vincec Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Maybe, maybe not, but there's no particular reason to think they actually will be worse than 6-10 next year. Marty Schottenheimer in San Diego went 8-8 and then 4-12 his first two years and then won 12 and 14 games in two of the next three seasons. Mike Shanahan's first three years in Washington were 6-10, 5-11 and 10-6, which is pretty damn good for that toxic environment. Dick Vermeil's first two years in St. Louis he went 5-11 and then 4-10, and then his third year was 13-3. Holmgren in Seattle went 9-7 and then 6-10. Mike freakin' Holmgren. Went 9-7 and then 6-10. Why do those numbers seem so familiar to me? Sean Payton went 10-6 and then 7-9 in his first two years with the Saints. The current Raiders coach, when in Tampa, went 12-4 and then plummeted to 7-9. And then 5-11 in his third year. He did pretty well in Tampa as I recall, didn't he? Sam Wyche went 8-8 and then 7-9 in Cincy before having two seasons where he won ten and then 12 games. Wayne Fontes was brought in mid-year and went 2-3, and then kept on. HIs first two full years he went 7-9 and then 6-10 and then had a 12 and two 10-win seasons, damn good in Detroit. Jim Fassel in NY went 10-6 and then 8-8 and then 7-9 and then in the next four years had a 12 and a 10 win season. Depending on how you count it, Jason Garrett went 5-3 his first year and then 8-8 three straight times. He didn't do as well as he'd done his first year till his fifth. I'm just looking down the list of head coaches and remembering guys who had a turnaround. It isn't all that unusual. And I'm far from finished with the list, as my point is made. Every one of those guys you listed were winners their third season. McD needs to do that too.
Thurman#1 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 10 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: Those management teams stay consistent because they are winning. Not the other way around... Some of both, actually. A lot of times consistency allows management to win. Would you keep a guy who went 1-13, 5-9 and 6-8? You would if you're PIttsburgh and that meant they kept Chuck Noll. Yeah, an owner ought to be looking at what the front office is doing. And if the GM is obviously out of his depth or the coach loses the locker room, yeah, you throw 'em out. But equally, improvement sometimes doesn't immediately show up as wins. Sometimes you have to wait and figure if they're not doing the job, or if they're headed towards a tipping point but just haven't reached it yet. Look at Garrett. I'm no huge fan, but I don't think he's the problem in Dallas. 5-3, 8-8, 8-8, and 8-8. And since then three out of five years with double-digit wins.
Coach Tuesday Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 The Pegulas have the Management Yips. They've made so many bad decisions, and have achieved so little success, that they've effectively "froze." Terry admitted as much when he said "Something needs to change, but we don't know what." They don't know what to do, and seem blind or stubborn about bringing in a czar for either organization who would direct them about what to do. Both organizations have been rife with dysfunction during their tenure, and the "horizontal" (more diagonal) reporting structures they've created have led to chaos and a lack of clarity of roles. And they continue to learn on the job - and allow rookie GMs and rookie coaches to do the same, all at the fans' expense. They are really nice people. They may be the worst owners in professional sports. 1
Thurman#1 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, vincec said: Every one of those guys you listed were winners their third season. McD needs to do that too. Yeah, um, no. Go back and look again. Gruden had five wins in his third year and a bunch of the others didn't win in their third season either. Edited March 28, 2019 by Thurman#1
vincec Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Yeah, um, no. Go back and look again. Gruden had five wins in his third year and a bunch of the others didn't win in their third season either. Shottenheimer, Shanahan, Vermeil, Holmgren, Payton, Wyche, Jim Fassell, Wayne Fontes all won their third year. Gruden didn't turn Tampa around. He wont the SB year 1 with Dungy's team and then left with them in the toilet. He is your example for success? Or is it Jason Garrett? Your examples make my point for me. I'm not sure what you're talking about. 1
Thurman#1 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: The Pegulas have the Management Yips. They've made so many bad decisions, and have achieved so little success, that they've effectively "froze." Terry admitted as much when he said "Something needs to change, but we don't know what." They don't know what to do, and seem blind or stubborn about bringing in a czar for either organization who would direct them about what to do. Both organizations have been rife with dysfunction during their tenure, and the "horizontal" (more diagonal) reporting structures they've created have led to chaos and a lack of clarity of roles. And they continue to learn on the job - and allow rookie GMs and rookie coaches to do the same, all at the fans' expense. They are really nice people. They may be the worst owners in professional sports. That's a really poor post, and real misuse of a quotation. Not knowing exactly what has to change can be anything from admitting you're frozen and clueless on one side of the spectrum to an acknowledgement that in the real world that's how making difficult decisions in extremely complicated situations generally works on the other side of the spectrum. Or anywhere in between. More, he was referring specifically to the Sabres. That part of your logic was obviously just wrong. As for worst owners, they're not even the worst owners in the NFL, a league with Mark Davis, Daniel Snyder, the Fords ... there are far worse and it's too early in their career to put them very far down the list. If this regime doesn't work out, that would drop them. They still have a lot to prove. But this FO looks pretty solid so far. Edited March 28, 2019 by Thurman#1
