Tackle at #9, Dawkins to LG

[MrEpsYtown]

25 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I have to disagree.  While tackle is considered more difficult, a tackle-to-guard transition isn't always good for a player.  Look no further than Nsekhe; he's much better at LT than LG. Same went for Andrew Whitworth.  Cincinnati moved him to LG at two different points in his career (once in 2008 and once in 2013--both for stretches of games).  Now, they didn't do that because they thought he'd be better at LG, but rather because they had a shortage at the guard spots and felt that Whitworth at LG and a backup at LT was a better combination of 5 than the other alternatives.  But make no mistake, Whitworth is much better at tackle.  Guards need to be able to move down the line and work in close quarters, which can sometimes be more difficult than having space to establish a pass set and utilize arm length.

 

Maybe Dawkins will be a great LT.  But again, this isn't about Dawkins per se.  This is about getting the best combination of 5. If the team feels that they can field the best front-5 with Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT, then that's what they should do.

 

Good points all around. 

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

I think MrEpsYtown brings good insight. He's usually very perceptive about o-line in particular. Nonetheless, I agree with your argument.

 

For sure... @MrEpsYtown is a first-rate poster.

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My philosophy is slightly different. My view remains that LT and C are the cornerstone spots. So I am not moving guys from those spots until I am convinced I have better long term solutions. At the moment my belief is that the Bills' best two linemen both now and for the longer term are Dawkins and Morse. I want them at those two premium spots if possible. 

I don't necessarily disagree--the whole movement idea is predicated on the team feeling that they won't see a drop off at LT without Dawkins.  If they don't feel that way, then they shouldn't move him.

[CookieG]

On 3/20/2019 at 1:31 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

No need to move Dawkins.

 

Dawkins/Teller/Morse/Long/Nsekhe

That looks a lot better to you than to me. 

 

An LT that gave up 8 sacks, a LG that was average at best, and below average at worst, a RG who was cut one year into a 4 year contract and a 33 year old career back up.

 

You asked who the T that would be a fit at 9?

 

Andre Dillard, from Washington St. Excellent feet and the best pass blocking T in the draft.  (PS, Zeirlein has him going to us in his latest mock). Think of Ryan Clady or Joe Staley type LT.

 

This is really a good year not just "fix" a terrible OL, but actually make it....gasp....quality.

 

In the second, there is a possibility Chris Lindstrom from BC who showed his quality in the Senior Bowl. If not, C Elgton Jenkins from MIss. State is a really good choice to move to RG.  Strong and smart.

 

Dillard/Dawkins/Morse/Lindstrom or Jenkins/Nseke

 

With the exception of RT, that is a talented and young OL.  They could stay together for years.

 

Allen will be happier;

the speed WR's, who need time for their deep routes, would be happier.

Shady will be happier

The offense will be happier.

Watching the Bills get into the endzone more than once or twice a game will be happier.

 

Its wins all the way around. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I have to disagree.  While tackle is considered more difficult, a tackle-to-guard transition isn't always good for a player.  Look no further than Nsekhe; he's much better at LT than LG. Same went for Andrew Whitworth.  Cincinnati moved him to LG at two different points in his career (once in 2008 and once in 2013--both for stretches of games).  Now, they didn't do that because they thought he'd be better at LG, but rather because they had a shortage at the guard spots and felt that Whitworth at LG and a backup at LT was a better combination of 5 than the other alternatives.  But make no mistake, Whitworth is much better at tackle.  Guards need to be able to move down the line and work in close quarters, which can sometimes be more difficult than having space to establish a pass set and utilize arm length.

 

Maybe Dawkins will be a great LT.  But again, this isn't about Dawkins per se.  This is about getting the best combination of 5. If the team feels that they can field the best front-5 with Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT, then that's what they should do.

 

 

My take is also best combo of 5 and the reason is that the #1 job right now is to do whatever is best for Josh Allen's development.

 

If a blindside of Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT is the best for Allen and the offense in 2019........and based on what we know now I think it probably is......... then do that.

 

Moving Dawkins to LG doesn't preclude him ever being moved back to LT............see your Whitworth example..........and the Bills don't owe Dawkins another chance after he half-stepped at a gift wrapped, uncontested LT job last year.

