Josh Allen vs Carson Wentz - Rookie Season

[DieHardBillsFan]

On 3/27/2019 at 12:26 PM, ProcessAccepted said:

 

He will be with an improved set of receivers

 

 

 

This needed its own page.. Pathetic. So he had similar receivers to the ones in Wyoming it seems.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

There's Vick, even with your qualifications.  Newton can run and has a big arm.  Elway is up on my list, but he didn't run Allen or the other two.  Randall Cunningham and Daunte Culpepper (it's interesting that they played for the same team within a few year of each other) were physically dominant runners and throwers.  In his younger days Peyton was a big thrower but never a running threat.  Maybe Steve Young has to be on the list.   Steve McNair.  Allen compares favorably with just about all of them.   

 

He does indeed. In fact, a strong argument can be made that he's better than all of them as a runner. A little while back, I looked at the greatest six game rushing streaks by QB's. I think I only looked at Vick, RGIII and Newton assuming those three guys would be the obvious front runners. Allen' s six game span to end the season blew away any six game streak RGIII and Cam had. Meanwhile, VIck had only one six game streak that could have an argument for or against it being as good or better than Allen's. I think Vick had more yards but slightly lower ypc and much fewer TD's.

 

But it would be unfair to anoint him that just yet with such a small sample size.

 

And the fun thing about Allen, he's a guy that still wants to play the game like Brett Favre. He wants to be a gunslinger. I wouldn't say the same thing about Vick, RGIII and Cam. Combine the gunslinger mentality with his crazy athleticism and you potentially have a very special QB. One we haven't seen before which will make it hard to judge him by traditional statistic's. You can't just say, well his stats need to improve to XYZ for him to be good.

[oldmanfan]

18 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

To the point of Cam Newton. He absolutely is a franchise QB. You can be inconsistent and fail to live up to your full expectations and still be a franchise QB. Perhaps that is the category that Cam fits into. I understand there is not a rock solid definition of a franchise QB, but I have a hard time seeing how Cam would not fit most or nearly all definitions of one. The fact that he has been the starting QB for the same team for 8 consecutive seasons is in itself the most simplistic measure that tells us he is a franchise QB. Regardless of how he has played. Throw in an MVP season, playoff success, regular season success. The guy is without a doubt a franchise QB. Inconsistent? Yes. Playoffs in three out of his eight seasons tells us that. Not ideal, but also not terrible considering the Super Bowl run and the fact that he's played in a division with two other super bowl contending teams in Atlanta and New Orleans over those eight seasons. This is not a case of the Colts under Manning beating up on poor AFC South teams or the Patriots beating up on poor AFC East teams over the last 18 years.

 

We can debate if Cam's run as a franchise QB is coming to an end. That is a fair discussion. Flacco was a franchise guy at one point too and is obviously not anymore. Some QB's stay at that level longer than other. Some ridiculously long like Brady. But based on his last season, I certainly would not right Cam off yet. We can also debate if his use as a runner will lead to a shorter peak as a franchise QB. Probably, not much of a debate. It likely will. And Allen may be on the same trajectory. We did see Newton put up some of his best passing numbers of his career in his eighth season though so perhaps his game is evolving in a good way as he ages. The same could happen for Allen down the road.

 

I am also not a fan of Cam's attitude, leadership, and perhaps work ethic and film study. But, IMO, Allen does not share those traits with Newton. Because Allen on the surface appears to be a better leader and have a better work ethic I think he has a chance to be even better than Newton. They certainly share similar physical traits and athletic ability.

 

 

I am willing to bet that if you ask ten people the definition of franchise quarterback you will get, at minimum, twenty different answers.

[mannc]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Fair enough.

 

Since I wrote what I did, I've been asking myself who are the most physically gifted QBs in the history of the league.   I'm concluding that Allen is WAY up on the list.   

