Interesting Map of population growth

[RochesterRob]

6 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

All the robber-barons had their summer homes there, because of the natural air conditioning of the Great Lakes.  Like other said above, a/c changed everything.  

 

I found it fascinating how the south didn't suddenly spike after the cancellation of the 3/5 compromise.  And of how forward-looking the Louisiana Purchase really was.

 

 

  Quite a bit of the old money was founded in Buffalo versus wealthy being summertime migrants.  I remember it said during the late 1960's that the aggregate was estimated to be well above 10 billion dollars.  

 

  The South never took off because it was too far removed from the necessary raw materials commonly needed during the heat of the Industrial Revolution.  Iron, nickel, and coal all resided in the North.  Had hyrdoelectric power been a priority before the New Deal maybe the South would have been more active in manufacturing earlier.  But still the cost of transporting heavy raw materials remained and plastics were not a factor before WWII.  Certain crops such as wheat due to their nature would always perform better in a comparatively cooler climate such as the upper Midwest.

[Augie]

7 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I was introduced to a former Bills player for his financial planning. We were talking about Buffalo.  He said he did some research on Buffalo when he was traded there.  He said he likes to know about the places where he lived.  He said that Buffalo had the most millionaires per capita in the US in the late 1800's early 1900's.  I had no idea.  

 

I heard that at some point, and I sure hope it’s true because I shock people with that all the time. The map was surprising regarding how early quickly It bloomed. Shipping build a lot of those beautiful old buildings, I guess. 

 

We just returned from a trip to Asheville, NC where we went through Biltmore again. Amazing feat for the 1890’s, and even more so when you look at the map and realize how isolated it was at that point (if I’m guessing right about location without state lines to guide me). They built a new 3 mile rail line just to get stuff to the property for construction.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by Augie

[Misterbluesky]

12 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

All the robber-barons had their summer homes there, because of the natural air conditioning of the Great Lakes.  Like other said above, a/c changed everything.  

 

I found it fascinating how the south didn't suddenly spike after the cancellation of the 3/5 compromise.  And of how forward-looking the Louisiana Purchase really was.

 

 

The heavy pockets are still in wine country..Clintons,Robert Rich Jr,Jacobs family,Ted Turner family..etc.Even Wolf Blitzer hides down there.

[The Senator]

7 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

Amazing architecture from that era abounds, and then......

 

 

 

It’s sad that we’ve torn down so much more than we saved - The Larkin Building, old Buffalo library, old Erie County Savings Bank, the Fargo Mansion (founder of Wells Fargo and American Express), and so many others.

 

All those gorgeous gothic and tudor

mansions on Delaware Ave, torn down and replaced with ugly lo-rise fiberglass clad office buildings.

 

The preservation movement here really didn’t start til the mid ‘70s

.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

12 hours ago, Gray Beard said:

I would have to watch it multiple times to get all the nuances.  Upstate NY peaked around the time of the Civil War and then started to fade. 

 

what about all the manufacturering ?? We were great until they started leaving.

 

 

10 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I was introduced to a former Bills player for his financial planning. We were talking about Buffalo.  He said he did some research on Buffalo when he was traded there.  He said he likes to know about the places where he lived.  He said that Buffalo had the most millionaires per capita in the US in the late 1800's early 1900's.  I had no idea.  

 

i saw that somewhere a couple of years ago. Those were the days !

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

11 hours ago, Gray Beard said:

I was surprised that Buffalo peaked later than other spots across NY.  Utica, Syracuse, and Rochester were all filled in with dark colors before Buffalo.  I would have thought that since Buffalo was at the end of the waterway it would have filled in sooner.  

The Burned Over District vs. The Passed Over District:

 

 

http://elektratig.blogspot.com/2009/02/burned-over-district-vs-passed-over.html?m=1

 

"[T]he remote, agricultural New York communities that became bulwarks of Free Soil . . . barely resembled the middle-class, evangelical, and Whig locales of the famed Burned-Over District covering the western parts of the state. Many of them, in fact, were isolated and economically stagnant – more passed-over than burned-over.

. . . Each of [the Free Soil] counties was rugged, densely wooded, and among the last be settled in the state. Shallow, acidic soil made traditional staple agriculture difficult . . .. As the crow flies, some of these communities were quite close to the bustling Erie Canal, but the famed “artificial river” might as well have been a thousand miles away. In fact, its completion in 1825 actually made matters worse for farmers removed from the canal district."

 

[The Senator]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

what about all the manufacturering ?? We were great until they started leaving.

 

 

 

i saw that somewhere a couple of years ago. Those were the days !

 

 

 

The Erie Canal made Buffalo one of the largest fresh water ports in the country.

 

Take a River Tour, and just realize how we processed all the flour to feed the country.

