Buffalo politician: Why wouldn’t you renovate New Era Field

[RobbRiddick]

6 hours ago, Logic said:

I just don't think this is what the NFL wants, and at the end of the day, thats who the Bills need to make happy.

I HAVE wondered, though, why they don't do the old "parking lot stadium swap-a-roo" like the Broncos did. Build a new stadium on the current site of the New Era parking lots, and turn the current New Era Field into new parking lots. Orchard Park is just such a perfect location for the Bills stadium. Why change a thing?

On the other hand, I think the NFL wants the stadium downtown. And a multi-use downtown stadium (with at least a retractable roof, as gross as that sounds) is probably the best way to get the funds needed to build the thing.

As long as the Bills stay in Buffalo, I'll be fine with whatever ultimately needs to happen to get to that point.

Serious question as I know nothing about these things. If the Bills had a stadium with a retractable roof, would they be allowed to keep it open during a freezing snow storm when playing a team like the phins, or any warm weather team, or would that be considered unfair? Of course I'm assuming the fans would want to be outdoors as per tradition but maybe a roof would attract a whole new set of fans and they wouldn't want it open. 

[May Day 10]

5 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Serious question as I know nothing about these things. If the Bills had a stadium with a retractable roof, would they be allowed to keep it open during a freezing snow storm when playing a team like the phins, or any warm weather team, or would that be considered unfair? Of course I'm assuming the fans would want to be outdoors as per tradition but maybe a roof would attract a whole new set of fans and they wouldn't want it open. 

 

Typically, those stadiums are built with materials not designed to go through the elements so to speak and also the field would typically lack the drainage infrastructure to 'weather' a precipitation event.  It would also be an unpopular choice among players, patrons, etc.

 

Also, leave it to humans to not look before hand, and show up in minimal clothing, get frostbite, and sue the team/nfl

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Serious question as I know nothing about these things. If the Bills had a stadium with a retractable roof, would they be allowed to keep it open during a freezing snow storm when playing a team like the phins, or any warm weather team, or would that be considered unfair? Of course I'm assuming the fans would want to be outdoors as per tradition but maybe a roof would attract a whole new set of fans and they wouldn't want it open. 

 

Typically it's the issues with the mechanics working in such severe weather that limit opening/closing the roof, not so much any "fair play" rules.

 

AFAIK, the Bills could try to open the roof during a blizzard. But depending on how that roof works, you're talking about making sure the roof is clear of snow and all the moving pieces are clear and working and not iced up. Then what happens if it freezes open? Plus, those mechanics are always very touchy, and extremely expensive to repair. It's those types of nightmare logistics that cause retractables to stay closed in bad weather.

[RobbRiddick]

2 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

Typically, those stadiums are built with materials not designed to go through the elements so to speak and also the field would typically lack the drainage infrastructure to 'weather' a precipitation event.  It would also be an unpopular choice among players, patrons, etc.

 

Also, leave it to humans to not look before hand, and show up in minimal clothing, get frostbite, and sue the team/nfl

Yeah, it all makes sense now! I was thinking of it being closed purely for other events like concerts. So if it was just freezing cold would they still keep it closed you think? I just love watching the Bills play in the winter and have always hated the way domes destroy that, even though I understand many people want warmth and confort. To me Green Bay is the ideal for playoff football, cold and a grass field. Every time they host a playoff game I get, excuse the pun, chills. 

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Typically it's the issues with the mechanics working in such severe weather that limit opening/closing the roof, not so much any "fair play" rules.

 

AFAIK, the Bills could try to open the roof during a blizzard. But depending on how that roof works, you're talking about making sure the roof is clear of snow and all the moving pieces are clear and working and not iced up. Then what happens if it freezes open? Plus, those mechanics are always very touchy, and extremely expensive to repair. It's those types of nightmare logistics that cause retractables to stay closed in bad weather.

Lol, as above, when someone with more common sense than me explains it, it seems so obvious! 