 

There's Vick, even with your qualifications.  Newton can run and has a big arm.  Elway is up on my list, but he didn't run Allen or the other two.  Randall Cunningham and Daunte Culpepper (it's interesting that they played for the same team within a few year of each other) were physically dominant runners and throwers.  In his younger days Peyton was a big thrower but never a running threat.  Maybe Steve Young has to be on the list.   Steve McNair.  Allen compares favorably with just about all of them.   

 

The open question about Allen is how good can he get as a field general.    

I agree.  I think maybe we need to stop comparing Josh Allen to other QBs and saying he can succeed only if he masters the short-medium passing game, like Brady, Brees, etc.  Allen has enormous physical talent, is smart, and has a great work ethic.  With more experience, he's going to get better at being an NFL quarterback, but not necessarily by becoming more like other successful QBs.  I believe his talent is unique and that he's going to win games his own way...maybe that means he's going to win football games by throwing the ball deep down the field and busting off big runs 4 or 5 times per game, without ever becoming great at throwing touch passes to running backs and slot receivers.  I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but we need to be open to the idea that Allen can become a franchise QB without becoming like other franchise QBs or without having a completion percentage of over 60 percent.            

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I am willing to bet that if you ask ten people the definition of franchise quarterback you will get, at minimum, twenty different answers.

 

I agree. I'm confident Newton would fit the majority of those definitions too.

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

To the point of Cam Newton. He absolutely is a franchise QB. You can be inconsistent and fail to live up to your full expectations and still be a franchise QB. Perhaps that is the category that Cam fits into. I understand there is not a rock solid definition of a franchise QB, but I have a hard time seeing how Cam would not fit most or nearly all definitions of one. The fact that he has been the starting QB for the same team for 8 consecutive seasons is in itself the most simplistic measure that tells us he is a franchise QB. Regardless of how he has played. Throw in an MVP season, playoff success, regular season success. The guy is without a doubt a franchise QB. Inconsistent? Yes. Playoffs in three out of his eight seasons tells us that. Not ideal, but also not terrible considering the Super Bowl run and the fact that he's played in a division with two other super bowl contending teams in Atlanta and New Orleans over those eight seasons. This is not a case of the Colts under Manning beating up on poor AFC South teams or the Patriots beating up on poor AFC East teams over the last 18 years.

 

We can debate if Cam's run as a franchise QB is coming to an end. That is a fair discussion. Flacco was a franchise guy at one point too and is obviously not anymore. Some QB's stay at that level longer than other. Some ridiculously long like Brady. But based on his last season, I certainly would not right Cam off yet. We can also debate if his use as a runner will lead to a shorter peak as a franchise QB. Probably, not much of a debate. It likely will. And Allen may be on the same trajectory. We did see Newton put up some of his best passing numbers of his career in his eighth season though so perhaps his game is evolving in a good way as he ages. The same could happen for Allen down the road.

 

I am also not a fan of Cam's attitude, leadership, and perhaps work ethic and film study. But, IMO, Allen does not share those traits with Newton. Because Allen on the surface appears to be a better leader and have a better work ethic I think he has a chance to be even better than Newton. They certainly share similar physical traits and athletic ability.

 

 

Sammy - You're right.  Cam absolutely is a franchise QB.  He just isn't a franchise QB I want.   I don't think a team can win consistently with him.  Mostly because of his attitude.   

 

But he IS a franchise QB just, as you say, Flacco is.  Thanks for clarifying it. 

6 minutes ago, mannc said:

I agree.  I think maybe we need to stop comparing Josh Allen to other QBs and saying he can succeed only if he masters the short-medium passing game, like Brady, Brees, etc.  Allen has enormous physical talent, is smart, and has a great work ethic.  With more experience, he's going to get better at being an NFL quarterback, but not necessarily by becoming more like other successful QBs.  I believe his talent is unique and that he's going to win games his own way...maybe that means he's going to win football games by throwing the ball deep down the field and busting off big runs 4 or 5 times per game, without ever becoming great at throwing touch passes to running backs and slot receivers.  I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but we need to be open to the idea that Allen can become a franchise QB without becoming like other franchise QBs or without having a completion percentage of over 60 percent.            

