Did we land a top 5 GM in Beane?

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

This is what you stated and you make that statement with nothing to back it up but speculation. 

 

"Whaley, who was in the room for the interview process that led to Rex getting hired, has been in Buffalo since 2010. That's seven seasons of the soon-to-be 17-year drought. Brandon has been here for nearly two decades of this drought. He was the one who hired Whaley. He's the one who helped hire Doug Marrone. And yes, he's the one who told Pegula not to let Rex Ryan leave the building. He texted Rex with advice for how to woo the Pegulas."

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2016/12/can_the_pegulas_trust_doug_whaley_and_russ_brandon_to_help_hire_bills_next_coach.html

 

"After an extensive search, conducted by myself, Kim (Pegula), Russ (Brandon), and Doug Whaley, the Buffalo Bills have hired a new head coach and that coach is Rex Ryan."

 

"We went into this process very open-minded, the four of us. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of debating, which is always healthy."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Q: What made you decide that Rex was your guy?

 

TP: The first round of the interviews were broad-type questions. When we called him back and got into the nitty gritty, Doug hit him with all this stuff that put me to sleep (Laughs). That’s when we knew that Rex could be our coach, if he wanted to be. We just felt that he was our guy and trust me, we had some pretty impressive people that we felt could the Bills coach, but we said, “Hey, let’s go after Rex.” Russ told me, “Don’t let him out of the building.”

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/complete-transcript-rex-ryan-s-introduction-14782098

 

I posted a link which stated that the Pegula's took their time and consulted with many, many NFL people before hiring McD. This wasn't a snap decision on either hire by the owners like you suggest. The links I posted to support this and it is not just my speculation.

 

Yes, the Pegula's had the final decision on who they hired to be the head coach of their NFL franchise. Bottom line to my main point, Doug Whaley had a voice and backed the Rex Ryan hire from what I read. 

 

The Rex Ryan hire was the Pegulas choice. The link you posted even says so. Do I believe Doug Whaley vehemently objected? No, but the Pegulas chose Rex and then Brandon said don't let him leave the building. 

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

I posted a link which stated that the Pegula's took their time and consulted with many, many NFL people before hiring McD. This wasn't a snap decision on either hire by the owners like you suggest. The links I posted to support this and it is not just my speculation.

 

I never suggested he was a snap hire. All I said is once they had interviewed him the decision was made. No speculation. 

[Nihilarian]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Rex Ryan hire was the Pegulas choice. The link you posted even says so. Do I believe Doug Whaley vehemently objected? No, but the Pegulas chose Rex and then Brandon said don't let him leave the building. 

 

I never suggested he was a snap hire. All I said is once they had interviewed him the decision was made. No speculation. 

I already agreed it was the Pegula's choice with both hires. 

 

This whole thing started because you said, 

"Unfortunately the decision was made by two people who don't have a pro football brain. Terry and Kim Pegula. I don't believe anyone else in that room, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley or the person making the coffee had any say."

 

When clearly both Whaley and Brandon had debated the hire of Rex Ryan and they said so in their own words!

 

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

but the moment the Pegulas interviewed McDermott they were hiring him.

Sounds to me like you state it was a snap hire... when in fact the Pegula's talked it over with many, many NFL people before they hired McD.  

 

You want the last word by refuting the links I posted of what actually happened, go ahead! Even when you clearly state something...then go on to refute it. I can see you choose to believe what you want to believe. I won't be responding to any more speculation. 

[ProcessAccepted]

9 hours ago, SoTier said:

I can name at least 8 ...

 

8. John Dorsey of the Browns

7. Brett Veach with Andy Reid of the Chiefs.

6. Mickey Loomis of the Saints   1 SB

5. John Schneider with Pete Carrol of the Seahawks   1 SB

4. Howie Roseman of the Eagles  1 SB

3. Les Snead of the Rams

2. Kevin Colbert of the Steelers   1 losing season since 2000, 2 SBs

1. Bill Belichick of the Patriots   1 losing season since 2000,  6 SBs

 

I'd would also have added Ozzie Newsome of the Baltimore Ravens with 2 SB wins but he retired in 2018.   Maybe you should expand your horizons beyond Buffalo and WNY.