 

The electrification of Buffalo, by Schoellkopf and Westinghouse, made us the 8th largest city, and one of the wealthiest.

 

Buffalo was truly at its peak at the turn of the 20th century, with the Pan Am expo.

.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, The Senator said:

 

The Erie Canal made Buffalo one of the largest fresh water ports in the country.

 

Take a River Tour, and just realize how we processed all the flour to feed the country.

 

The electrification of Buffalo, by Schoellkopf and Westinghouse, made us the 8th largest city, and one of the wealthiest.

 

Buffalo was truly at its peak at the turn of the 20th century, with the Pan Am expo.

.

Then McKinley got shot and they figured out how to transport that power.

 

Read my links above if you have time.  The canal might as well have been a 1000 miles away... It actually made matters worse for farmers not in canal district.

 

Mix in the absence of religion... People forget Mormonism was founded in that Burned-over District.

 

Natives hostile too.  Senecas, not too friendly like the ones back east. 

[The Senator]

17 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Then McKinley got shot and they figured out how to transport that power.

 

Read my links above if you have time.  The canal might as well have been a 1000 miles away... It actually made matters worse for farmers not in canal district.

 

Mix in the absence of religion... People forget Mormonism was founded in that Burned-over District.

 

Natives hostile too.  Senecas, not too friendly like the ones back east. 

 

Wo, wo, EII, a bit to heavy for me or my knowledge.

 

Didn’t McKinley visit here because we were already transmitting power from the Falls to Elmwood Ave?  He was murdered on what is now Chatham St, I believe  ( it might be Bedford Ave)

 

All I know is that Albright, Wilcox, and a few

others smuggled the proceeds from the Expo out of Buffalo in McKinley’s casket.

 

After McKinley was murdered, Buffalo had this 1963 Dallas like stigma for

many years

:

Edited March 25, 2019 by The Senator

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, The Senator said:

 

Wo, wo,EII, a bit to heavy for me or my knowledge.

 

All I know is that Albright, Wilcox, and a few

others smuggled the proceeds from the Expo out of Buffalo in McKinley’s casket.

 

After McKinley was murdered, Buffalo had this 1963 Dallas like stigma.

:

No not really.  BFLo faired well during both Wars.

 

BFLo was built for one thing: Break-in-Bulk bewteen Canal & Lakes.  The final nail for that economy came in 1959.

 

Powerwise... It was close to Falls.  That's what helped BFLo.  Black Rock was actually bigger for a time, then absorbed by BFLo.

 

Sad.  Think in terms that BFLo's positioning turned it into "Radiator Springs", streamlined transportation systems, improved infrastructure around it, technology to transfer power further away from the Falls (to NYC) were all nails in the original transportation economy and then manufacturing (cheap power) coffin.

 

Yet... Buffalo was the first all paved city in the country... And for good reason, with an average of 100" of snow a year, it had to be hell for land travel on unpaved roads.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

47 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

The Burned Over District vs. The Passed Over District:

 

 

http://elektratig.blogspot.com/2009/02/burned-over-district-vs-passed-over.html?m=1

 

"[T]he remote, agricultural New York communities that became bulwarks of Free Soil . . . barely resembled the middle-class, evangelical, and Whig locales of the famed Burned-Over District covering the western parts of the state. Many of them, in fact, were isolated and economically stagnant – more passed-over than burned-over.

. . . Each of [the Free Soil] counties was rugged, densely wooded, and among the last be settled in the state. Shallow, acidic soil made traditional staple agriculture difficult . . .. As the crow flies, some of these communities were quite close to the bustling Erie Canal, but the famed “artificial river” might as well have been a thousand miles away. In fact, its completion in 1825 actually made matters worse for farmers removed from the canal district."

 

 

still burnt over

 

 

48 minutes ago, The Senator said:

 

The Erie Canal made Buffalo one of the largest fresh water ports in the country.

 

Take a River Tour, and just realize how we processed all the flour to feed the country.

 

The electrification of Buffalo, by Schoellkopf and Westinghouse, made us the 8th largest city, and one of the wealthiest.

 

Buffalo was truly at its peak at the turn of the 20th century, with the Pan Am expo.

.

 

Ik, my point to the previous poster was we weren't at the peak during the civil war.

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

still burnt over

 

 

 

Ik, my point to the previous poster was we weren't at the peak during the civil war.

Yep... Before Tesla and the AC motor, current wars, etc... That's what took BFLo off.  Cheap, close power.  It was still break-in-bulk with water during the non-winter, rail... Which aided manufacturing.  Steel not till 19 zeros.

 

Buffalo did tell Henry Ford to pound salt first with the nascent automobile industry.  The rest is history in Detroit.  I guess we were banking on the buggy whip factories to win out! ?

