Did we land a top 5 GM in Beane?

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Remember when trading back to select Manuel netted the 2013 NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year in Kiko Alonso in round 2?

 

Remember when Watkins put up over 2K receiving yards in his first two seasons........a 70 yards per game average?

 

While I ALSO like Tre White and Allen and Edmunds..........none of them started out as good as Alonso or Watkins.........which is why so many people here were absolutely ga-ga over Whaley at the same point as McBeane are at now.

 

Let's hope that unexpected injuries don't derail any of the Bills current hight picks.........but it wasn't a given that Kiko and Watkins would be injury riddled.............nor did it look like the other 2013 second rounder Robert Woods would put up 1200 yards receiving in 2018 though either.    Ronald Darby was also probably a top 5 all time Bills second round pick.

 

The real shabby work of Whaley was drafting Shaq and Ragnuts to appease Rex Ryan's needs.

 

 

 

 

Kiko was a Nix pick.

 

Tre White didn't start out as good as Watkins? That is arguable. And Tre stayed healthy. And while yeah, Kiko (Thanks, Buddy!!) started strong, he was tailing off by the end of his first season and in no way can you put his first two seasons against Tre's, considering he missed his entire second year. They're not even slightly comparable. And Kiko was a Nix pick. Yeah, Whaley likely had a lot of influence, but no, he wasn't the GM. Same with the trade-down for Manuel bringing in Kiko. Yeah, it was a nice trade-down, but the important choice that year was drafting a QB - again, Nix pulled the trigger so he gets ultimate blame, but you're acting as if moving back and then picking Manuel was a great decision. 

 

I suppose some people were ga-ga over Whaley but "so many"? I wouldn't say that. It was nothing like a consensus. Not even close.

 

Even that early, two years in, his drafts looked weak:

 

Watkins

Kouandjio

Preston Brown

Ross Cockerel

Cyril Richardson

Randell Johnson

Seantrell Henderson

 

Darby

John Miller

Karlos Williams

Tony Steward

Nick O'Leary

Dezmin Lewis

 

There was already huge doubt about Kouandjio, Cockrell had been released before his second season. Miller was questionable. O'Leary was a JAG at best. Karlos Williams had eaten his way out of the league and nobody was calling him.

 

It looked like in two drafts he'd acquired a WR who looked pretty good when healthy but always seemed to be injured, a solid, smart but uninspiring MLB in Brown, a good CB in Darby ... and that looked like it in terms of real talent. 

 

In no way did Whaley's drafts look as good as this FO's two drafts. 

 

I was still hopeful with Whaley but it didn't look good.

 

And Whaley stepped into a situation which should have allowed him to look good quickly. He stepped into a reload. He was able to maintain a defense that was really good and had been built almost completely under Nix. The salary cap situation was solid. The new group on the other hand rebuilt, which makes it much harder to win early. Not to mention that their first two drafts already look a ton better than Whaley's first two did. And after his first two years we were already headed towards salary cap trouble thanks to his contracts on guys like Clay.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Thurman#1

[billsfan_34]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

True

Go Bills- have a super weekend ? 

[simpleman]

17 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Beane is not going to be judged because Nathan Peterman started as QB last year.

His final judgment will entirely be wired to Josh Allen, last years draft, this FA and this years draft. 

You have to know this.  You are a smart guy and sometimes I got to ask why people keep this up.

 

Beane and McDermott had a plan to totally dismantle this team.  It should not even be a question.

Whether he puts together a winner starts this year, last year has nothing to do with it.

And a smart guy would not simply toss out Beane's whole first year and give him a mulligan for no logical reason. If I owned a business an employee who wasted a whole year and required a 12 month mulligan would not still be employed by me.

[Thurman#1]

21 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

Every FA they signed sucked ####. Not a good use of resources. But hey, he may be a top 5 GM.?

 

 

You've said it a lot. Still not true, though.  Again, Lotulelei has done what they wanted him to do. You just can't argue much with what they have done on defense. They've showed consistent improvement, to the point where they're one of the best defences in the league. And Lotulelei is a piece McDermott needed to get there. Signing Kyle for another year worked well. Bodine sure wasn't good, but he was acceptable, and if he hadn't been there we'd have had to rely on the worse Groy, not a great signing but for cheap, not bad. Bush played OK for cheap. Stanford played OK for very cheap and was solid on STs.

 

So your take is pure bull####.