 

There's several guys on your list that I'd put down as "the grass is always greener over there" syndrome. For example the first name on your list. While John Dorsey is a very good talent scout he has never won anything as GM despite his penchant for spending now and mismanaging the salary cap. (Plus didn't we get a 3rd for Tyrod from the Browns last year). Managing the salary is a critical part of the job that frankly a lot of great scouts lack this ability when they rise up the ranks. This is one area where the Patriots excel.

 

Howie Roseman and the Eagles got lucky with the SB win. Personally they wouldn't have won that championship without Foles coming in. They wouldn't have made the playoffs last year either. I believe Wentz (in his 3rd year) had the same 5-6 record that our rookie Josh Allen had.  Lets see how the Eagles fare in 2019 before crowning John Schneider. 

 

I do agree with you about the Seahawks, Steelers & Patriots. Ozzie Newsome was the sole reason that I said current. The guy was phenomenal.

 

I would suggest that maybe you focus a little on Buffalo and WNY and not on the green grass over there. Look as how the organization was run after Polian was fired. Look at the mismanagement of cap, roster and coaching staffs. Look at how long that went on for. Beane has come in and systematically attacked the organizational malaise. He's making trades like Tyrod for a 3rd and McCarron for a 5th. He's bringing in FA, some of which have been great additions, and moved out players like Dareus who's effort did not match their talent. Look at how different this team is from when he took over from Whaley/Ryan. The guy has made major changes to the Bills all before his 2nd draft. I'm not saying he's top 5 but he deserves to be in the conversation.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

I already agreed it was the Pegula's choice with both hires. 

 

This whole thing started because you said, 

"Unfortunately the decision was made by two people who don't have a pro football brain. Terry and Kim Pegula. I don't believe anyone else in that room, Russ Brandon, Doug Whaley or the person making the coffee had any say."

 

When clearly both Whaley and Brandon had debated the hire of Rex Ryan and they said so in their own words!

 

Sounds to me like you state it was a snap hire... when in fact the Pegula's talked it over with many, many NFL people before they hired McD.  

 

You want the last word by refuting the links I posted of what actually happened, go ahead! Even when you clearly state something...then go on to refute it. I can see you choose to believe what you want to believe. I won't be responding to any more speculation. 

 

No you obviously have misunderstood my posts if you think it was a snap hire. You never seem to get the point of anything I write. 

[SoTier]

10 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Nobody gets everything right.  You want to pick out 1 or 2 things.  I dont consider him top ten let alone top 5 yet.  But you are just at the other radical spectrum.  Most of us are in the middle.  Some insane people are "SuperBowl" and actually mean it and then there are the crowd you are with.  Even if we win a Lambardi you will say its luck.

 

Actually, I'm skeptical.  I want to see Beane actually do SOMETHING genuinely impressive before I consider him "good" much less "great", and so far, he's simply hasn't been here long enough to do that.   That Russ Brandon had a significant hand in his select definitely counts against him.

 

FTR, for any team to win the Lombardi trophy in any given year is sheer luck.  The organization has to select a good HC, and he's got to put together a good staff, and that staff has to stay together to give some continuity (which hard for winning teams to do because their assistants continually get poached by other teams).  Then the team has to put together a quality roster of veterans and younger talent, and key players have to stay healthy while unproven youngsters have to step up and fill holes when they occur.  Finally, a team has to avoid fluke plays, terrible calls, and other impossible-to-anticipate situations as in the Music City Miracle in 2000, the Minneapolis Miracle in 2017, and the phantom PI call against the Saints last season. 

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Actually, I'm skeptical.  I want to see Beane actually do SOMETHING genuinely impressive before I consider him "good" much less "great", and so far, he's simply hasn't been here long enough to do that.   That Russ Brandon had a significant hand in his select definitely counts against him.

 

FTR, for any team to win the Lombardi trophy in any given year is sheer luck.  The organization has to select a good HC, and he's got to put together a good staff, and that staff has to stay together to give some continuity (which hard for winning teams to do because their assistants continually get poached by other teams).  Then the team has to put together a quality roster of veterans and younger talent, and key players have to stay healthy while unproven youngsters have to step up and fill holes when they occur.  Finally, a team has to avoid fluke plays, terrible calls, and other impossible-to-anticipate situations as in the Music City Miracle in 2000, the Minneapolis Miracle in 2017, and the phantom PI call against the Saints last season. 

3rd round pick for a QB we were likely going to cut. I can't put my stamp on such lofty praise until we are perannial playoff participants.  Russ Brandon was already on his way out the door even if he didnt know it.  McDermott is who selected Beane, I would bet on it.

