Did we land a top 5 GM in Beane?

[Nihilarian]

 

Most Bills fans here thought Buddy Nix had upgraded the team with talent and things were on the rise...We all saw that 100 million spent on a pass rushing DE and having the best pass rush in the league didn't equate to more than 9 wins. No playoffs!

 

Most Bills fans here thought Doug Whaley had upgraded the team with talent and things were on the rise...We all saw that having the best run game in the league in yards, TDs, YPC didn't equate to more than 9 wins. No Playoffs!

 

Those men made many, many mistakes and then attempted fixes with bandaids. Both, their biggest flaws were not finding a franchise QB.

 

Beane made some mistakes this season with the backup QBs in obtaining them late. But ultimately found quality backups to help the rookie QB. Beane made huge mistakes with some receivers and O linemen but then he might have been influenced by assistants who were bad at their respective jobs. McD and Beane have replaced those assistants along with others (ST coach) who were also bad at their jobs. 

 

Beane found his franchise QB and somewhat moved mountains to obtain him by trading up to the #7 spot and then trading up again to get the MLB at the #16 spot. What happened last season was due to some bad decisions with a bad O line, bad WRs, bad assistant coaching and little to no run game. 

 

Bottom line is "winning cures everything"! Ten wins and beating the Patriots once this season will lock Beane down as the best since Polian. Six wins like Vegas suggests will mean Beane failed in a lot of his player choices.

[njbuff]

The wins need to come. Otherwise, saying he is top 5 is foolhardy.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, njbuff said:

The wins need to come. Otherwise, saying he is top 5 is foolhardy.

 

Wins are a result of talent accumulation AND coaching. I’m NOT anti-McD, but he came first. If coaching turns out to be the holdup, then we have another conversation. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Wins are a result of talent accumulation AND coaching. I’m NOT anti-McD, but he came first. If coaching turns out to be the holdup, then we have another conversation. 

This is kind of how I feel. I think Beane is a very good GM. I think Mc Dermott is a great DB and LB evaluator and a good D coach. IF McDermott can become as good at the Offensive side of the ball as the defensive side then everyone will be considered great.

[njbuff]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Wins are a result of talent accumulation AND coaching. I’m NOT anti-McD, but he came first. If coaching turns out to be the holdup, then we have another conversation. 

 

It's pretty simple.

 

If Allen is a mega-franchise QB, everyone's job is safe and Beane gets the love as a top 5 GM.

[formerlyofCtown]

3 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

I know it was Brandon- my point was Whaley allowed it. Please re read what I wrote- thanks.

Brandon was Whaleys boss and ultimately the Pegulas made the decision.

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I know, I know.

 

Being objective isn't allowed here. The mentality must be "the Bills are always an up and coming team with the right people in place"..... until they aren't. 

 

Ill praise Beane when he deserves it. That's all.??

No, that just seems to be the case now.  In my opinion he has done a well above average job.  He hasnt earned any top 5 status yet.  But if you look around the league you will see GMs wandering in the dark.  At least ours seems to have a plan and methodology.

[formerlyofCtown]

14 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Wins are a result of talent accumulation AND coaching. I’m NOT anti-McD, but he came first. If coaching turns out to be the holdup, then we have another conversation. 

The coaching seems to be pretty good when you figure the level players are performing at.  I try to stay positive but we had no business winning 6 games last season.  Truth is our offensive line is still a question mark.  But Beane and McDermott are not just sitting on their rears.  I truely think that Beane will be very successful because he sticks to his philosophyies.  Although he is flexible it seems they wont deviate from their core principals.

They will take BPA Regardless of position if it will make the team better.  

 

They try to maximize CAP dollars and address needs with players that have already proven they can play in the NFL so they dont end up with a Rookie who is not yet able to play on this level.

 

The players will be team first or they wont be here.

No room for steps back though now that the only fingerprints on the team are his and McDs

Edited April 5, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[Augie]

1 minute ago, formerlyofCtown said:

The coaching seems to be pretty good when you figure the level players are performing at.  I try to stay positive but we had no business winning 6 games last season.  

 

I think 6 was about right, all things considered, and that’s what we got.Anything less than 9 next year would be very disappointing, but you never know what the future holds. I look for progress. 

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Most Bills fans here thought Doug Whaley had upgraded the team with talent and things were on the rise...We all saw that having the best run game in the league in yards, TDs, YPC didn't equate to more than 9 wins. No Playoffs!

 

A little defense would have helped. The talent on the 2015 and 2016 teams WAS playoff quality.  That team would have made playoffs if only Rex could coach defense which evidently he could not.  Not Doug''s fault.  