 

On the individual level.........he might not like going to guard because of the potential lost contract value......... but if he plays great at guard he could become the highest paid guard in the NFL, in part because of his versatility.........I think the Bills are more likely to keep him if he reaches that level as a G than they are if he is simply a middle-of-pack LT.    

 

Those are the situations we see in the NFL where the original team decides he's not worth that open market money but many other teams are lined up to grossly overpay him because of their desperation at the position.

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[BillsFan692]

OL->LB/DL->WR/TE -- Got to take a shot on a young RB some place in this draft. but I would do that in the later rounds

[YoloinOhio]

I have to say that I really do not see them moving Dawkins or taking a RT at 9. Nothing they have done points to this. They have a big hole at RG and I think they will draft a guy for that spot. 9 seems high to me for any guard in this draft, though. 

[billsredneck1]

18 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I have to say that I really do not see them moving Dawkins or taking a RT at 9. Nothing they have done points to this. They have a big hole at RG and I think they will draft a guy for that spot. 9 seems high to me for any guard in this draft, though. 

as far as oline i would tend to think they may be hoping to get dillard ot and a c/gd type like dieter in the early mid rds.  i think for this year they may be content to go...

dawkins/feliciano/morse/long/ty and bring the young guys up for next year and beyond.  none of the signees will be here for more than a year maybe 2....except for morse.

 

however, there's no telling what they do in the draft.  if they go rt at 9, i'm all for kicking dion inside.  i just hope they establish a starting 5 early in camp and not be playing musical chairs all thru the pre season.

 

btw, fwiw i know the dl creativity thing is in another thread somewhere but, teller was the defensive player of the year in va. his senior year in h.s.

he was off to a possibly great dline career in college until injuries along their oline had the coach switch him over. i'd bet he'd jump at the chance to play the other side again.  i wouldn't be  be surprised....

Edited March 22, 2019 by billsredneck1

[Bill_with_it]

9 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

It doesn't matter how many insults you sling, it doesn't make your argument stronger, so shelf that garbage and make a real argument.

 

The fact of the matter, as I showed you, is that Nsekhe's grade at LT is actually higher than Dawkins'...not that PFF grades should mean anything beyond a sidebar discussion point. Believe it or not, play on the field is what matters, not what a bunch of statisticians calculate in an office without having ever played the game.

 

And you're still missing the point--best combination of 5.  You want to be legalistic about it, and that's a very, very, very poor approach.  If you had your choice, Eric Wood never would've moved from RG to C...because "known quantity" and all that jazz.

 

 

I have to disagree.  While tackle is considered more difficult, a tackle-to-guard transition isn't always good for a player.  Look no further than Nsekhe; he's much better at LT than LG. Same went for Andrew Whitworth.  Cincinnati moved him to LG at two different points in his career (once in 2008 and once in 2013--both for stretches of games).  Now, they didn't do that because they thought he'd be better at LG, but rather because they had a shortage at the guard spots and felt that Whitworth at LG and a backup at LT was a better combination of 5 than the other alternatives.  But make no mistake, Whitworth is much better at tackle.  Guards need to be able to move down the line and work in close quarters, which can sometimes be more difficult than having space to establish a pass set and utilize arm length.

 

Maybe Dawkins will be a great LT.  But again, this isn't about Dawkins per se.  This is about getting the best combination of 5. If the team feels that they can field the best front-5 with Dawkins at LG and Nsekhe at LT, then that's what they should do.

I slung no insults your argument is ridiculous your swapping a known better commodity as I have shown for unknown not so good commodity. PFF is used by multiple teams; multiple teams pay for their services. So while a cursory oh he’s new he’s better than Dawkins POV from the fan base such as yourself is the loudest voice in the room it doesn’t make it the smartest decision. If he wins it in training camp fine. I highly doubt the coach is going to move a better commodity away from a position that’s critical to the success and development from “hopefully our franchise qb”. That’s simply not the intelligent move.

Josh understands is “cozy” with the way Dawkins is going to block the different rushes, he after being with him for a year understands where he needs to be in the pocket so he’s not getting destroyed by the pass rusher that Dawkins is blocking.

 

I have said nothing about Eric wood. This argument is about moving arguably your most important position on the line with your current best lt to guard for an unknown lesser rated lt. 

 

That isnt an intelligent stance on any level unless he just comes in in training camp and proves his mettle. That hasn’t occurred and likely will not occur. 