 

He had extremely limited resources to use on FA, because they were concentrating on clearing the cap space for 2019, at which they clearly succeeded.

 

 

 

23 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

15-17 record so far here....top 5? Best GM in the league for sure.??

 

(face palm)

 

You're clearly right that it's far too early. That does indeed make a great deal of sense. He's got a ton to prove.

 

But again, you can't judge GMs or coaches by record in the first year of a rebuild, and particularly not a rebuild in which the previous administration put the team deep in cap trouble.

 

If you could judge coaches by their first two years in a rebuild, Bill Walsh would go down a bottom 5% coach, having won six games in his first two seasons.

 

You can't do it and be seen as understanding the process. This rebuild could fail or succeed. But once they made the choice to rebuild, a bad record for the first two years was a fait accompli. Coming up with 15 wins was actually pretty amazing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Thurman#1

[simpleman]

17 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's terrible for Whaley. In 2015 we spent $210 million on our active roster which was #1 in the league. In 2018 we spent $160 million on our active roster which was #31 in the league. How did we end up with the same record while spending a lot less on the roster? That's awful use of cap space.

What? Your lack of logic astounds me. In 2018 the league basic cap space was 177 million. Beane chose to waste 68 million of that in dead cap. Handicapping the team in 2018 in a wild gamble that giving it up, along with any hope of success that year would give him a bounty of cap space the next year. Wasting almost 40 % of your cap space paying players that are playing against you while not having enough cap space that year to put together a competitive team is good use of cap space in 2018? I call it reckless gamble. It all will depend on his other huge gamble on Allen. If Allen quickly becomes a successful franchise QB, Beane will be judged a successful gambler. If not, he will be judged a reckless loser.

Edited April 5, 2019 by simpleman

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, simpleman said:

And a smart guy would not simply toss out Beane's whole first year and give him a mulligan for no logical reason. If I owned a business an employee who wasted a whole year and required a 12 month mulligan would not still be employed by me.

I certainly wouldnt.  But he really came in after the offseason.  I think everything he did was part of the plan.

Edited April 5, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[Nextmanup]

On 4/4/2019 at 9:17 AM, gregor7777 said:

I need to see some more wins.

Nonsense! 

 

We've won the off-season and that's pretty darned obvious.

Again!
 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

23 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

If Beane isn't top 5 can someone list the Top 5 Current GMs for me then.

If Beane is considered top 5 then it is pretty much a meaningless accomplishment since Beane's accomplishment's thus far are none in terms of W's. The next few seasons and whether we either become a consistent winner or Allen becomes a franchise QB will determine if Beane is a success as a GM. Either one of those happening will make Beane a top GM.

 

Sure Beane was here for a 9-7 playoff year but that was with mostly players Whaley, Rex and McDermott had brought in. Beane's biggest contribution that year was bringing in KB. Not exactly a great move.

 

On 4/4/2019 at 7:02 AM, Chuck Wagon said:

Anyone can tear something down.  If that's the criteria you want, Sashi Brown did a WAY better job than Beane.  This is putting the cart before the horse, there's still a decent chance JA flames out dramatically and Beane is more remembered as being associated with trading Mahomes only to give up a bunch of picks to get Josh Allen.

 

Was Beane even here for that draft? I didn't think he was.

[ProcessAccepted]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

If Beane is considered top 5 then it is pretty much a meaningless accomplishment since Beane's accomplishment's thus far are none in terms of W's. The next few seasons and whether we either become a consistent winner or Allen becomes a franchise QB will determine if Beane is a success as a GM. Either one of those happening will make Beane a top GM.

 

Sure Beane was here for a 9-7 playoff year but that was with mostly players Whaley, Rex and McDermott had brought in. Beane's biggest contribution that year was bringing in KB. Not exactly a great move.

 

 

Was Beane even here for that draft? I didn't think he was.

Can you give me 5 current GMs you'd rather have?

Edited April 5, 2019 by ProcessAccepted

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 4/4/2019 at 7:03 AM, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

and he's made some killer FA moves this year, particularly with how he's structuring the deals to remain cap friendly for years to come. 

 

That is also code for not really bringing in anyone with real all-pro level talent.

 

Besides our new center, everyone else is average at best. Brown, Beasely, Kroft, none of these guys were going to be highly paid because they were not highly coveted. It is great that financial we are in good shape. But also, may need that flexibility if these free agents flame out.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Just now, ProcessAccepted said:

Can you give me 5 GMs you'd rather have?