[May Day 10]

2 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Yeah, it all makes sense now! I was thinking of it being closed purely for other events like concerts. So if it was just freezing cold would they still keep it closed you think? I just love watching the Bills play in the winter and have always hated the way domes destroy that, even though I understand many people want warmth and confort. To me Green Bay is the ideal for playoff football, cold and a grass field. Every time they host a playoff game I get, excuse the pun, chills. 

 

I completely agree.  IMO, its hell in regards to the Detroit Lions.  Every single home game is miscellaneous.  Day, night, weather, etc.  It looks the same like it is being played before a live studio audience.  

 

With the outdoor teams, especially in the N/NE, the weather and time of game is part of the story.  If any Bills home game of the past 12 years or so that I have been a STH come up in conversation, I think of the weather that day.  

 

The 'open' roofed designs that allow natural light, as well as architecture quirks to make these things more dynamic than Ford Field is an improvement.  I would still rather have outdoor, and I think Pegula recently said as much

[dlonce]

Eventually the Orchard Park stadium will be too costly to upgrade due to sub surface level deterioration, then what?

 

In 25 years the cost to build a new stadium will be astronomical. Build a new one now, it will be cheaper in the long run.

Polencartz is what’s wrong with Erie County.

It will be up to the Pegulas. They are waiting for the reports.

 

I wouldn’t call it corporate welfare, more like corporate blackmail.

Edited April 1, 2019 by dlonce

[CommonCents]

2 hours ago, Heitz said:

I knew who the politician was before even opening up the thread...

 

 

His name did look familiar, back when Ralph passed I saw his name a bunch. What’s his deal?

[Mike in Horseheads]

IF they think the structure is good for another 25+ years stay there. Ideas that make sense so far:

... A soccer style roof over the fans.

... Replace the tin bleachers with actual seats. That will cut down on capacity and make it more comfortable.

...  Maybe somehow enclose the concourses so at some heat could be in them.

 

[LabattBlue]

Poloncarz will be changing his tune in regards to a new stadium, and helping fund it, once Pegula states his intentions, and gets the court of public opinion on his side.

 

•  

Edited April 1, 2019 by LabattBlue

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

Everyone knows that. At least anyone who spends any time researching it.

 

It dose not mean this new stadium or renovation is not going to happen. It 100% will happen.

Then this stadium can join the long list of public projects and expenditures that do not return well on the investment. Like roads civic centers schools walmart supercenters etc etc...

 

selling bonds to fund large projects and sometimes very small ones also is a colossal waste of taxpayer money that only bankers appreciate as they make virtually no risk guaranteed profit from interest.

 

If only the founding fathers knew how mucked up this kind of spending was to become they would have enacted some language in our constitution either fed or state that require all spending to be not borrowed.

 

Make the gov't's save money and invest it in money making accounts and then can only spend that for the big projects. This would have made surplus budgets the absolute norm since this country started and fixed a lot of our financial problems.

 

EX: in my area a permanent 1% county sales tax hike was enacted to build a massive new jail and court rooms. Approx cost 50 million. Tax took in 12 mill a year. They then immediately sold 50 million in bonds that will take 30 years or so to pay off if they do not extend them like they usually do.

 

all they had to do was wait 3 years(probably less) or so until the tax had accumulated many millions and then hey guess what. No taxpayer money sucking bonds would have needed to be issued. They would have had plenty of money to pay cash for start of construction at about 2 or 3 years from sales tax start.

...considering the economy of scale in WNY, it may be a tall tariff for Bills fans only to weather increased ticket prices and the likelihood of PSL's to generate enough revenue to cover the debt service for usage of 8 times a year....have no idea what other events, etc could be booked, but a domed facility may give the flexibility to spread the costs over "other than Bills fans".....preetty interesting article on what was projected/intended for Lucas Oil Field multi-use versus what has actually transpired.....

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/marion-county/2018/08/17/lucas-oil-stadium-indianapolis-colts-ncaa-final-four-public-stadium-financing/879179002/

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

Either way, I'm just happy we still have a football team.