Edited April 6, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No you obviously have misunderstood my posts if you think it was a snap hire. You never seem to get the point of anything I write. 

 

What FormerlyofCtown can't seem to understand -- or deliberately misunderstands -- is that while Brandon and/or Whaley could give recommendations on the coaching hires, the final decision on who to hire belonged to the Pegulas, and their preferences trumped -- and will continue to trump -- all.   Ryan was a big name HC looking for a new gig in 2015 who expressed interest in the Bills job, so neither Brandon nor Whaley could keep him off their final list of candidates.  Unfortunately, Ryan impressed the Pegulas.  Blame for the Ryan hiring rests solely on the ownership.  The credit or blame for the McDermott hiring will also rest solely on the Pegulas, not their staff.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

19 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

You lost me at Jerry. Old, zero accountability within the organization of yes men, and not innovative in his football thinking whatsoever.  Sure he’s brought in some pieces and sort of hit on Dak, but hardly the stuff of legend, and he’s had many many years to get Dallas over the hump since taking the GM mantle for himself. More misses than hits at any rate. I’ll take Beane’s upside here any day, sorry.

 

I hear you. Just looking at the short term. The last 3-4 years player personnel has been great for Dallas. Don't know if it is Jerry, his son or someone else but can't argue with that success.

 

[SoTier]

3 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

3rd round pick for a QB we were likely going to cut. I can't put my stamp on such lofty praise until we are perannial playoff participants.  Russ Brandon was already on his way out the door even if he didnt know it.  McDermott is who selected Beane, I would bet on it.

 

The only reason to get rid of Taylor was to clear out all the competition so that the first round rookie QB the Bills had yet to draft would be guaranteed to start early on in the season.  That's why Peterman and McCarron were the two "veterans"on the roster  -- and that's a very "Brandonesque" move as he did pretty something very similar in 2013 before they drafted Manuel. 

 

The scenario that Taylor would have caused division in the locker room has always been utter fantasy.  Taylor started for the Browns, and accepted being replaced by Mayfield with the grace and dignity he has always displayed, including when he was foolishly replaced by Peterman in 2017.  Moreover, he would have provided Allen with a real mentor, especially given David Culley's lack of experience as a QB coach.  In fact, the handling of the QB situation in 2018, demonstrated serious incompetence on the entire Bills organization from the owner down to the coaches.  If Allen is not a success -- and QBs drafted outside the #1 draft position have only turned out to be successes about half the time since 2000 -- how much of that is because of the poor coaching that the Bills gave him.

 

I don't know if Brandon was on his way out in the spring of 2018 or not because he was fired for personal misconduct rather than for how he ran either the football or hockey team, but Beane is pretty much a younger version of Brandon in that his background is on the administrative/business side of football ops rather in player personnel.  While McDermott may have had input into the choice of a new GM, he didn't select Beane.  That decision came from either Brandon or, more likely, the Pegulas.

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

14 hours ago, SoTier said:

I can name at least 8 ...

 

8. John Dorsey of the Browns

7. Brett Veach with Andy Reid of the Chiefs.

6. Mickey Loomis of the Saints   1 SB

5. John Schneider with Pete Carrol of the Seahawks   1 SB

4. Howie Roseman of the Eagles  1 SB

3. Les Snead of the Rams

2. Kevin Colbert of the Steelers   1 losing season since 2000, 2 SBs

1. Bill Belichick of the Patriots   1 losing season since 2000,  6 SBs

 

I'd would also have added Ozzie Newsome of the Baltimore Ravens with 2 SB wins but he retired in 2018.   Maybe you should expand your horizons beyond Buffalo and WNY.

 

 

Thank you! Great list. You obviously know your GM's far more than I or at least took sometime to look into them. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

23 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

I haven't come out and said that he's top 5 but if there's a conversation about the top 5 GM happening then hell yeah Beane should be in that conversation.

 

As So Tier pointed out, he isn't even Top 8, Top 9 when you include Newsome. So how is he in the conversation for Top 5? 

 

Who care's what the pundits say. You don't get a pat on the back for winning six games in this league. That is not some remarkable achievement. We have fielded a ton of bad teams over the last 18 years or so and despite that, only twice I think we loss fewer than 6 games.  Beane might have a different approach than previous GM's and maybe that is what will lead him to long-term success. But in the short term he is no better than any of the other GM's we have had. He's literally had one full season that ended in six wins. All the new free agent pieces are pure speculation as to how they will perform. 