 

I don't know most GM's by name so probably not but I can try.

 

Bill Belicheck

Sean Payton (think he is the GM)

Andy Reid ( i think all these coaches are also GM's or have final say)

Jerry Jones (guy gets ripped a ton and deservedely so in the past, but Dallas has a heck of a defense now and some nice young talent in Dak and Zeke if the o-line can heal up they will be contenders)

Rams GM

Browns GM

 

There is six. Without really thinking about it.

 

But can you answer me what he has accomplished? If he is top 5 in your mind without accomplishing anything then it is a meaningless achievement to be in the top 5.

[stony]

5 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Can you give me 5 current GMs you'd rather have?

You realize Beane could blow every draft over the next 5 years, and as long as he hits on Allen, we'll consider him good?  You know why?  Because the team will probably be good because they have a QB. 

 

I understand the excitement, but it seems prudent to hold off anointing him one of the best in the league at this point of his tenure.    

[ProcessAccepted]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I don't know most GM's by name so probably not but I can try.

 

Bill Belicheck

Sean Payton (think he is the GM)

Andy Reid ( i think all these coaches are also GM's or have final say)

Jerry Jones (guy gets ripped a ton and deservedely so in the past, but Dallas has a heck of a defense now and some nice young talent in Dak and Zeke if the o-line can heal up they will be contenders)

Rams GM

Browns GM

 

There is six. Without really thinking about it.

 

But can you answer me what he has accomplished? If he is top 5 in your mind without accomplishing anything then it is a meaningless achievement to be in the top 5.

 

I can see that you put your list together quickly without really thinking about it ?

 

Beane has come in a very short period of time helped build a functioning organization. Gone are the days of all the in fighting and power struggles. He's completely revamped the roster and solved our salary cap hell. In our tear down year he was still able put together a roster that won 6 games when most pundits were saying that we were tanking the season. He traded up and got us Josh Allen when he needed to. He got us a 3rd for Tyrod and a 5th for McCarron. We've already addressed our biggest need and done a complete overhaul on OL. We've bolstered our WR corp and special teams. I can add more but I don't like long posts

 

10 minutes ago, stony said:

You realize Beane could blow every draft over the next 5 years, and as long as he hits on Allen, we'll consider him good?  You know why?  Because the team will probably be good because they have a QB. 

 

I understand the excitement, but it seems prudent to hold off anointing him one of the best in the league at this point of his tenure.    

I haven't come out and said that he's top 5 but if there's a conversation about the top 5 GM happening then hell yeah Beane should be in that conversation.

[corta765]

10 hours ago, transient said:

 

Maybe so, but if the rumor mill is to be believed he wanted Hue Jackson over Rex... which at the time may have seemed reasonable... however in hindsight would have been one of the few coaching hires that could have been both more of a douche and a worse coach than Rex.

 

Yea but I believe he also was interested in Kyle Shanahan. The butterfly effect is always interesting. Rex's biggest issue was his unwillingness to be the coach and not control the D. I think had he kept and empowered Schwartz you would've seen a superb D that benefited from Rex's creativity while Schwartz would've handled the nuts and bolts that Rex did not like. Oh well fun times haha

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, simpleman said:

And a smart guy would not simply toss out Beane's whole first year and give him a mulligan for no logical reason. If I owned a business an employee who wasted a whole year and required a 12 month mulligan would not still be employed by me.

 

I'm not giving him a mulligan for his time as GM from the post 2017 draft through the 2018 FA.

He definitely had some good size misses.  I'm sure he would admit that too.

 

During that time frame Beane is on record saying the #1 job of a GM is to secure a franchise QB.

He repeated that statement many times.

Almost no resources went into the non QB offense last year.

 The majority went into securing Josh Allen as QB and the rest went into the future defensive QB.

I really believe if he had to spend even more picks/players/money to get JA he would of done that.

 

He got his QB and NOW he is building around him. 

[rodneykm]

Give me a playoff win and then we'll talk. If he can do that, you lock his a** up in a contract for 20 years. 

[ddaryl]

if we go deep into the playoffs then yes. If we miss playoffs again, or barley make a WC  and don't win a playoff game then no

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Kiko was a Nix pick.