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by ExiledInIllinois

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yep... Before Tesla and the AC motor, current wars, etc... That's what took BFLo off.  Cheap, close power.  It was still break-in-bulk with water during the non-winter, rail... Which adide manufacturing.  Steel not till 19 zeros.

 

Buffalo did tell Henry Ford to pounded salt first with the nascent automobile industry.  The rest is history in Detroit.  I guess we were banking on the buggy whip factories to win out! ?

 

 

Our "leaders" have always been short sighted.

 

Too bad the depression ruined Pierce Arrow.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Our "leaders" have always been short sighted.

 

Too bad the depression ruined Pierce Arrow.

 

 

Yep!

 

Seems luck too.  Look at all the local breweries.  Then the big national ones smashed them.  Now people are back to drinking the small stuff.

 

We are doomed... Not sure what it is. Timing, luck, geography.  Faired so well through Wars... Boom times.  If you want to read a good book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Last-Fine-Time-Verlyn-Klinkenborg/dp/0226443353

 

 

More definitive, more academic than narrative:

 

https://www.amazon.com/High-Hopes-Rise-Decline-Buffalo/dp/0873957350

 

 

 

Not being a HQ town hurt.  During down turns in economy, companies retreat towards their Headquarters.  Labor town @ disadvantage.

[Greybeard]

9 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

 Steel not till 19 zeros.

 

 

Buffalo did tell Henry Ford to pound salt first with the nascent automobile industry.  The rest is history in Detroit.  I guess we were banking on the buggy whip factories to win out! ?

 

"Steel not till 19 zeros."

Are you on a first name basis with the 20th century??

 

I sometimes think about the "what if the auto industry was in Buffalo."   The way Detroit turned out, Buffalo may have escaped a long term problem.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, Greybeard said:

"Steel not till 19 zeros."

Are you on a first name basis with the 20th century??

 

I sometimes think about the "what if the auto industry was in Buffalo."   The way Detroit turned out, Buffalo may have escaped a long term problem.

Yeah.  What if Buffalo was NOT so snooty to the auto industry? Detroit still had it's problems...

 

Now.  Detroit's micro-climate is way more tempered and way more conducive to driving around in the dead of winter.  Before anybody gets upset, remember, paved roads were a luxury.  I assume if vehicles didn't exist , neither did plows.  BUT Buffalo did invent the windshield wiper blade!

 

BTW... How does one write the 00s clearly?  LoL... Teens are teens, 20s, 30s, etc...  The zeros a bit confusing, especially with this tough crowd!

Edited March 25, 2019 by ExiledInIllinois

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

The Burned Over District vs. The Passed Over District:

 

 

http://elektratig.blogspot.com/2009/02/burned-over-district-vs-passed-over.html?m=1

 

"[T]he remote, agricultural New York communities that became bulwarks of Free Soil . . . barely resembled the middle-class, evangelical, and Whig locales of the famed Burned-Over District covering the western parts of the state. Many of them, in fact, were isolated and economically stagnant – more passed-over than burned-over.

. . . Each of [the Free Soil] counties was rugged, densely wooded, and among the last be settled in the state. Shallow, acidic soil made traditional staple agriculture difficult . . .. As the crow flies, some of these communities were quite close to the bustling Erie Canal, but the famed “artificial river” might as well have been a thousand miles away. In fact, its completion in 1825 actually made matters worse for farmers removed from the canal district."

 

 

The first heat maps?

[dhg]

https://explorebuffalo.org/gilded-age-tours/

 

I haven't done this tour,  but friends have. They really enjoyed it. Lots of interesting history.

[SoTier]

On 3/24/2019 at 10:09 AM, Gray Beard said:

I was surprised that Buffalo peaked later than other spots across NY.  Utica, Syracuse, and Rochester were all filled in with dark colors before Buffalo.  I would have thought that since Buffalo was at the end of the waterway it would have filled in sooner.  

 

Western New York -- the area west of the Genessee River -- wasn't opened to settlement until 1800.  New York State gained control of the area from the Senecas and confined them to reservations in Niagara County, in what is now South Buffalo and West Seneca, and in Cattaraugus County near the Cattaraugus Creek and the Allegany River after the Revolution and sold the area to a Dutch company, the Holland Land Company, in the 1790s.  Joseph Ellicott, head surveyor for the Holland Land Company, and his crew had to survey the entire area before it could be sold to individual buyers, which started around 1800-1801.  Virtually all land titles west of the Genessee River, with the possible of lands that were originally part of the Seneca reservations, begin with ownership by the Holland Land Company property and are based on Ellicott's survey.

