cle23 Posted March 20, 2019 Posted March 20, 2019 1 hour ago, BananaB said: I don’t give a ***** what the experts say, i’ve seen just about every game he played at Oklahoma and wanted the Bills to draft since the first game I watched. He hasn’t changed, Baker is who he is. Surround him with talent and he’ll succeed. And let’s face it, if you watched the Browns play the first few games last year the guy that was holding the team back was Taylor. They have a lot of talent (even more now) and they had it at the beginning of last year. I just think it's absurd to say Baker can't improve, or that he doesn't make his team and teammates better. What does Allen do that makes his teammates so much better that Mayfield can't do? Ladt I checked, an accurate QB makes your teammates better. If you know where the ball will be, and with touch, it'll make it so much easier. Baker is light years ahead of Brees at this point in their careers. Did Brees not improve? Manning?
BananaB Posted March 20, 2019 Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, cle23 said: I just think it's absurd to say Baker can't improve, or that he doesn't make his team and teammates better. What does Allen do that makes his teammates so much better that Mayfield can't do? Ladt I checked, an accurate QB makes your teammates better. If you know where the ball will be, and with touch, it'll make it so much easier. Baker is light years ahead of Brees at this point in their careers. Did Brees not improve? Manning? That’s who Baker is, that’s who he was in college. I don’t think he gets much better. Think that all depends on his supporting cast. I still think he is gonna have a long successful career. I’m not comparing Baker to Brees and Manning after one season. To be honest I don’t think it’s fair to compare any young QBs of today to those guys early years, the game is totally different now. Don’t think it’s fair to compare the QBs off 2000s to the ones in the 80s and 90s either. Edited March 20, 2019 by BananaB
cle23 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 50 minutes ago, BananaB said: That’s who Baker is, that’s who he was in college. I don’t think he gets much better. Think that all depends on his supporting cast. I still think he is gonna have a long successful career. I’m not comparing Baker to Brees and Manning after one season. To be honest I don’t think it’s fair to compare any young QBs of today to those guys early years, the game is totally different now. Don’t think it’s fair to compare the QBs off 2000s to the ones in the 80s and 90s either. Brees and Mayfield have very similar skills sets though. Did Brees not improve throughout his career? I just don't understand how anyone can say a rookie QB can't improve. Also, you never answered how or why Allen can improve but Mayfield, it any of the other QBs, can't or won't improve.
BananaB Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, cle23 said: Brees and Mayfield have very similar skills sets though. Did Brees not improve throughout his career? I just don't understand how anyone can say a rookie QB can't improve. Also, you never answered how or why Allen can improve but Mayfield, it any of the other QBs, can't or won't improve. Allen took a offense full of scrubs and put them on his back the last 6 weeks of the season. I have already seen improvement in his game, everyone has. Mayfield was the only QB I wanted last year at draft time, now i’m glad we took Allen and think the Browns may have made a mistake. You can keep asking me the question why I don’t think he is gonna improve and i’m gonna keep giving you the same answer. He’s is who he is. He was the same guy throughout his college career. He never took big steps forward. He walked on to Texas Tech and he produced before getting hurt. When he transferred to Oklahoma he produced more when surrounded by better talent. I’m not comparing Bree’s rookie year with Baker’s because of the difference in football now compared to 2001. Yeah they are similar, doesn’t mean their careers will be similar. Doesn’t mean Baker will be better because he had a better rookie season. Thats my opinion, obviously you don’t feel the same. Edited March 21, 2019 by BananaB
cle23 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 1 hour ago, BananaB said: Allen took a offense full of scrubs and put them on his back the last 6 weeks of the season. I have already seen improvement in his game, everyone has. Mayfield was the only QB I wanted last year at draft time, now i’m glad we took Allen and think the Browns may have made a mistake. You can keep asking me the question why I don’t think he is gonna improve and i’m gonna keep giving you the same answer. He’s is who he is. He was the same guy throughout his college career. He never took big steps forward. He walked on to Texas Tech and he produced before getting hurt. When he transferred to Oklahoma he produced more when surrounded by better talent. I’m not comparing Bree’s rookie year with Baker’s because of the difference in football now compared to 2001. Yeah they are similar, doesn’t mean their careers will be similar. Doesn’t mean Baker will be better because he had a better rookie season. Thats my opinion, obviously you don’t feel the same. Right, it's your opinion, but you can't back it up. Mayfield has improved every year he played. Somehow that's only the " talent around him" but Allen has improved while doing less (with less). I asked the simple question of: why, out of the rookie QBs, is Allen the only one capable of improving or making his teammates better? Mayfield had the best rookie season ever, yet the Browns made a mistake? Homer much?