 

 

[thebandit27]

55 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

I slung no insults your argument is ridiculous your swapping a known better commodity as I have shown for unknown not so good commodity. PFF is used by multiple teams; multiple teams pay for their services. So while a cursory oh he’s new he’s better than Dawkins POV from the fan base such as yourself is the loudest voice in the room it doesn’t make it the smartest decision. If he wins it in training camp fine. I highly doubt the coach is going to move a better commodity away from a position that’s critical to the success and development from “hopefully our franchise qb”. That’s simply not the intelligent move.

Josh understands is “cozy” with the way Dawkins is going to block the different rushes, he after being with him for a year understands where he needs to be in the pocket so he’s not getting destroyed by the pass rusher that Dawkins is blocking.

 

I have said nothing about Eric wood. This argument is about moving arguably your most important position on the line with your current best lt to guard for an unknown lesser rated lt. 

 

That isnt an intelligent stance on any level unless he just comes in in training camp and proves his mettle. That hasn’t occurred and likely will not occur. 

 

 

 

Best 5 on the field, whether it's with Dawkins at LT or not.

 

It's that simple, but you still can't understand it. That long string of gibberish affirms it.

 

And yes, you did sling insults, but I don't mind. I just figured you'd want to know that it makes folks that might otherwise take you half seriously think better of it.

[Bill_with_it]

7 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Best 5 on the field, whether it's with Dawkins at LT or not.

 

It's that simple, but you still can't understand it. That long string of gibberish affirms it.

 

And yes, you did sling insults, but I don't mind. I just figured you'd want to know that it makes folks that might otherwise take you half seriously think better of it.

I asked you not to act ridiculous or irrational if that is insulting well the. Guilty as charged. The off figures I posted were legitimate and it showed that Nsekhe was ranked as the 43 ranked TACKLE not guard. I’m fine with debating but literally nothing factual you posted supports your claim to moving Dawkins to guard and putting Nsekhe at tackle. There will be a competition undoubtedly, however, if it’s even close to which nothing literally nothing whether play on the field or athletic ability suggests it will; familiarity itself will lead to Dawkins rightfully retaining the tackle spot. 

Nothing I have posted was gibberish. 

Yet I’m hurling insults.... 

[thebandit27]

4 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

I asked you not to act ridiculous or irrational if that is insulting well the. Guilty as charged. The off figures I posted were legitimate and it showed that Nsekhe was ranked as the 43 ranked TACKLE not guard. I’m fine with debating but literally nothing factual you posted supports your claim to moving Dawkins to guard and putting Nsekhe at tackle. There will be a competition undoubtedly, however, if it’s even close to which nothing literally nothing whether play on the field or athletic ability suggests it will; familiarity itself will lead to Dawkins rightfully retaining the tackle spot. 

Nothing I have posted was gibberish. 

Yet I’m hurling insults.... 

 

You still clearly don't understand what I said re their respective PFF grades or the situation in general.

 

As typically happens in a discussion with you, I've reached the point where I can go no further without a dramatic shift in your willingness to engage in critical thinking, so it's time to move on.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 3/21/2019 at 11:31 AM, freddyjj said:

See the NFL scouting report and Mayock's comments - his skill set project well to OG.  the 3 cone drill shows short area quickness which could help him in targeting LB/S at second level.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/dion-dawkins?id=2557875

 

OK, fair enough

[freddyjj]

22 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, fair enough

Here is some more food for thought from 2017 draft scouting reports

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-dion-dawkins-g-temple

Edited March 24, 2019 by freddyjj

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, freddyjj said:

Here is some more food for thought from 2017 draft scouting reports

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-dion-dawkins-g-temple

 

 

That's an excellent analysis..........everything we have seen as a pro.

 

The presumption here is that with experience and hard work he can get significantly better at LT.........and maybe so.......but at what point in college or the pros has he shown the exceptional skill at LT that this is being based upon?

 

I see him in that "just good enough to leave in free agency" category at LT.............but I see him in the All Pro conversation as a guard..........in limited opps he came off the ball in the inside run game a bit like Jason Peters has done in his career at LT.     Difference is Peters is a lot more athletic so he can do it against edge players as well.

 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That's an excellent analysis..........everything we have seen as a pro.