Edited April 5, 2019 by reddogblitz

[Bangarang]

This is such a stupid question for several reasons

[ColdFront_USAF]

14 hours ago, corta765 said:

Listen I am a big Beane fan and his early resume is quiet nice to this point including breaking the drought. But I do want to pump the breaks a little because I liked Whaley a ton too and lots of people heading into the 2015 offseason thought he was the dude after putting together a strong D and adding good FA's to offense with the McCoy trade being the highlight. That didn't turn out well which was a mix of bad coaching and too much bad contracts. But my point being is before I even start saying top 5 I think we need to see some more success and yes I am saying it a division crown.

Now if you want to say Beane is one of the better/rising young minds I think that nationally is becoming a strong sentiment based off his work.

 

I'm always cautiously optimistic about our "up and comers". One thing I really like about Beane is that he appears to learn from his own mistakes, and mistakes made by prior regimes. 

 

Whaley's greatest trait was also his biggest weakness. He was good at identifying talent, but failed to properly build a team. It also made him over aggressive with his pursuit of talent, like giving a ludicrous contract to an average TE in Clay. His mentality of "win now" and "we're one player away" is what led to his downfall.

 

Beane has shown he can find talent everywhere. He also has shown he understands the concept of team building and managing the cap over a several year period. I look at it like chess. A good player will usually know the best move to make in a certain situation, while a great player will be planning 5-10 moves ahead and making sure he puts himself in a good position to succeed down the road. I could go on for days why I think he is a world better than Whaley, but ultimately it will come down to the Win Loss record. Time will tell. 

[transient]

11 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

True but remember Whaley never really had a say with the HC...

 

Maybe so, but if the rumor mill is to be believed he wanted Hue Jackson over Rex... which at the time may have seemed reasonable... however in hindsight would have been one of the few coaching hires that could have been both more of a douche and a worse coach than Rex.

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Cleaned up salary cap disaster in one year

 

Wheeled and dealed to get into position to draft a franchise QB

 

Not afraid to roll the dice on an upside player, and more importantly, not afraid to admit a mistake and cut their ass if it doesn’t work

 

Addressed O-line and WR,  largest team weaknesses in FA, on team friendly deals without breaking the bank

 

Still has a top 10 draft pick in his pocket and nine other picks

 

Should have @$100 million in space next year to extend our own talent instead of watching it walk

 

Has the stones to go after AB, and the brains to walk away

 

Gets up in front of the entire NFL and national sports media and tells them all to suck his d*** for bad mouthing Buffalo

 

We’ll all see how it plays out on the field this season, but I think Beane has this franchise in the best shape it’s been in twenty years

 

 

 

I like Beane a lot. He looks like he's got an intelligent plan.

 

But some of your points here can be looked at just as easily as negatives.

 

He had the brains to walk away can be just as easily looked at as "He was forced to walk away in abject defeat with no hope of accomplishing his goal." He still has a top 10 draft pick can be looked at as "they were among the 10 worst teams last year and have a first round pick as does nearly every team. Big deal." Wheeled and dealed to get into position to draft a franchise QB could just as easily be looked at as, "spent a ton of draft capital to draft a QB, but then ended up with a guy who is not accurate. He's smart, competitive and a hard worker, but could easily turn out a bust." You spun 'em positively, I spun 'em negatively. Neither is outright untrue, at this point.

 

And I really doubt they'll have $100 mill in space next year. We're already down to $75 mill, as he's continued spending. $75 mill sure ain't peanuts, but they were 10th in space a few days ago but have now climbed up to 9th. People should keep up with this before making claims about it.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2020/

 

Best shape it's been in 20 years? I don't see it. The 2004 Bills looked a lot better than this as did the Music City Miracle Bills. And right now Beane's gains are all on papers. The Nix Bills just up till they picked EJ and handed the reins over to Whaley had as much potential as this group, IMHO.

 

I'm really really hopeful. If I had to bet, I'd go very positive. But he hasn't proved much yet, not coming off a 6 win season, he hasn't. And I'll be the first to say that he was rebuilding and shouldn't be blamed for a bad record at this point. True. But we have yet to see how the rebuild turns out. Some work great. Some very much don't.

 

I think he's smart and I love his plan. But the cake's still in the oven.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

A little defense would have helped. The talent on the 2015 and 2016 teams WAS playoff quality.  That team would have made playoffs if only Rex could coach defense which evidently he could not.  Not Doug''s fault.  

