews were broad-type questions. When we called him back and got into the nitty gritty, Doug hit him with all this stuff that put me to sleep (Laughs). That’s when we knew that Rex could be our coach, if he wanted to be. We just felt that he was our guy and trust me, we had some pretty impressive people that we felt could the Bills coach, but we said, “Hey, let’s go after Rex.” Russ told me, “Don’t let him out of the building.”

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/complete-transcript-rex-ryan-s-introduction-14782098

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

but the moment the Pegulas interviewed McDermott they were hiring him.

I posted a link which stated that the Pegula's took their time and consulted with many, many NFL people before hiring McD. This wasn't a snap decision on either hire by the owners like you suggest. The links I posted to support this and it is not just my speculation.

 

Yes, the Pegula's had the final decision on who they hired to be the head coach of their NFL franchise. Bottom line to my main point, Doug Whaley had a voice and backed the Rex Ryan hire from what I read. 

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Well, if Kelvin Benjamin was "part of the plan" then maybe the plan is seriously flawed.  How is a big, slow WR with bad knees, mediocre hands, and a questionable attitude of much use on any team?????

 

 

I can name at least 8 ...

 

8. John Dorsey of the Browns

7. Brett Veach with Andy Reid of the Chiefs.

6. Mickey Loomis of the Saints   1 SB

5. John Schneider with Pete Carrol of the Seahawks   1 SB

4. Howie Roseman of the Eagles  1 SB

3. Les Snead of the Rams

2. Kevin Colbert of the Steelers   1 losing season since 2000, 2 SBs

1. Bill Belichick of the Patriots   1 losing season since 2000,  6 SBs

 

I'd would also have added Ozzie Newsome of the Baltimore Ravens with 2 SB wins but he retired in 2018.   Maybe you should expand your horizons beyond Buffalo and WNY.

 

 

Well, actually, the Bills need to win a few more games than 6 with a Beane assembled team before their fans can talk playoffs much less playoff wins.  The 2017 team was mostly still players brought in by Whaley with a few contributions from the Nix era and from McDermott.  Beane's contributions to the 2017 playoff team were Kelvin Benjamin and Jordan Matthews IIRC.

 

 

Don't pee on the OP's Cheerios by bringing up facts!

 

 

Excellent post.  Your last paragraph pretty much explains why I am not very optimistic about the Bills future.  As long as the Pegulas hire the HCs, then the Bills will pretty much operate the same way that they have since 2006 with the GM simply being a facilitator for the HC.  It hasn't worked so far, primarily because the head coaching selections have been so bad -- and every new HC has to bring in "his guys" of course, so good players leave and the team starts all over again ... and again ... and again.   Terry Pegula's tenure as the Sabres owner and his hiring of Rex Ryan hardly inspires confidence that his hiring choices for coaches can even be reach "average" much less "great". 

 

If something magical happens --- Beane, McDermott and Allen have to have HOF worthy careers while with the Bills -- maybe the Bills will become perennial playoff contenders and possibly win a SB despite Pegula's ownership but realistically, the odds of winning a million dollars in a lottery are probably about the same.  As QBs like Phillip Rivers and Matthew Stafford demonstrate, a franchise QB isn't a guarantee that a team will win games with regularity.  A great coach can be a loser if the organization he's with can't/won't provide him with the personnel he needs as Bill Belichick's career demonstrates.    

 

Nobody gets everything right.  You want to pick out 1 or 2 things.  I dont consider him top ten let alone top 5 yet.  But you are just at the other radical spectrum.  Most of us are in the middle.  Some insane people are "SuperBowl" and actually mean it and then there are the crowd you are with.  Even if we win a Lambardi you will say its luck.

[Real McClappy]

When we actually win the division for the first time since 1995 I will then crown Beane top 5.

[Augie]

4 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said:

I like Beane.

 

With saying that, until you are a top 5 football team you can’t possibly consider him as a top 5 GM.

 

I totally get that, but he could be a top 5 GM with a top 15 coach, and struggle to excel. I’m not saying that’s the case, but it’s more than just the GM, especially when the coach came first. 

[QCity]

Spending money in free agency doesn't make you a great GM.