And I really like this.  I mean, there's some value in making comparisons, but at the end of the day, the great ones are uniquely different from the others.   Brady, Brees, Peyton - three very different guys.   Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, same thing.  

 

If Allen makes the mark we all hope he will, people won't be comparing him to the other greats.   People will be comparing wannabees to Allen.  

[Logic]

2 hours ago, BringBackFlutie said:

Eh... I think he's always gonna have a bit of a gunslinger mentality- perhaps closer to Favre's than most, but I think Allen is smarter and can become more refined.  I don't think he'll throw as many picks as Favre, and I think he'll use his mobility a lot to find more open guys and make less questionable throws.  I'd say, from a playing style (not necessarily success) standpoint, Allen will be like Aaron Rodgers/Steve Young, in mobility and making opportunities, with a high tendency towards Favre, in aggression.  Basically, I think calling him a Favre or a Brady/Brees, is too one dimensional.  I think he'll have a very diverse style of play, due to his diverse skill set and intelligence. And the aforementioned comparisons are only what we can see about him today.  I don't think we've seen half of what he can/will be.  I think he's still got a LOT of molding to do.  He's very young and inexperienced.  A coach can, essentially, take his skill set and make him whatever they want.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I'm overly positive about him.

Fair enough. I think you're probably right.

It should be noted, though, for full transparency: You're a Favre hater. I don't know why. He must have peed in your Flutie Flakes or something.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Fair enough. I think you're probably right.

It should be noted, though, for full transparency: You're a Favre hater. I don't know why. He must have peed in your Flutie Flakes or something.

Well, I always thought Favre played a bit out of control.  He was like the kid in Pee Wee football who was just better than everyone else, so the coach just gave him the ball and told him to make it happen.   When he got to high school, the coach was tearing his hair out over the kid, because the kid just did whatever he wanted.  Favre had a bit of that. 

 

I think Allen is much more coachable.  

 

I also think it's funny that we've all let our imaginations run away with us.  Allen is going into his second season, playing on a team that's made the playoffs once in 20 years, with a first-time head coach and a first-time gm.  He has to play at least a couple more regular season games before he makes the Hall of Fame.  

[Logic]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I also think it's funny that we've all let our imaginations run away with us.  Allen is going into his second season, playing on a team that's made the playoffs once in 20 years, with a first-time head coach and a first-time gm.  He has to play at least a couple more regular season games before he makes the Hall of Fame.  

I totally agree with this point.

HOWEVER...from a physical talent standpoint, an aggressiveness standpoint, and a "potential to be great" standpoint, the Elway, Favre, Newton comparisons are not entirely off base. I think it goes without saying (or at least it should) that he has a lot of work to do to be mentioned honestly in the same breath as those guys. No one, however, should deny that he has the physical tools to achieve that level of greatness. He is quite literally one of 10 or 12 most talented QBs -- strictly from a physical and athletic standpoint --  to ever lace up his cleats in the NFL.

[JESSEFEFFER]

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I always thought Favre played a bit out of control.  He was like the kid in Pee Wee football who was just better than everyone else, so the coach just gave him the ball and told him to make it happen.   When he got to high school, the coach was tearing his hair out over the kid, because the kid just did whatever he wanted.  Favre had a bit of that. 

 

I think Allen is much more coachable.  

 

I also think it's funny that we've all let our imaginations run away with us.  Allen is going into his second season, playing on a team that's made the playoffs once in 20 years, with a first-time head coach and a first-time gm.  He has to play at least a couple more regular season games before he makes the Hall of Fame.  