2

Playoff quality? Perhaps the defensive players. The 2015 Bills offense was 31st in passing attempts and 28th in passing yards, 20th in passing TDs.  2016 saw the Bills pass game slightly regress to 32nd in the NFL and 30th in yards, 27th in passing TDs. The Bills 2015-2016 lacked a quality QB who could make plays through the air. The year previous the Bills went 9-7 with Kyle Orton at QB and the run game was 25th in yards. 

 

Like I said the biggest flaws with Nix, Whaley were that they failed to find that franchise QB.

 

 

Nevertheless, Whaley was in a position to thoroughly vet Rex Ryan when they were interviewing him for the HCing job. With Whaley being the GM he should have asked what scheme he intends to use with the defense and what players he would want to draft to improve it.

 

Ryan was hired Jan 13, 2015, and I can only imagine that while he was interviewed twice they must have asked how, what, when with the defense. During the interview process, Ryan must have let them know that he intended to have Dennis Thurman run his defense again because at that same time it was known that Jim Schwartz would not be back. 

 

Anyone with a pro football brain should have known that the 3-4 scheme that Ryan ran with the Jets depended on the D line players eating up blockers while not rushing the passer so the more talented linebackers could make the plays. In Buffalo, because the D line was far more talented then the LBers, Schwartz ran a 4-3 that allowed the D linemen to rush the passer and only occasionally dropped into pass coverage. 

 

Clearly, Rex Ryan should have never been hired in the first place unless he was to keep Jim Schwartz as DC. There were real reasons as to why Doug Whaley was fired as GM and why he is no longer working as a GM in the NFL. 

[Inigo Montoya]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I like Beane a lot. He looks like he's got an intelligent plan.

 

But some of your points here can be looked at just as easily as negatives.

 

He had the brains to walk away can be just as easily looked at as "He was forced to walk away in abject defeat with no hope of accomplishing his goal." He still has a top 10 draft pick can be looked at as "they were among the 10 worst teams last year and have a first round pick as does nearly every team. Big deal." Wheeled and dealed to get into position to draft a franchise QB could just as easily be looked at as, "spent a ton of draft capital to draft a QB, but then ended up with a guy who is not accurate. He's smart, competitive and a hard worker, but could easily turn out a bust." You spun 'em positively, I spun 'em negatively. Neither is outright untrue, at this point.

 

And I really doubt they'll have $100 mill in space next year. We're already down to $75 mill, as he's continued spending. $75 mill sure ain't peanuts, but they were 10th in space a few days ago but have now climbed up to 9th. People should keep up with this before making claims about it.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2020/

 

Best shape it's been in 20 years? I don't see it. The 2004 Bills looked a lot better than this as did the Music City Miracle Bills. And right now Beane's gains are all on papers. The Nix Bills just up till they picked EJ and handed the reins over to Whaley had as much potential as this group, IMHO.

 

I'm really really hopeful. If I had to bet, I'd go very positive. But he hasn't proved much yet, not coming off a 6 win season, he hasn't. And I'll be the first to say that he was rebuilding and shouldn't be blamed for a bad record at this point. True. But we have yet to see how the rebuild turns out. Some work great. Some very much don't.

 

I think he's smart and I love his plan. But the cake's still in the oven.

 

 

 

All valid points and well reasoned positions. I appreciate you disagreeing with my post without being disagreeable, something that is sorely lacking here at times.

 

I plead guilty to not looking at Sportrac before posting “@$100 million”.  I would guess we will be around $80-85 million in cap space after we sign our rookies and release players at cut downs, and if the salary cap goes up again next year. 

 

I think Beane and McDermott and the Pegulas are all on the same page, they have a plan, and they seem to be working that plan.

 

Let’s just unpack this free agency.  Like most here, I have been banging the “fix the O-line drum” all off-season.  I was hoping Beane would be able to upgrade two O-line positions in FA before heading into the draft, and it looks like Beane has upgraded four.

 

He added two veteran wide receivers who can catch the ball and show the young guys in the WR room how to be a pro.  They even poached the best receiver in the CFL and I’m excited to see what he can do.

 

I’m also big on Andre Roberts, a less heralded signing, but I wouldn’t be surprised to look back at a game this season where his return ability meant the difference between a win and a loss for this team. A modest amount of cap space very wisely spent.

 

I’m not a pie in the sky Bill’s fan.  I’ve been a Bill’s fan far too long for that.  I agree with you 100% that the proof of how well Beane is really doing will play out over the next couple of seasons in the wins and losses column.

