Did we land a top 5 GM in Beane?

[Socal-805]

 

Show me the WINS.

 

Right now he's no better than anybody else since Pollian.

 

I am optimistic though, as a BILLS fan must be, given it's our favorite time of year:  PRE-DRAFT!

 

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Whaley didn't run the 2017 draft.  Brandon, likely with help from McDermott or just McDermott ran it since Whaley was already shut out of the decision making.  He was fired the day after the draft, probably on orders from Pegula.  Ralph Wilson was attributed to have said something like Brandon was "like his son".  From 2006, he pretty much had free rein in running the team, and as Wilson's health deteriorated after 2010, Brandon operated as defacto owner until Pegula purchased the team in October 2013.   How, in the light of Wilson's support and Brandon's power within the organization, was Whaley supposed to tell Brandon to "stay out of the football side of the house"?   How long do you think you'd last in your job if you trotted up to the CEO of your employer and told him to keep his nose out of running the business?

 

 

Ralph Wilson ran this frachise very poorly for many years, with the exception of catching lightning in a bottle with Pollian, who he then fired.

 

 

[billsfan_34]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Whaley didn't run the 2017 draft.  Brandon, likely with help from McDermott or just McDermott ran it since Whaley was already shut out of the decision making.  He was fired the day after the draft, probably on orders from Pegula.  Ralph Wilson was attributed to have said something like Brandon was "like his son".  From 2006, he pretty much had free rein in running the team, and as Wilson's health deteriorated after 2010, Brandon operated as defacto owner until Pegula purchased the team in October 2013.   How, in the light of Wilson's support and Brandon's power within the organization, was Whaley supposed to tell Brandon to "stay out of the football side of the house"?   How long do you think you'd last in your job if you trotted up to the CEO of your employer and told him to keep his nose out of running the business?

Im not talking just 2017- his entire body of work just wasn’t good enough. A person in the executive branch of leadership MUST have enough gumption and fortitude to tell the powers that be to back off, stay in your own lane etc... thats leadership 101 stuff and if they dont listen then resign because if not your doomed period end of story- Whaley ended up getting canned and Russ shortly after!

Edited April 8, 2019 by billsfan_34

[Nihilarian]

6 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

So many forget the Whaley blunders. IMO his biggest mistake was not standing up to Russ Brandon and telling him to stay away from the football side of the house.

Whaley was a GM in name only as he had little actual power. He basically couldn't because Brandon was the team president!   When team owner Ralph Wilson was team president for decades he had his hands in/on everything in the football side of the Org too. Wilson was in the draft room every draft and he was "helping" make choices. Kinda why the team didn't draft QBs for so many years and instead drafted a lot of RBs, CBs with those first round picks.

 

It took Rex Ryan telling the media that Brandon was so involved in the football process that the team president/head marketing man in the org was in the teams "cut room" and on the phone to players instead of doing his job in the Bills front office. You can't really get more involved in the football side of the team than to be talking to players about to be released during the cut downs.  

 

Brandon was so involved football side of the org since he took over for GM Marv Levy as de facto GM in 2008 that when the new owners took over he directed them to do the very same things that the late owner was doing with the team. Thankfully, the Pegula's saw the error in this when they hired/fired Rex Ryan and then hired Sean McDermott. Rather than listen to Brandon who was moved to only the FO of the Bills, Sabres, Bandits, Americans. They consulted with many, many NFL people before they hired McD and then gave him the power to select the next GM. Unlike Wilson, Brandon I think these new owners are "hands off" the football side now.  

Edited April 9, 2019 by Nihilarian

[XABI64]

he literally hasn't won anything yet. 

 

until we get a division title or deep playoff run you can't consider this front office successful. 

[SoTier]

13 hours ago, Socal-805 said:

 

Show me the WINS.

 

Right now he's no better than anybody else since Pollian.

 

I am optimistic though, as a BILLS fan must be, given it's our favorite time of year:  PRE-DRAFT!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ralph Wilson ran this frachise very poorly for many years, with the exception of catching lightning in a bottle with Pollian, who he then fired.

 

 

 

Exactly right.  Beane hasn't even been with the Bills for 2 entire years, so he really can't be judged good or bad.  The 2017 FA period and draft weren't his.  The 2018 FA was his and it was uninspiring.  The 2018 draft is still a question mark because nobody knows how rookies are going to develop, no matter how they played as rookies.   The Bills have been active in FA in 2019 and have upgraded the talent on the offense, which doesn't say much because the offensive talent was so lacking last season.   Beane has shown that he's good at tearing a team down but he hasn't proven that he can build one back up yet, and that starts with Allen.  If Allen doesn't light it up, Beane will be toast ... but that's going to take a couple more years to shake out.