Not without precedent though.  Many recent examples of teams which had a string of poor records that become good real fast with a young QB on a rookie deal.  Seahawks, Rams and Eagles come to mind.  This can happen fast.  Bears are close.  Browns are looking promising.  Beane is trying to make it happen here.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Not without precedent though.  Many recent examples of teams which had a string of poor records that become good real fast with a young QB on a rookie deal.  Seahawks, Rams and Eagles come to mind.  This can happen fast.  Bears are close.  Browns are looking promising.  Beane is trying to make it happen here.

I agree completely. 

 

I'm ready to admit it.  I've been optimistic for years, but never like this.  I think this team could get really good, really fast.  

[BringBackFlutie]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Fair enough. I think you're probably right.

It should be noted, though, for full transparency: You're a Favre hater. I don't know why. He must have peed in your Flutie Flakes or something.

 

...I was wondering if you ever noticed.

 

And no.  He didn't.  All of my Flutie Flakes were stolen before I could eat them.  I just really dislike interceptions.

[Logic]

1 minute ago, BringBackFlutie said:

 

...I was wondering if you ever noticed.

 

And no.  He didn't.  All of my Flutie Flakes were stolen before I could eat them.  I just really dislike interceptions.

And yet...if Ryan Fitzpatrick had asked you to marry him, you would've said yes. Curious.

[BringBackFlutie]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

And yet...if Ryan Fitzpatrick had asked you to marry him, you would've said yes. Curious.

Well.  I also got super-giddy when you told me Ryan Fitzpatrick had a Favre-like gunslinger mentality.  Trent Edwards will do that to you.

 

And I'd STILL say yes.  Have you seen that little bubble butt of his?  

[Logic]

@BringBackFlutie    I mean...

Edited March 28, 2019 by Logic

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, Logic said:

@BringBackFlutie    I mean...

Love that guy.  What a hoot!

[Alphadawg7]

Im just gonna say it...stop with the Cam Newton comparisons to Allen, they are not the same QB.  I do understand the comparison, but Allen is not in the mold of Cam.  Is there some similarities, sure, but the reality is the type of game they play is not the same nor is Allens projection.  

 

I mean it makes sense on the surface...our staffs connection to Carolina.  Both big guys.  Both can run.  Both big arms.  Both have had questions about accuracy.  

 

BUT...style is way different and the game Josh is trying to play is not the same game Cam plays.  I wont call it a lazy comparison, because I can see why some gravitate to that given the above reasons.  But the comparison is shallow and is more about their physical traits along with their percieved strengths and weaknesses.  But Allens style is different, and what he projects to be if he develops into his potential is not only different than Cam, but better.  

 

Allen compares much more to Big Ben, John Elway, Steve Young...in terms of style.  Long way to go before he is on their level of course, but strictly talking the type of QB he is aspiring and projecting to be.  Guys with big arms who looked to push the ball downfield first but could hurt you bad with their legs when forced to or the opportunity arose.  Newton will never be this type of passer, but thats the path Allen is on.  Only time will tell if he gets there, but I think he will.  

[ProcessYaDigg]

22 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think Wentz is a tad overrated. I disagree on Foles though. I think he is overrated too. People forget he started the first couple of games last season and was awful. Foles is going to fall hard in Jax. 

i agree that Foles is slightly overrated.  His play in Jax will be far different then his play in Philly.  There was a different type of energy that he brought in Philly that will not transfer in Jax.  In Philly, he really didn't have anything to lose since he wasn't the number 1 guy. 

[LSHMEAB]

19 minutes ago, Circlethewagon8404 said:

i agree that Foles is slightly overrated.  His play in Jax will be far different then his play in Philly.  There was a different type of energy that he brought in Philly that will not transfer in Jax.  In Philly, he really didn't have anything to lose since he wasn't the number 1 guy. 

I think Jacksonville now has a "trash" QB. Doug Pederson is the star of that Eagles offense. 

[oldmanfan]

I don't know if Allen will ultimately be a great QB.  But it does seem like he will put every ounce of work posssible into trying to reach that goal.  And that's a good thing.