22 hours ago, ddaryl said:

if we go deep into the playoffs then yes. If we miss playoffs again, or barley make a WC  and don't win a playoff game then no

 

If we were to get to the playoffs in Josh Allen's second year I would have to say that would be a huge success. No matter how we made it and even if we got our doors blown off in the WC game. Nobody can be realistically expecting playoffs next year.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Howie Roseman and the Eagles got lucky with the SB win. Personally they wouldn't have won that championship without Foles coming in. They wouldn't have made the playoffs last year either. I believe Wentz (in his 3rd year) had the same 5-6 record that our rookie Josh Allen had.  Lets see how the Eagles fare in 2019 before crowning John Schneider. 

 

Yeah. It was great luck that their QB who was well on his way to winning the league MVP that year tore his knee up. Luck had nothing to do with it. Eagles have  been a success the last two seasons. Even if they wouldn't have won a super bowl they still would have been a success the last two seasons. But you believe we are being fooled by grass looking greener on the other side? Beane's one remarkable six win season is better than what the Eagles have accomplished the last two years? You are just messing with us now.

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

 

There's several guys on your list that I'd put down as "the grass is always greener over there" syndrome. For example the first name on your list. While John Dorsey is a very good talent scout he has never won anything as GM despite his penchant for spending now and mismanaging the salary cap. (Plus didn't we get a 3rd for Tyrod from the Browns last year). Managing the salary is a critical part of the job that frankly a lot of great scouts lack this ability when they rise up the ranks. This is one area where the Patriots excel.

 

Howie Roseman and the Eagles got lucky with the SB win. Personally they wouldn't have won that championship without Foles coming in. They wouldn't have made the playoffs last year either. I believe Wentz (in his 3rd year) had the same 5-6 record that our rookie Josh Allen had.  Lets see how the Eagles fare in 2019 before crowning John Schneider. 

 

I do agree with you about the Seahawks, Steelers & Patriots. Ozzie Newsome was the sole reason that I said current. The guy was phenomenal.

 

I would suggest that maybe you focus a little on Buffalo and WNY and not on the green grass over there. Look as how the organization was run after Polian was fired. Look at the mismanagement of cap, roster and coaching staffs. Look at how long that went on for. Beane has come in and systematically attacked the organizational malaise. He's making trades like Tyrod for a 3rd and McCarron for a 5th. He's bringing in FA, some of which have been great additions, and moved out players like Dareus who's effort did not match their talent. Look at how different this team is from when he took over from Whaley/Ryan. The guy has made major changes to the Bills all before his 2nd draft. I'm not saying he's top 5 but he deserves to be in the conversation.

 

 

 

I like GMs who are good talent scouts because having a good eye for talent is irreplaceable, and honing that eye only comes with years of experience.  All NFL teams have  cap experts to "manage the cap",  but having the intuitive sense to know which players to pay and which players to let walk in FA only comes from GMs who know and understand football personnel -- and it's priceless as long as the ownership is committed to winning football games rather than only the bottom line.  Bellichick has always had an eye for talent and for how to get the best out that talent, and when he paired up with an owner with a commitment to winning, well, as they say, "the rest is history".

 

As I said in 2017 when Beane was hired and started replacing scouts, there's no guarantee that change is going to result in improvement.  Yes, the Bills in 2019 are a lot different than in 2016.  However,  are they really a better team????  I think the defensive coaching is better.  I think that the offensive coaching may be about the same or slightly worse.   The overall talent level on the team is significantly less than in 2016 though, and certainly the offense remains a dumpster fire until/unless last year's rookies and this year's FA crop prove otherwise.   Moreover, while the McDermott/Beane win-lost record doesn't seem too bad at 15-17, the fact that 9 of the Bills 32 games under "McBeane" were 20+ point losses (28%) is appalling.

 

49 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Thank you! Great list. You obviously know your GM's far more than I or at least took sometime to look into them. 

 

I knew which football organizations I liked best and I knew some of the GMs like Newsome, Belichick, Snead, Roseman, Dorsey, etc but I looked up the GMs that I didn't know by name.  The football team on the field is never going to consistently outperform the quality of the front office that identifies/acquires/retains the personnel on the field.  That's, of course, why the Bills have sucked pretty much since John Butler and AJ Smith said 'adios' and flew out to San Diego in 2000.