 

No offense, but this is a main reason why the Buffalo fan base can continue to accept losing.

[The Senator]

9 hours ago, wppete said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/01/buffalo-politician-why-wouldnt-you-renovate-new-era-field/

 

- Bills owners Terry and Kim Pegula are still evaluating whether to try to build a “scaled-down” new stadium or just renovate the one they have.

But one local politician has made it clear he thinks upgrading New Era Field is the better alternative for his constituents (not all of whom are football fans).

“You have to make the determination of do you build a new stadium or do you renovate the existing stadium and get the best bang for the buck,” Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz told the Buffalo News. “We know if we can extend the lifespan of that stadium for another 25 years, and if it worked for our market, why would we not do that?”

The Pegulas clearly aren’t going to get into an arms race with the Stan Kroenkes and Jerry Joneses of the world to build a new place in Western New York, and have adjusted expectations accordingly.

There’s also the matter of a small trend of cities (other than Las Vegas) becoming more conservative with what they’ll dole out for stadiums.

While the Chiefs got $250 million in public money for a $375 million renovation of Arrowhead Stadium in 2010, the Dolphins’ $500 million upgrade for Hard Rock Stadium came from the place it ostensibly should — owner Stephen Ross’ pocket.

Poloncarz pointed out that the Pegulas have already invested $36 million of their own money (along with $130 million of local money in the last lease) to upgrade the place already. He’s also skeptical of local plans to connect a new stadium to a convention center.

“If you’re going to build a new stadium, you’re going to spend at least a billion dollars, even if it’s not the fanciest stadium in the world,” he said. “It will be expensive, but rarely do you ever see an economic impact in a positive manner for community.”

Regardless the wheres and the whens (and the more important how muches), the Pegulas have yet to raise the possibility of moving the team if they don’t get what they want.

 

Pure self-interest on the part of Polocarz.  He’s worried what he’ll do with several hundred acres of gravel lots and a 70,000 seat stadium once he Bills leave.

 

Terry will have his downtown stadium.

.

[LabattBlue]

4 minutes ago, The Senator said:

 

Pure self-interest on the part of Polocarz.  He’s worried what he’ll do with several hundred acres of gravel lots and a 70,000 seat stadium once he Bills leave.

 

Terry will have his downtown stadium.

.

I'm sure it can become a very nice OP subdivision...that is, the part that doesn't contain the field house and adjacent team facilities.  I would think those would continue to be used, even if a downtown stadium is built.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, The Senator said:

 

Pure self-interest on the part of Polocarz.  He’s worried what he’ll do with several hundred acres of gravel lots and a 70,000 seat stadium once he Bills leave.

 

Terry will have his downtown stadium.

.

 

...from a revitalization and aesthetics perspective, the idea sounds fantastic...but, without MAJOR Federal funding for interstate overhaul, I'm just thinking you're talking about a logistical nightmare......due to the Harbor, downtown possible location is only three directions accessible...probably a worst case or not even feasible occurrence, but imagine Bills downtown for TNF, Sabres in town and 50,000 downtown workers trying to get home....infrastructure work would be in the BILLIONS and with the way THEY move, I could see funding and INITIAL design done by 2042......stadium opening by 2048.......

[Chill]

Polocarz is a terrible politician. He gets bullied by his downstate constituents. Guy is weak as sh** and as corrupt as they come. 

 

Pegula’s should just fund this themselves, 100%. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Chill

[Shaw66]

You know, all you guys are talking about this, and as far as I'm concerned, Terry had the right answer the other day at the owners' meeting.  He said "let's wait until the current study is complete."   That's what a smart business man would do.  

 

So are so many different factors to consider that it's never going to be an easy decision.   

 

If the core infrastructure at New Era is sound, upgrading New Era probably makes the sense.  With $500 million, they probably could widen the concourses, install seats, create some more corporate boxes and upgrade all of them, cover a lot of the seats, do some work on the score boards and sound system.   That would be fine with me.  