May Day 10 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) The sabres have been spectacularly bad throughout housley's tenure, and right now they are finishing with one of the worst stretches in franchise history (the worst quarter season stretch in my 40 years for sure). Not 1 player has seemed to progress or over-perform in these 2 seasons. Its so bad, the sabres will look foolish if they attempt to justify another season with him. They will also hemorrhage season ticket holders unless they luck out with another lottery win again. Inexperienced and clearly in way over his head. Nhl is also different than the nfl. Changing coaches doesnt mean a team overhaul whatsoever. These guys are plug and play Mcdermott on the other hand is competent and well put together. A great spokesperson for the team (beane too). He has gotten water out of a stone at times, especially with the defense, and playoffs aside, 9-7 was a miracle in 2017. Last year the team also came around and fought after a real bad start. He seems like he has discipline, yet many players seem to want to fight for him. A rare combo At a minimum, mcdermott has 2 more seasons Edited March 28, 2019 by May Day 10
SoTier Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: And the Sabres have simply quit with 6 games left. It's been a disaster since Pegula Day 1 for that sad franchise. True. 11 hours ago, Nihilarian said: Pro sports is a performance based business and if a player can't do his job he is replaced. Why shouldn't the HC, GM or assistant coach get the same? After last years draft/ FA Beane isn't going anywhere! McD OTOH needs to have a winning season to at least 8-8, 9-7 or better. Maybe, maybe not. If Allen busts badly as Paxton Lynch did, that's a problem for both McDermott and Beane. If Allen only turns out to be mediocre, Beane will probably outlast McDermott for a while. I think everything for both depends upon Allen. 11 hours ago, WhoTom said: Big difference between Rex and McD: the players and owners have bought into McD's plan. Rex was clueless and it was obvious by the end of his second year that he'd lost the team. Why do the players (and the owners) believe in McD and not Rex? Rex took a top-five defense and decimated it. McD took roughly the same players and rode that defense to the playoffs, in spite of having an anemic offense with a gun-shy QB. Then he (and Beane) dumped the dead weight, cleared cap space, drafted what looks to be a competent QB, bolstered the o-line (on paper, at least), improved the WR corps, and still have ten draft picks to spend. Barring a total meltdown, they get at least two more years, and probably three. Since McDermott now has "his" players, he has no excuses. If the Bills don't win more than 6 games in 2019, he'll be on the hot seat in 2020. 8 hours ago, Nihilarian said: While I agree that McD has/had a lot of power as he brought in his own GM and the Bills did make the playoffs in his first season as HC. I look at Rex Ryan and see his first year the Bills went 8-8 and then went backward to 7-8 before he was fired. Now granted Ryan screwed himself by attempting to run his archaic lame 3-4 scheme that was dependent on elite linebackers that he didn't have...Meanwhile, the Bills defense was better suited for a 4-3 with that superb defensive line. Then instead of rushing the passer with that D line he would rather they hold their blocks while at times dropping into pass coverage A blind man could see Rex Ryan was a big mouth fool. Still, the 2018 Bills season was marred with blowouts (5)and a run game that stalled more often than not. (His defense crapped the bed in a bunch of games last year). While taking big steps backward to a 6-10 season. Keeping run game coordinator/O line coach Juan Castillo for 2018 wasn't nearly as wrong as giving Nathan Peterman the starting job with all the starting season reps ...much less keeping him as a backup. While the defense was #2 yards allowed those blowouts held the Bills to 18th in points allowed. I honestly don't think McD will survive another 6-10 season and quite a lot of it will depend on how the season transpires. McD has had two seasons to show he knows how to build a solid team and took a Chan Gailey step backward last year. I'd have a different feeling about the situation had McD been able to beat the NE Patriots at least once and right now he is 0-4. In my view what good is he if he can't beat the Patriots at least once in six attempts. It's my take that the Pegula's want to win in the NFL more than most realize. I agree with this post pretty much until your last sentence. I don't think that Pegula is particularly committed to winning in either the NFL or the NHL. That he not only kept Russ Brandon but promoted him to be head of both the football and hockey organizations says that profit counts for more than winning. Brandon was promoted despite heading up a football organization that went 82-110 with only 2 winning seasons out of 12, although the Bills were a very profitable business for the Wilson family during that time. Furthermore, Brandon was fired because of issues unrelated to the performance of either the Bills or the Sabres. Edited March 28, 2019 by SoTier
Mr. WEO Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoTier said: True. Maybe, maybe not. If Allen busts badly as Paxton Lynch did, that's a problem for both McDermott and Beane. If Allen only turns out to be mediocre, Beane will probably outlast McDermott for a while. I think everything for both depends upon Allen. Since McDermott now has "his" players, he has no excuses. If the Bills don't win more than 6 games in 2019, he'll be on the hot seat in 2020. I agree with this post pretty much until your last sentence. I don't think that Pegula is particularly committed to winning in either the NFL or the NHL. That he not only kept Russ Brandon but promoted him to be head of both the football and hockey organizations says that profit counts for more than winning. Brandon was promoted despite heading up a football organization that went 82-110 with only 2 winning seasons out of 12, although the Bills were a very profitable business for the Wilson family during that time. Furthermore, Brandon was fired because of issues unrelated to the performance of either the Bills or the Sabres. Excellent point. No doubt Kimterry would still be writing Russ' annual bonus checks if he didn't get creepy with the staff.