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by SoTier

[formerlyofCtown]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

The only reason to get rid of Taylor was to clear out all the competition so that the first round rookie QB the Bills had yet to draft would be guaranteed to start early on in the season.  That's why Peterman and McCarron were the two "veterans"on the roster  -- and that's a very "Brandonesque" move as he did pretty something very similar in 2013 before they drafted Manuel. 

 

The scenario that Taylor would have caused division in the locker room has always been utter fantasy.  Taylor started for the Browns, and accepted being replaced by Mayfield with the grace and dignity he has always displayed, including when he was foolishly replaced by Peterman in 2017.  Moreover, he would have provided Allen with a real mentor, especially given David Culley's lack of experience as a QB coach.  In fact, the handling of the QB situation in 2018, demonstrated serious incompetence on the entire Bills organization from the owner down to the coaches.  If Allen is not a success -- and QBs drafted outside the #1 draft position have only turned out to be successes about half the time since 2000 -- how much of that is because of the poor coaching that the Bills gave him.

 

I don't know if Brandon was on his way out in the spring of 2018 or not because he was fired for personal misconduct rather than for how he ran either the football or hockey team, but Beane is pretty much a younger version of Brandon in that his background is on the administrative/business side of football ops rather in player personnel.  While McDermott may have had input into the choice of a new GM, he didn't select Beane.  That decision came from either Brandon or, more likely, the Pegulas.

 

The reason we got rid of Taylor hes he couldnt get the job done when it mattered most.

[Jpsredemption]

He has a cumulative record of 15-17 and wasn’t responsible for the draft in year 1 or free agency. This is ridiculous to jump the gun. 

And the free agency hauls under him have been suspect. Star and Murphy last year underwhelming and this year a bunch of middling talent. His make or break is Josh Allen. Let’s be honest. 

[ProcessAccepted]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

As So Tier pointed out, he isn't even Top 8, Top 9 when you include Newsome. So how is he in the conversation for Top 5? 

 

Who care's what the pundits say. You don't get a pat on the back for winning six games in this league. That is not some remarkable achievement. We have fielded a ton of bad teams over the last 18 years or so and despite that, only twice I think we loss fewer than 6 games.  Beane might have a different approach than previous GM's and maybe that is what will lead him to long-term success. But in the short term he is no better than any of the other GM's we have had. He's literally had one full season that ended in six wins. All the new free agent pieces are pure speculation as to how they will perform. 

 

If we were to get to the playoffs in Josh Allen's second year I would have to say that would be a huge success. No matter how we made it and even if we got our doors blown off in the WC game. Nobody can be realistically expecting playoffs next year.

How can you be so obtuse? So Tier's list is just crazy wrong as are you. 6 wins while you make the kinds of moves that Beane made is impressive. There is a definite plan in place to restore this franchise's reputation from what it's been for almost 2 decades. If you can't see it (or don't want to see it) then so be it. I'm sure when we are winning the division and competing for a SB you'll be one of the many claiming to have been on board the whole time. 

 

My prediction, if Allen stays healthy, is we make the playoffs this year as a wildcard. Then in 2020 we are a legit contender to win the whole thing. And we won't be heading back to salary cap hell with time-bomb contracts on the books.

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

Yes, the Bills in 2019 are a lot different than in 2016.  However,  are they really a better team????

Wow 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

20 hours ago, Chemical said:

 

Stop with this. AB didn't want to come here it's a FACT.

 

....it's a BLESSING...........

[LSHMEAB]

On 4/4/2019 at 7:14 AM, ProcessAccepted said:

What gets me is how you can get guys being all bombastic and then a few short months later proclaim that they always knew that player x or GM y was going to be amazing.

If we're being honest, the last 25 years have been the inverse. 

 

I don't know if Beane is the best GM in the league or the worst, quite frankly. I think we'll know quite a bit more post 2019.

[Success]

A lot of cautious replies.  We’ve been so beaten down by hope over the years.

 

He’s done an incredible job so far.  The optimism is well founded.  He’s the perfect GM for this time - he is positioning the Bills well to have the opportunity to take over the division post-Brady.

[C.Biscuit97]

33 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

If we're being honest, the last 25 years have been the inverse. 

 

I don't know if Beane is the best GM in the league or the worst, quite frankly. I think we'll know quite a bit more post 2019.

I feel like all this should have been said about Whaley after his 2nd year when we went 9-7 with the number 2 defense.