 

The presumption here is that with experience and hard work he can get significantly better at LT.........and maybe so.......but at what point in college or the pros has he shown the exceptional skill at LT that this is being based upon?

 

I see him in that "just good enough to leave in free agency" category at LT.............but I see him in the All Pro conversation as a guard..........in limited opps he came off the ball in the inside run game a bit like Jason Peters has done in his career at LT.     Difference is Peters is a lot more athletic so he can do it against edge players as well.

 

LT and LG are both projections. I think there is a somewhat small chance Dawkins could develop into a better LT than you imagine. I think the chances are pretty good he could be a very good LG, though one is still speculating there. I'd like to move him, but right now there isn't a LT to replace him on the roster and I don't see one I would take at nine. I would trade back into the latter part of the first if Dillard is still there, though even then, would you start a rookie at LT? I kinda doubt it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That's an excellent analysis..........everything we have seen as a pro.

 

The presumption here is that with experience and hard work he can get significantly better at LT.........and maybe so.......but at what point in college or the pros has he shown the exceptional skill at LT that this is being based upon?

 

I see him in that "just good enough to leave in free agency" category at LT.............but I see him in the All Pro conversation as a guard..........in limited opps he came off the ball in the inside run game a bit like Jason Peters has done in his career at LT.     Difference is Peters is a lot more athletic so he can do it against edge players as well.

 

 

Again, fair enough...why I asked the question.

My take on Dawkins is that he did a serviceable job in relief of Glenn in 2017, which led to Glenn being seen as expendable (and possibly also not a great fit for Castillo)

I think he looked less serviceable next to the questionmark that was Ducasse and the revolving door of Groy/Bodine/Groy at center than he looked next to two steady vets in Cog and Wood, so maybe with upgrades at LG and center he'd return to serviceable.

 

I had not realized he had such an extensive pedigree at LG.

[billspro]

On 3/22/2019 at 5:01 PM, thebandit27 said:

 

Best 5 on the field, whether it's with Dawkins at LT or not.

 

It's that simple, but you still can't understand it. That long string of gibberish affirms it.

 

And yes, you did sling insults, but I don't mind. I just figured you'd want to know that it makes folks that might otherwise take you half seriously think better of it.

 

It should definitely be the best 5 and if Dawkins can’t win the LT job and has to move to guard that is on him. Protecting Allen is the top priority.

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, billspro said:

 

It should definitely be the best 5 and if Dawkins can’t win the LT job and has to move to guard that is on him. Protecting Allen is the top priority.

 

 

 

Disagree. 

 

The best five players doesn't by any means always make the best line.

 

Plenty of guys are good at one position and not so good at others. And some positions are more important - LT certainly more than LG for instance - and should generally get the best guy at playing LT, which is very likely going to be Dawkins, IMO.

[MrEpsYtown]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I had not realized he had such an extensive pedigree at LG.

 

I think this is a misconception though. He doesnt really have a pedigree at LG. It's just where some experts projected him, and he played some guard at the Senior Bowl. He played a little guard his true freshmen year and then started at left tackle for three years. He played like seven plays at guard here in 2017. 

 

He has the size, the length, 35 inch arms, quickness and agility with a really good three cone. I think he's a left tackle until he proves he can't do it, and he hasn't gotten there yet. 

[thebandit27]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Disagree. 

 

The best five players doesn't by any means always make the best line.

 

Plenty of guys are good at one position and not so good at others. And some positions are more important - LT certainly more than LG for instance - and should generally get the best guy at playing LT, which is very likely going to be Dawkins, IMO.

 

Best combination of 5 is what I said (several times).

 

Maybe Dawkins is the best LT on the team, but looking at his overall body of work at LT versus Nsehke's overall body of work at LT, it's not exactly conclusive.

 

The other component is that Nsehke's best position is clearly LT--he's not nearly as good at LG, and is a bit less comfortable at RT. Given that Dawkins' best position may potentially be LG, the staff needs to weigh the advantages of all situations.

 

It's entirely possible that Dawkins at LT and Nsehke at RT gives them the best combination; it's also possible that they may get a better combination with a slight step down at LT in Nsehke (assuming he's even a step down, which his work at LT hasn't been to this point) and Dawkins at LG.

 

All options should be on the table IMO