 

Tre White didn't start out as good as Watkins? That is arguable. And Tre stayed healthy. And while yeah, Kiko (Thanks, Buddy!!) started strong, he was tailing off by the end of his first season and in no way can you put his first two seasons against Tre's, considering he missed his entire second year. They're not even slightly comparable. And Kiko was a Nix pick. Yeah, Whaley likely had a lot of influence, but no, he wasn't the GM. Same with the trade-down for Manuel bringing in Kiko. Yeah, it was a nice trade-down, but the important choice that year was drafting a QB - again, Nix pulled the trigger so he gets ultimate blame, but you're acting as if moving back and then picking Manuel was a great decision. 

 

I suppose some people were ga-ga over Whaley but "so many"? I wouldn't say that. It was nothing like a consensus. Not even close.

 

Even that early, two years in, his drafts looked weak:

 

Watkins

Kouandjio

Preston Brown

Ross Cockerel

Cyril Richardson

Randell Johnson

Seantrell Henderson

 

Darby

John Miller

Karlos Williams

Tony Steward

Nick O'Leary

Dezmin Lewis

 

There was already huge doubt about Kouandjio, Cockrell had been released before his second season. Miller was questionable. O'Leary was a JAG at best. Karlos Williams had eaten his way out of the league and nobody was calling him.

 

It looked like in two drafts he'd acquired a WR who looked pretty good when healthy but always seemed to be injured, a solid, smart but uninspiring MLB in Brown, a good CB in Darby ... and that looked like it in terms of real talent. 

 

In no way did Whaley's drafts look as good as this FO's two drafts. 

 

I was still hopeful with Whaley but it didn't look good.

 

And Whaley stepped into a situation which should have allowed him to look good quickly. He stepped into a reload. He was able to maintain a defense that was really good and had been built almost completely under Nix. The salary cap situation was solid. The new group on the other hand rebuilt, which makes it much harder to win early. Not to mention that their first two drafts already look a ton better than Whaley's first two did. And after his first two years we were already headed towards salary cap trouble thanks to his contracts on guys like Clay.

 

 

 

 

So EJ was a Whaley pick...........but Kiko was a Nix pick?

 

OKayyyyyyyyyy then.........so let me guess.......Tre White was a McDermott pick and Zay Jones was a Whaley pick, right?

 

Got it.

 

The rest of your post is out of context............Karlos Williams had a TD record breaking rookie season and averaged 5.5 ypa............John Miller was considered an excellent pick on a dominant run blocking line...........Preston Brown was an off the bus starting MLB for a top defense as a rookie and lead the NFL in tackles in 2017.......Henderson was a highly regarded rookie starting OT prospect by the beginning of his rookie season and considered a steal...........Ross Cockerel was lamented here as he went on to start for a championship contending Pittsburgh team after the Bills cut him.    Cyrus even had a stretch where it looked like he was going to develop into a starting NFL OT!

 

Let's give McDermott and Beane's rookie classes some time.    They haven't had any award winners or record breakers or league leaders like Whaley's classes.............but there have also been those flashes that we hope will carry over just like we hoped Karlos would turn into a super RB and Kiko and Watkins would be all time great Bills etc..

Edited April 5, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[reddogblitz]

9 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Playoff quality? Perhaps the defensive players. The 2015 Bills offense was 31st in passing attempts and 28th in passing yards, 20th in passing TDs.  2016 saw the Bills pass game slightly regress to 32nd in the NFL and 30th in yards, 27th in passing TDs. The Bills 2015-2016 lacked a quality QB who could make plays through the air. The year previous the Bills went 9-7 with Kyle Orton at QB and the run game was 25th in yards. 

 

How many points do you get for passing yards? 

 

The 2015 team was 12th in points per game

The 2016 team was 10th in points per game

 

You win games by scoring more points than your opponent.

 

I still maintain a little defense would have helped.

 

I'll also give Beane GM offensive cred when he can put together a WR corps like we had back then including Sammy, Woods, Hogan, Goodwin, and Harvin.

 

Just win baby.

[JerseyBills]

I've been saying this to anyone on here who'll listen since last year. I think we struck gold with McD and Beane. Beane could be in the conversation depending how we finish , and expectations are high for me..

 

I feel they Share a specific blueprint and vision for long term success and he has really set this franchise on the right athletes and made it sustainable!

 

I just love the culture being built , it really feels like something special is brewing. They target very specific personality traits as well. Feel Beane and McD have a firm grasp on the team , and get the best out of them on the field.