Mr. WEO Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 1:46 PM, Kirby Jackson said: My thoughts on this are pretty simple. Wherever it goes next is going to be a “business decision” not a fan experience decision. What is best for the government and best for the Pegulas are not necessarily the same. It will almost certainly be a public/private deal. The expression “split the difference” is a little ironic IMO. That’s how I see this thing playing out. The Pegulas want to maximize revenue and the government wants to minimize cost. My guess is 65,000 seats, downtown (somewhere), with a price tag in the $1B range. It will be split almost evenly between the state and the Bills. Expand Good luck with that. The political climate is its worst ever for convincing the public to pay for something this owner could purchase in cash out of pocket. On 3/28/2019 at 3:16 AM, Inigo Montoya said: There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off. The biggest project in the history of Western New York. It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. Expand Say what? You mean the biggest project in western NY.....other than the "Buffalo Billion"....where all the crooks got all the money?
teef Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 11:34 AM, MacGyver said: What you say is true true to some extent. However I think the NFL would rather remove as many idiots from the stadium as possible so more fans can have a better experience as opposed to just the fans in the club seats. Expand oh sure, but there's always going to be an element of that. if there's a game where alcohol is served, someone is bound to get out of control, no matter how much you minimize it. that unfortunately applies to most public events. 2
Hammered a Lot Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 3:16 AM, Inigo Montoya said: All these posts show the pickle that the Pegulas are in. No matter what they decide to do, they will upset about a third of the people who go to the games. I think there are three things though that are clear. 1 ; The stadium will be built downtown, and unfortunately, it has nothing to do with common sense or the game day experience. There is simply more opportunities for public officials and union bosses and developers to get rich if the stadium is built down town. Politicians accepting "campaign contributions" to sign off on the project, union bosses getting their kickbacks, bureaucrats getting an envelope of cash to waive that zoning requirement or environmental impact statement. The businessmen who already own property down town will be working behind the scenes with the politicians they already own to make sure the stadium gets built there to increase the value of their assets. They will all be angling for a piece of the pie and more people will get a piece of the pie if the stadium is built downtown than if it is built out in the boonies of Erie County in Orchard Park. There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off. The biggest project in the history of Western New York. It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. The stadium is going downtown. Book it. 2; This thing will have a roof. Please refer to the point above. There is more money to be made on the stadium if it is a year round venue. The state and city and county are not going to chip in hundreds of millions of dollars for a stadium that gets used a dozen times a year. There isn't enough profit in it for them and everyone else with their hands in the till. The Pegulas will be forced to put a roof on the stadium to get the public funds. 3; The teams HQ and practice facilities will stay in Orchard Park. The Pegulas are quietly building some of the best facilities in the entire league in Orchard Park. No sense in tearing it all down after throwing tens of millions of dollars into it. More than that, it makes no sense to use expensive downtown real estate on weight rooms and training rooms, and cafeterias, and office space when they already have it on the cheap in Orchard Park. Expand Quietly? It's been announced that the Pegulas the last two years have spent $36 million on the faculties.
Hammered a Lot Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 1:58 AM, Lurker said: I'm sorry to hear that you had a problem. I lived downtown for five years and have worked in the CBD for 30-plus. Walked to and from work, to and from parking ramps, many times late at night. In all that time, I can only remember one mugging incident of someone I knew and just a handful of panhandlers. Crime is not an issue that has to be factored into a stadium location decision, IMO... Expand Crime is a real fact if your going to be going to a facility and have to go back to your car in a isolated area due to lack of centralized parking. My friend and I went to a Bills vs Indy game. Walking in Indy, turned the corner, bam saw a stickup. Gun included. Sorry you are safer in Orchard Park than in Buffalo. No shooting in OP this year, Buffalo???
Augie Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 2:28 AM, BUFFALOBART said: Please. Go do your 'better things', so we don't have to read your whining........ https://www.ibmadison.com/In-Business-Madison/August-2013/A-brief-history-of-Lambeau-Field-renovations/ Aug can dish it out, but he can't take it......... Expand Not all all, wrong again! That was the first time I had noticed the please don’t drink and derive, and as I said....I found it to be funny. You read too much into that, as it was exactly what it appeared to be. I even added the “really”, in case you weren’t sure. 1
PromoTheRobot Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 8:20 PM, BuffaloBill said: When is the last time you tailgated? Yes, there are sometimes drunken idiots doing drunken idiot things. However, my experience is that there are far more sober people having fun and enjoying the experience. I personally hate any idea that kills the tailgating scene. Expand And nothing will prevent people from doing that at a new downtown stadium if they want.
GG Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 11:17 PM, BUFFALOBART said: Money talks, etc........ I think the Pegulas will use the current facility for as long as it is practical. It is mostly outside forces driving the new stadium argument for the most part. I've stated that the old Bethlehem Steel site would be a great place for a new facility. The tailgate culture could be preserved, vs. a downtown stadium, which would change the fan experience in a negative way, IMO. 'Brownfield' tax credits could be used to rehab the Bethlehem plant, which I would think, could be had for a song, considering what might be bubbling beneath the surface of that site. Otherwise, build next door. The Pegula's bought property adjacent to 'Rich' Stadium with that purpose in mind........ Expand If you are considering Bethlehem steel site, then you may as well stay in OP. There would need to be a hell of a lot more road access improvements to Lackawanna than to a downtown site, along with far fewer side benefits. The choices are obvious - stay and upgrade NEF or build new near KeyBank 1
Lurker Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 12:10 PM, Hammered a Lot said: Crime is a real fact if your going to be going to a facility and have to go back to your car in a isolated area due to lack of centralized parking. My friend and I went to a Bills vs Indy game. Walking in Indy, turned the corner, bam saw a stickup. Gun included. Sorry you are safer in Orchard Park than in Buffalo. No shooting in OP this year, Buffalo??? Expand Not to be argumentative, but there have been no shootings in the CBD during sporting events or concerts either (right, Sabres fans). I get your suburban angst and personal experiences elsewhere. And to be truthful, OP is safer than the CITY of Buffalo. But downtown around Canalside or any of the major event venues? How about finding me some real (not imagined) data to back that up?