 

At the end of the day though, when I try and look at where this franchise is objectively, I think this team is on the road to being relevant again for the first time in a long time. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Playoff quality? Perhaps the defensive players. The 2015 Bills offense was 31st in passing attempts and 28th in passing yards, 20th in passing TDs.  2016 saw the Bills pass game slightly regress to 32nd in the NFL and 30th in yards, 27th in passing TDs. The Bills 2015-2016 lacked a quality QB who could make plays through the air. The year previous the Bills went 9-7 with Kyle Orton at QB and the run game was 25th in yards. 

 

Like I said the biggest flaws with Nix, Whaley were that they failed to find that franchise QB.

 

 

Nevertheless, Whaley was in a position to thoroughly vet Rex Ryan when they were interviewing him for the HCing job. With Whaley being the GM he should have asked what scheme he intends to use with the defense and what players he would want to draft to improve it.

 

Ryan was hired Jan 13, 2015, and I can only imagine that while he was interviewed twice they must have asked how, what, when with the defense. During the interview process, Ryan must have let them know that he intended to have Dennis Thurman run his defense again because at that same time it was known that Jim Schwartz would not be back. 

 

Anyone with a pro football brain should have known that the 3-4 scheme that Ryan ran with the Jets depended on the D line players eating up blockers while not rushing the passer so the more talented linebackers could make the plays. In Buffalo, because the D line was far more talented then the LBers, Schwartz ran a 4-3 that allowed the D linemen to rush the passer and only occasionally dropped into pass coverage. 

 

Clearly, Rex Ryan should have never been hired in the first place unless he was to keep Jim Schwartz as DC. There were real reasons as to why Doug Whaley was fired as GM and why he is no longer working as a GM in the NFL. 

 

Unfortunately the decision was made by two people who don't have a pro football brain. Terry and Kim Pegula. I don't believe anyone else in that room, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley or the person making the coffee had any say. The Pegulas fell for Rex and nothing anyone said was going to stop them hiring him. They realised their mistake soon enough but then bottled the decision that they wanted to make at the end of 2015 (which was to make Rex a one and done HC).

 

Actually it was the same in the McDermott search. Doug Whaley liked Kris Richard a lot and still wanted to interview Keith Butler but the Pegulas had made their minds up, they had found their guy and the job was McDermott's. Very quickly they then put him in total control of the football operation until such time they could acquire his own hand picked GM. Now I think they learned from hiring Rex to hiring McDermott and they had a much better profile of the kind of person you need to build sustainable long term NFL success the second time around and I think they made an immeasurably better choice.

 

But know this - while Terry and Kim Pegula own and run the Buffalo Bills THEY and they alone will choose the Head Coach. The job of the front office of the day will only ever be to draw up the list of candidates. The choice with be theirs. Now I believe they chose very well 2nd time around and hopefully as a result we will not need to hire a new Head Coach for many years to come. But when we do.... it will be Terry and Kim's guy again.

 

EDIT: To add as well - the reason Kyle Shanahan (the hottest coordinator in a headset in the hiring round that brought us McD) was not a candidate last time was because the Pegulas took an instant dislike to him during the 2015 process that led to Rex. He was blacklisted by them at that point. Yet more evidence that the people making the coaching decisions in Buffalo are the Pegulas. It is indisputable at this point.

Edited April 5, 2019 by GunnerBill

[longtimebillsfan]

I enjoy reading the responses to this thread.  I realize the Bill's Mafia (I am a life long member) have suffered unspeakable emotional abuse as a fan, but why be so apprehensive when it comes to showing some love for Beane?  The Beane regime just has a different feel than the previous Bills has since 2000.  He actually seems to have an effective strategy to build a consistent winner in Buffalo. 

 

Besides a heart crushing beat down,  what do we have to lose to go all in on Beane?

 

 Be bold.  Throw caution aside.  Embrace the Beane.   He is the man and he will lead us to glory.

 

Lifetime contract for Beane!!! 

 

Go Bills!!! 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by longtimebillsfan

[BillyWhiteShows]

20 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

The ability to try and make a trade for AB and then get turned down just can't be taught. ?

 

Make bad personnel decisions and then move on.... the talent just radiates from him.

 

 

15-17 record so far here....top 5? Best GM in the league for sure.??

 

If you are using record as an indicator of success, where does your favorite GM Doug Whaley rate?

[billsfan_34]

7 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Brandon was Whaleys boss and ultimately the Pegulas made the decision.

No, that just seems to be the case now.  In my opinion he has done a well above average job.  He hasnt earned any top 5 status yet.  But if you look around the league you will see GMs wandering in the dark.  At least ours seems to have a plan and methodology.

Sometimes you have to make a stand- Whaley failed to do so

[formerlyofCtown]

40 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Sometimes you have to make a stand- Whaley failed to do so

True