 

I have no idea how much control the owners have or what they want, but they certainly understand the math.   The market studies will show how much the fans are willing to pay, and if what they're willing to pay won't cover the cost of a new stadium downtown, I doubt the owners will fight it.  They aren't going to gang up on the Pegulas and force them to drop ANOTHER billion dollars into Buffalo - they already made a lot of money for the owners simply by paying $1.2 billion for the team.   That forced the value of ALL the other franchises up by a few hundred million dollars.   Plus, they aren't going to want the bad publicity that would flow from forcing the Bills to move.   At least that's my guess.  

 

I've said all along that a downtown stadium is a mistake.   It chews up a lot of real estate that eventually is going to be very very valuable, more valuable that a stadium that's used 8 to 15 times a year.   It's not like a baseball venue, that brings in fans 75-90 times a year.  It's just a big white elephant sitting there.   I know others have other opinions.  

 

The good news is that the Pegulas are committed, they're smart and they're tough.   They will force a decision that meets everyone's needs, including the city, the NFL owners and the fans.  Some of us won't like it, but it will be a good decision.  

 

(Plus, by the time it's done, I probably won't be going to games any more, so what do I care?)

[The Senator]

4 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...from a revitalization and aesthetics perspective, the idea sounds fantastic...but, without MAJOR Federal funding for interstate overhaul, I'm just thinking you're talking about a logistical nightmare......due to the Harbor, downtown possible location is only three directions accessible...probably a worst case or not even feasible occurrence, but imagine Bills downtown for TNF, Sabres in town and 50,000 downtown workers trying to get home....infrastructure work would be in the BILLIONS and with the way THEY move, I could see funding and INITIAL design done by 2042......stadium opening by 2048.......

 

Half of those downtown workers will be headed to the Bills game, and- at the rate they’re going - Sabres attendance should be down to 8,000 or less, again, many going directly from work.

.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, The Senator said:

 

Half of those downtown workers will be headed to the Bills game, and- at the rate they’re going - Sabres attendance should be down to 8,000 or less, again, many going directly from work.

.

 

 

.LMAO.......damn you're painful..........

[Saxum]

4 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Tickets are at welfare levels right now, and some current ticket holders are bound to be upset . Yes, the market can afford higher prices. A few slapdash renovations won’t give the Pegulas much pricing power to charge closer to average prices, though. 

 

Slight exaggeration of "welfare levels" unless you are telling us you are on welfare and can afford it.

 

My debate teacher taught me that "Exaggeration is a tool of the unprepared mind".

 

[Inigo Montoya]

 

One thing to consider with renovating New Era field up to a level more consistent with today's NFL stadiums is, as anyone who has moved into a fixer upper can attest, once you start tearing down stuff to replace or fix, you are going to find more "issues" that need to be addressed.  A lot of times fixing those issues is just about as expensive as the planned renovation.  It took me three days to replace a toilet in my house because the standard size of the flange on a toilet in 1952 was no longer the standard size of toilet flanges today.  Now multiply that times a thousand for the "Ralph".  It will be a nightmare.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Bills have no where else to play football if they go down this renovation road.  That means that any renovation will have to be completed between football seasons.  Not much renovating done outside in WNY in January and February due to the weather.  That leaves a roughly 5 month window to get things taken apart and put back together in time for the next season to start.   That's not a very big window to do hundreds of millions of dollars worth of renovations. So it will need to be done incrementally and doing something incrementally increases the cost of the renovations.  It's cheaper doing construction to bring in the whole gang one time and get er done than to set up and tear down, and set up and tear down...

 

I firmly believe it is going to end up being a new construction somewhere down town.  As I noted in a recent post, there is simply too much money to be made by everyone... politicians, developers, union bosses, etc.. by building a new stadium down town.  There will be pressure from all of those entities to tie any public monies to a new stadium, with a roof, downtown.  None of this will get done without public money, and ultimately I think they will only get that money with a new downtown stadium.