Thurman#1 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, vincec said: Shottenheimer, Shanahan, Vermeil, Holmgren, Payton, Wyche, Jim Fassell, Wayne Fontes all won their third year. Gruden didn't turn Tampa around. He wont the SB year 1 with Dungy's team and then left with them in the toilet. He is your example for success? Or is it Jason Garrett? Your examples make my point for me. I'm not sure what you're talking about. You've got me chuckling here. Talk about a moving target, man. "I’m trying to think of a coach in the last 30 years who lost more games than the previous season for two seasons in a row and still turned the franchise into a winner. I can’t." Isn't that what you said, just above? Asking for ONE example? So I provide like twelve and out come the justifications and the mistakes. In Fontes's third year, he was 6-10. Ownership didn't fire him. He made Detroit relevant for pretty much the only time in the last 40 years. In Fassel's third year he was 7-9. Ownership didn't fire him. In Garrett's second, third and fourth year he didn't have a winning record, getting eight wins each time. And yeah, Jason Garrett's Cowboys have been a success. In the last five years he's had a 12-win season, a 13-win season and a 10-win season, and they look like they're set up to be good for a while. So yes, he "turned the franchise into a winner," which is what you asked for. They're winners. And again, I didn't look for every example. I went like halfway down the list of coaches and quit because I had a ton of examples. Edited March 28, 2019 by Thurman#1
nucci Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 If they win, they get to stay..if they don't.... finishing 8-8 or 9-7 and missing the playoffs should not be good enough....they signed a number of veterans to compete this year 1
oldmanfan Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, nucci said: If they win, they get to stay..if they don't.... finishing 8-8 or 9-7 and missing the playoffs should not be good enough....they signed a number of veterans to compete this year If they fire a regime that has a 9-7 record then the team and its fans don't deserve a winner. Constantly trying to reinvent the wheel gets you nowhere.
Matt_In_NH Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 So far I am impressed with what McDermott has done with what he has had. Other than a nice start to the season, can't remotely say the same for Housely. I wanted him to succeed but I think he is toast. McDermott has at least two more years.
Bangarang Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said: And do it all over again every three years. I see them getting the five years. I also am seeing a team being built from the ground up and spending wisely. Now we have 10 draft picks and still money to sustainably spend each year without going upside down (see Whaley). You can’t quick fix a program. If over the five years, they don’t consistently improve, yes I agree Bagarang. I don’t think you should just blindly give every regime 5 years. We see teams get turned around much quicker than that all the time. This is a big year for McD and BB. They are out of the dead cap problem they created and we’re able to add a bunch of free agents. Their highly picked QB should make a big leap this year as well. However, if Allen’s game doesn’t improve considerably and we have another disappointing season then seats should definitely be hot.
oldmanfan Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said: The Pegulas have the Management Yips. They've made so many bad decisions, and have achieved so little success, that they've effectively "froze." Terry admitted as much when he said "Something needs to change, but we don't know what." They don't know what to do, and seem blind or stubborn about bringing in a czar for either organization who would direct them about what to do. Both organizations have been rife with dysfunction during their tenure, and the "horizontal" (more diagonal) reporting structures they've created have led to chaos and a lack of clarity of roles. And they continue to learn on the job - and allow rookie GMs and rookie coaches to do the same, all at the fans' expense. They are really nice people. They may be the worst owners in professional sports. Let's bring in a czar. Remember when everyone clamored for them to bring in Coughlin as the czar? That worked out great for the Jags. Or you could let the young GMs, both of whom trained in successful organizations, actually do their jobs. Edited March 28, 2019 by oldmanfan 2
Buffalo_Stampede Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 It's a results based business. Not much to really discuss.