 

In an era where water was the fastest and cheapest mode of transportation, the Mohawk River formed a water highway into the interior of the western part of the state to around Rome or Utica.  These areas were already frontier areas during the American Revolution when the Senecas were still using western New York as their tribal hunting perserve.  The Erie Canal took 8 years to build (1817-1825), and it was built from east to west (unlike the first transcontinental railroad which was built from the east and from the west simultaneously).   Population started increasing along the canal as soon as it was operational, so the areas further east that were along the earlier parts of the canal began growing from 1817 while Buffalo wouldn't benefit from it until 1825.   Building the series of locks to get up and down the escarpment at Lockport stalled the canal building for a couple of years.   The complete finishing of the canal was also somewhat delayed by the struggle between Buffalo and Black Rock over where the terminus of the canal would be.  Buffalo won the battle because the city fathers built the breakwall along the east shore of the Niagara River so that canal boats could avoid the currents of the Niagara River and make port in Buffalo in the Erie Basin.

 

Buffalo's population expansion only began in the late 1820s because it took the canal so long to get to Lake Erie.  The influx of people into Buffalo increased the local population from the first, but it wasn't until after the development of the croplands of the Midwest established Buffalo as the first major transshipment center in North America caused the city's population to soar.

 

On 3/24/2019 at 4:19 PM, RochesterRob said:

  In the early days of the canal most wheat went by barge when it was grown in towns such as Wheatfield (Buffalo) and Wheatland (Rochester, NY).  After the Civil War the largest volume of wheat was from the Midwest.  So it went by ship on the Great Lakes or by rail hugging the southern shores of Lake Michigan and Lake Erie onward to Buffalo.  Thanks to the rough terrain of the Appalachians commercial traffic went through Buffalo for the most economical passage.

 

In the 1830s, the lake plains south of Lake Ontario was known as "the breadbasket of the US' because of all the wheat grown there.  As new lands opened up in the Midwest, "the breadbasket" also moved west.  The growth of railroads in the 1840s and 1850s enabled that western grain to be shipped the Great Lakes and then to Buffalo.   In 1842, Joseph Dart and Robert Dunbar built the first steam powered grain elevator in Buffalo to unload grain from ships and store it, which gave Buffalo a decided advantage over any other possible rival.   Much of Buffalo's post-Civil War growth began during the Civil War with the rise of large scale manufacturing to supply war materiel for the Union armies.  Cleveland, Toledo, and Chicago as well as numerous interior cities in the Northeast and Great Lakes area all benefited from war industries.

 

20 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

The Burned Over District vs. The Passed Over District:

 

 

http://elektratig.blogspot.com/2009/02/burned-over-district-vs-passed-over.html?m=1

 

"[T]he remote, agricultural New York communities that became bulwarks of Free Soil . . . barely resembled the middle-class, evangelical, and Whig locales of the famed Burned-Over District covering the western parts of the state. Many of them, in fact, were isolated and economically stagnant – more passed-over than burned-over.

. . . Each of [the Free Soil] counties was rugged, densely wooded, and among the last be settled in the state. Shallow, acidic soil made traditional staple agriculture difficult . . .. As the crow flies, some of these communities were quite close to the bustling Erie Canal, but the famed “artificial river” might as well have been a thousand miles away. In fact, its completion in 1825 actually made matters worse for farmers removed from the canal district."

 

 

If you've ever visited what the author you quoted called "the passed over" district, you understand why it was passed over.   This area includes the cold, bleak area of the Tug Hill Plateau where the climate is unfavorable for farming and the western slopes of the Adirondaks which is heavily littered with protruding bedrock shelves as well as lots and lots of rocks which also made farming difficult.   Farmers would have by passed this area for the better lands to the south and west.

 

19 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yep!

 

Seems luck too.  Look at all the local breweries.  Then the big national ones smashed them.  Now people are back to drinking the small stuff.

 

We are doomed... Not sure what it is. Timing, luck, geography.  Faired so well through Wars... Boom times.  If you want to read a good book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Last-Fine-Time-Verlyn-Klinkenborg/dp/0226443353

 

 

More definitive, more academic than narrative:

 

https://www.amazon.com/High-Hopes-Rise-Decline-Buffalo/dp/0873957350

 

 

 

Not being a HQ town hurt.  During down turns in economy, companies retreat towards their Headquarters.  Labor town @ disadvantage.

 

Mark Goldman has written several books on Buffalo, all of them very good.   

 

There are a lot of reasons for Buffalo's economic decline, some of them inevitable because of external forces like the decline of the shipping/railroad industry and the steel industry but others due to the short-sightedness and conservative -- and sometimes reactionary -- mindset of Buffalo's business and political "leaders". 

 

[SirAndrew]

22 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

still burnt over

 

 

 

Ik, my point to the previous poster was we weren't at the peak during the civil war.

Yeah, absolutely true. Buffalo has significant ethnic populations that wouldn’t exist without mass immigration taking place after the civil war. The city’s population was 81,129 in 1860 and plateaued at 580,132 in 1950. This area had immense growth following the Civil War.