May Day 10 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 This is a big decision. The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc). Make good sight lines. Seats close to the field. Weaponize crowd noise. Good fan experience for watching football. Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals. Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 11:45 AM, Mr. WEO said: Good luck with that. The political climate is its worst ever for convincing the public to pay for something this owner could purchase in cash out of pocket. Say what? You mean the biggest project in western NY.....other than the "Buffalo Billion"....where all the crooks got all the money? Expand I hear you but everyone else is doing it. It is not going to be something that the Pegulas pick up alone. There are so many new revenue streamson the horizon (marijuana, sports betting, etc..) that they can find their portion.
Just Jack Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) On 3/28/2019 at 1:52 AM, Kirby Jackson said: Is it doubtful to think that an NFL team (even in Buffalo) could get $7.5M a year in naming rights? That’s not aggressive (at all). $100M through PSLs isn’t that crazy either. 10,000 seats at $5k, 20,000 seats at $2,500 and you are there. Obviously those are averages but that is not a stretch at all. That’s especially true if they are paid off over 5 years. Expand PSL's, at least for my club seats, are paid every year, not paid off after a certain number of years. Currently, for this season, I'm paying about $800/seat. And that's for one of the cheapest sections in the clubs. Edited March 28, 2019 by Just Jack 1
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 1:32 PM, May Day 10 said: This is a big decision. The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc). Make good sight lines. Seats close to the field. Weaponize crowd noise. Good fan experience for watching football. Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals. Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance Expand There is the crux of the decision. If given truth serum, both the NFL (and the Pegulas) would say that revenue generation is the entire conversation. Fan experience goes into that but is a secondary factor. They will have the amenities that people want, assuming that they pay for them. It is about $$$ On 3/28/2019 at 1:48 PM, Just Jack said: PSL's, at least for my club seats, are paid every year, not paid off after a certain number of years. Currently, for this season, I'm paying about $800/seat. Expand Yep and I think that it will be similar moving forward (just require a longer commitment). Additionally, they probably won’t let people out of those contracts as easily.
LabattBlue Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 1:24 PM, Lurker said: Not to be argumentative, but there have been no shootings in the CBD during sporting events or concerts either (right, Sabres fans). I get your suburban angst and personal experiences elsewhere. And to be truthful, OP is safer than the CITY of Buffalo. But downtown around Canalside or any of the major event venues? How about finding me some real (not imagined) data to back that up? Expand Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.
Augie Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 1:48 PM, Kirby Jackson said: There is the crux of the decision. If given truth serum, both the NFL (and the Pegulas) would say that revenue generation is the entire conversation. Fan experience goes into that but is a secondary factor. They will have the amenities that people want, assuming that they pay for them. It is about $$$ Expand Yep, but that’s the ONLY way they would say it publicly! ? Even emphasizing the fan’s game day experience is directly related to generating revenue, not just an altruistic endeavor. . 1
LabattBlue Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 1:32 PM, May Day 10 said: This is a big decision. The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc). Make good sight lines. Seats close to the field. Weaponize crowd noise. Good fan experience for watching football. Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals. Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance Expand The sight lines in the 100 level of the arena drive me crazy. I'd love to know from the design team, WTF they were thinking...especially coming from the Aud, where even the lower bowl was steep enough that you never had a problem seeing over the person in front of you.
Lurker Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) On 3/28/2019 at 1:53 PM, LabattBlue said: Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year. Expand Well, I didn't want to go there. But since you brought it up... On 3/28/2019 at 1:56 PM, LabattBlue said: I'd love to know from the design team, WTF they were thinking...especially coming from the Aud, where even the lower bowl was steep enough that you never had a problem seeing over the person in front of you. Expand That has more to do with ADA building requirements than anything. Can't design an "Aud" experience anymore. It's just not up to current codes... Edited March 28, 2019 by Lurker
Just Jack Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 1:53 PM, LabattBlue said: Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year. Expand Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? 1
Kirby Jackson Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 2:06 PM, Just Jack said: Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? Expand Yep, Hammer has the most at stake for sure. He should feel like he does. We all would feel the EXACT same way.
LabattBlue Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/28/2019 at 2:06 PM, Just Jack said: Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? Expand Fine...but don't just spin nonsense.
dollars 2 donuts Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Two things, quick, and I am sorry if they have already been talked about: 1. Given Pegulas comments are we just taking a domed stadium or retractable roof stadium off the board? I believe so, unless you can find a way to bring that under 600 or so million dollars, which a shot in the dark tells me is the sweet spot. 2. Wouldn't many of us anyways prefer or a more moderate stadium with more reasonable tickets than the cathedrals we are seeing built? Edited March 28, 2019 by dollars 2 donuts
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