Marv's Neighbor Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Doc Brown said: They've already fired Bylsma/Murray and Ryan/Whaley due to poor performance. If you don't win games you're out. They better fire Housley. Totally agree but they keep saying he's safe??
Ronin Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 14 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said: Listening to Kim and Terry at the owners meetings was interesting. Despite it being an NFL owners meeting, the majority of questions were Buffalo Sabres related. Specifically wondering how Terry and Kim will respond to a team with promise that currently is in a free fall. Many fans are calling for the head of Phil Housley and given how the team has played over the past few months, it tough to suggest otherwise. A topic that has been discussed in here has been the overall security of Beane and McDermott and the amount of pressure (or lack thereof) they are under to win. It made me wonder how they’ll respond if the Bills take another step back record wise. Let’s say they go 5-11 or 4-12. Does it mean that McDermott and/or Beane will be axed it that they’ll be under the gun in 2020? I’ve always thought that the both Beane and McDermott will be given the full 5 years of their contract. I also think that the Pegulas are image conscious and don’t want to be the team which constantly fires coaches. I think when they fired Rex and brought it McDermott they gave him their word that they would have patience and give him time to build his vision. Based on how Terry and Kim have a the Housley situation, I believe this even more now. I noticed they used the word “patience” on more than 1 occasion and while Terry didn’t use the word “continuity” he basically alluded it by referencing New England. So any fans that want say things like “Fire McDermott” or “Beane should be Fired.” Will likely have to wait until 2021. I think these cats are getting all 5 years regardless, under the guise of “patience” and “continuity.” Yes even if they go 6-10 and 5-11, they still will get 2021. Only way they leave before this is if there is some kind of falling out or a disasterous Hugh Jackson-like Run. Make no mistake, McBeane's careers in Buffalo are directly tied to Allen. If Allen succeeds to the extent that he becomes a franchise QB, they'll be around for their five years and perhaps longer. IMO winning won't even be necessary as 7-9 to 9-7 will be fine as long as Allen turns into that QB. If he doesn't however, apart from this team being far from winning anything, they won't last long. The only question is how long do the Pegulas give to see if Allen works out, which is rhetorical at this point. If as many here suggest, he mimics Trubisky in his second season and posts an average season as a passer, they'll be around for all five. If however Allen continues to throw more INTs than TDs, or even close, and continues to struggle in the Red Zone and short-medium to the extent that it's obvious that Allen's become a huge project, I doubt that they see year 5 and the pressure will be coming from varying sources ranging from media to fans to find a new tandem. You cannot in essence exchange four day 1 & 2 picks, move up to get a QB while ignoring a host of other team issues, have that QB not turn into a franchise QB, and expect to keep your job. Especially since they bet-the-farm with "their guy" (Allen) that it would render their judgement, against the backdrop of relatively lackluster results in rebuilding the team otherwise, highly questionable at best. 1
Peevo Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 They're in a tough spot. Firing Housley will receive harsh criticism. "The Sabres are still paying Dan Bylsma not to coach and now they're doing the same for Housley" or something to that effect. Keeping Housley will receive harsh criticism. "How can a team fail to win back to back games since December retain its coach and be taken seriously?" They're in a lose-lose hopelessness spiral. All I want from these people is honesty, which fans rarely receive. Just what the hell ACTUALLY happened when Pat Lafontaine left in mystery following the 2014 trade deadline? Their organizational plan was flawed from the start. Losing is hard enough on the fans. Having no real understanding of who is making what decisions is worse. For instance, Tim Murray was a loose cannon and poorly represented the team, or did he? Paul Hamilton of WGR told the "I heard him chew up an NHL official in ear shot of the press box for all of us to hear" story at least 75 times after he was fired. Convenient that that story was never reported to fans WHILE HE WAS EMPLOYED BY THE TEAM. If I'm a paying customer, wouldnt I want to know the GM of my overpriced, ***** team is chewing officials out in public? Rex Ryan was a hot head who did embarrassing crap like the Clemson helmet thing, despite having a decent team that had a positive point differential. So the team overcorrects and hires straight laced Sean McDermott, a family, faith, football Lifetime movie 2 dimensional character trope. The whole thing is a toxic mess. They have no answers. It's completely hopeless. Until Brady retires there really is no hope here. 1
Seasons1992 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 Mr. Pegula has tried to fix the Sabres with former Sabres. That's his passion. He has now cleaned out the Ralph era, and let others handle that business. No Marv as GM, no bringing back former greats to "coach," etc. I'm Ok with it for now.......we're WAY more relevant with the Bills being good vs. the Sabres.
Recommended Posts