 

As for Wilson, I totally agree, and his worse decision was bringing in Brandon -- at least from the POV of any Bills fan who wants to see a return to winning football.   Before he came to Buffalo, Brandon's claim to fame was the dismantling of the world champion Florida Marlins the year after they won the World Series.  Brandon literally held a fire sale of all of the talented ball players on the team, with the payroll falling from one of the highest to the league to the lowest ... and the Marlins went from top to bottom in 1 season.  IIRC, they had the worse record of any WS winner in the season after their Series win in MLB history.

 

I was a big supporter of Pegula as owner until he decided to keep and then promote Brandon.    I think that the only remaining exec from Wilson's ownership is Overdorf, the supposed "cap genius" who was responsible for contracts.  If Beane is truly in charge and truly interested in winning games, I think he'd do well to get rid of Overdorf and bring somebody who actually IS a "cap genius".   All the teams have the same amount of money to spend on players but somehow the Bills can never "afford" to keep their home-grown talent despite not paying a premium QB salary while other teams can afford franchise QBs, outstanding pass rushers, star receivers, etc.  That so many players the Bills "couldn't afford" or "weren't worth the money" have been major contributors to so many playoff and Super Bowl teams over the last decade is a major indictment of Brandon and Overdorf.

 

[SoTier]

8 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Whaley was a GM in name only as he had little actual power. He basically couldn't because Brandon was the team president!   When team owner Ralph Wilson was team president for decades he had his hands in/on everything in the football side of the Org too. Wilson was in the draft room every draft and he was "helping" make choices. Kinda why the team didn't draft QBs for so many years and instead drafted a lot of RBs, CBs with those first round picks.

 

It took Rex Ryan telling the media that Brandon was so involved in the football process that the team president/head marketing man in the org was in the teams "cut room" and on the phone to players instead of doing his job in the Bills front office. You can't really get more involved in the football side of the team than to be talking to players about to be released during the cut downs.  

 

Brandon was so involved football side of the org since he took over for GM Marv Levy as de facto GM in 2008 that when the new owners took over he directed them to do the very same things that the late owner was doing with the team. Thankfully, the Pegula's saw the error in this when they hired/fired Rex Ryan and then hired Sean McDermott. Rather than listen to Brandon who was moved to only the FO of the Bills, Sabres, Bandits, Americans. They consulted with many, many NFL people before they hired McD and then gave him the power to select the next GM. Unlike Wilson, Brandon I think these new owners are "hands off" the football side now.  

 

I don't agree with your last paragraph because I don't think McDermott picked Beane, but the first part of your post about Wilson and Brandon's involvement in the team is pretty much common knowledge.  Whaley was essentially a talent scout.  He and Brandon were college pals, and Brandon hired him to evaluate college and pro players but not to actually be the guy to make the final decisions.  Brandon's top consideration in dealing with players was always the financial bottom line.  I think that McDermott had considerable influence on Beane being selected because I think that Pegula wanted a HC/GM that could work together well but I don't think he made the decision.

 

I'm not in favor of HCs being "in charge" of scouting talent or in being independent from the GM.  I think that the most effective organizational model has a GM at the top who reports to the owner, and everybody else eventually reports up to him.  The GM picks the assistant GMs and the HC.  Everybody works together because the "chain of command" is clear and consistent.  The Bills organizational model under both Wilson and Pegula is flawed because it allows for separate chains of command that too frequently compete and conflict with one another.   The flip flopping of defensive systems with every new coach -- and consequently retooling the defense almost biennially -- is a manifestation of this poor organization.  Nobody making the decision on Bills HCs knows/cares enough about football to take that into consideration and hire a HC who will pick a DC who runs the system that fits the players already on the team when that defense is already a good one (as Schwartz's D was in 2014). 

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

  I think that McDermott had considerable influence on Beane being selected because I think that Pegula wanted a HC/GM that could work together well but I don't think he made the decision.

 

  The Bills organizational model under both Wilson and Pegula is flawed because it allows for separate chains of command that too frequently compete and conflict with one another.  

2

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently to what you suggest as I also feel that McD had considerable influence on the Beane hire as they previously had worked together in Carolina. The Pegula's did interview four people for the GM job. 

 

 

Also, the Bills model under these new owners is no longer flawed in my view. It started that way as Brandon had great influence over these new owners at first and I think that changed quickly after they fired Rex Ryan. My take is the new owners in not knowing anything about how to run an NFL team kept Brandon to help them run their new team. Once his character came into question and he resigned. It was then Kim Pegula took over as president. From what I see/read the Pegula's are not involved in the football side of the Org. 

[formerlyofCtown]

20 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...so am I #1, 2 or 3?...just askin'.............

Lol you havent quite made the list yet.?  

 

It takes persistent stupidity and the wasting of my time.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

23 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Lol you havent quite made the list yet.?  

 

It takes persistent stupidity and the wasting of my time.

 

...well at least I'm halfway there, right??..........