transplantbillsfan Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 20 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: If there's one thing we know for sure, it's that Allen wasn't in the Jets top two. In fact, he wasn't even in their top three. After the draft, Breer put out an EXTREMELY detailed insider access story including quoted texts, day by day summaries, and on and on about the Jets pursuit of a QB. He went back for two years describing the very earliest roots of the Jets process. https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/16/new-york-jets-sam-darnold-2018-draft "When the Jets dealt up to the No. 3 spot in the draft in March, they’d identified three quarterbacks—Darnold, Mayfield, and UCLA’s Josh Rosen—they were good with. This [Darnold, their favorite, falling to #3] was better than that." AND "The Jets check back with the Browns, who inform them it would take “an arm and a leg” for New York to move up for the first pick. The Jets don’t call the Giants. Why? The belief is because the two teams are in the same market, the Jets would have to pay a tax for the second pick. Also, keeping their trade pursuit quiet is paramount, to keep others from springing into action and setting off a bidding war. Tipping the Giants off, particularly with their connections to the quarterback-hungry Bills’ front office, would have been risky. Indeed, this is where relationships are important. Colts GM Chris Ballard and Maccagnan have one. Dodds and Heimerdinger have one. Indy VP Rex Hogan worked for the Jets from 2015 to ’17, with ties to Maccagnan and Heimerdinger. The Jets know they can trust Indy, and they’re willing to pay a little over the point value to get the third pick, in exchange for Indy keeping the talks confidential. On Thursday, March 15, Dodds passes Heimerdinger off to Ballard, and the deal is done early Saturday. The Jets send their slotted second-rounders for 2018 and ’19, plus the Richardson second-rounder, to Indy to move up from 6 to 3, knowing there are three QBs they’d value there. Maccagnan and Heimerdinger call Johnson for his sign-off. It’s not hard to get." AND "APRIL 8, 2018 "The final set of draft meetings is underway, and it’s time for scouts to present their background on players. Three stand out on the Jamal Adams level: Darnold, Mayfield and Barkley. Zach Truty, the national scout, has Mayfield. Shields, the area scout, has Darnold, Allen and Rosen. He’s written up 320 players in the 2018 draft cycle, but spent about 20-25% of his time over the last year on those three. "The quarterback the Jets believe they won’t get stands out to everyone in the room, along with the quarterback they would wind up never having a shot at. "The grading scale goes to 9. Truty’s report marks Mayfield a perfect 9—exceedingly uncommon—as a teammate, leader and worker, but has lower grades elsewhere on him. Shields has Darnold in the 8s across the board—in football character, family background, personal character, off-field, work ethic, coachability, accountability, leader by example, vocal leader, physical toughness and mental toughness." If the Giants had picked Darnold, the Jets were going Rosen, their 3rd choice. You're talking about stuff that became known AFTER the draft. It's irrelevant. Beane had no access to or knowledge of ANY of this when Beane was reportedly "furious" about the Jets trading up to #3. And it bears repeating... the top 3 teams of last year's draft were in the market for a QB, so Beane being "furious" may have very easily meant he was targeting not just 1 or 2, but 3 QBs, and the Jets trading up to 3 made it genuinely possible Beane wouldn't get his guy.
Thurman#1 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 18 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said: I think it's pretty clear a year later the vast majority of teams had Baker / Darnold / Allen as 1 - 2 - 3 in some order on their boards and the "Chosen Rosen" narrative along with the "Josh Allen is a sure bust" was largely a media creation. IMO most, if not all, teams had Rosen as a distant 4th. There were 3 "prizes" and the Jets moving to 3 assured they would get one. No. As I pointed out above, the Jets had Allen 4th. After the draft, Breer put out an EXTREMELY detailed insider access story including quoted texts, day by day summaries, and on and on about the Jets pursuit of a QB. He went back for two years describing the very earliest roots of the Jets process. https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/16/new-york-jets-sam-darnold-2018-draft "When the Jets dealt up to the No. 3 spot in the draft in March, they’d identified three quarterbacks—Darnold, Mayfield, and UCLA’s Josh Rosen—they were good with. This [Darnold, their favorite, falling to #3] was better than that."
Thurman#1 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: You're talking about stuff that became known AFTER the draft. It's irrelevant. Beane had no access to or knowledge of ANY of this when Beane was reportedly "furious" about the Jets trading up to #3. And it bears repeating... the top 3 teams of last year's draft were in the market for a QB, so Beane being "furious" may have very easily meant he was targeting not just 1 or 2, but 3 QBs, and the Jets trading up to 3 made it genuinely possible Beane wouldn't get his guy. It may be irrelevant to some point you're making about which I am not concerned. But it's completely relevant to what I'm saying with that post, which is that the Jets had Allen 4th and weren't going to take him under any circumstances at #3. In fact, it proves it. Several on here have continued to try to say that the Jets might have wanted Allen. Including the post I replied to just above this. They didn't. They had him 4th. Edited March 21, 2019 by Thurman#1
Doc Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: It may be irrelevant to some point you're making about which I am not concerned. But it's completely relevant to what I'm saying with that post, which is that the Jets had Allen 4th and weren't going to take him under any circumstances at #3. In fact, it proves it. Several on here have continued to try to say that the Jets might have wanted Allen. Including the post I replied to just above this. They didn't. They had him 4th. The only thing that is relevant to this discussion is that no one was aware of how the Jets had the QB's ranked before the draft. Similarly, no one knew the Giants were all-in on Barkley 6 weeks before the draft when the trade-up was made. So the Bills were right to be worried that Allen would be gone by the 3rd pick.
dlonce Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: The report the Bills were furious is ridiculous. Why the hell would they be furious? They might have been pissed about the amount of compensation the Jets gave up but furious is not the word to use. Such hyperbole. Its certainly not because they drafted Darnold. They may have thought they were moving up for Allen.
WideNine Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, dlonce said: The report the Bills were furious is ridiculous. Why the hell would they be furious? They might have been pissed about the amount of compensation the Jets gave up but furious is not the word to use. Such hyperbole. Its certainly not because they drafted Darnold. They may have thought they were moving up for Allen. Dunno. Could be nothing, or that they floated a similar deal and were rejected and were just P.O'd that they could not secure that spot ahead of the Jets. Does not really play into who was selected, rather ensuring they were in position to get their guy. Rumors galore...someday the record will be set straight.
Doc Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Again I believe that if they were furious, it was for the Colts going with the Jets.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 1 hour ago, dlonce said: The report the Bills were furious is ridiculous. Why the hell would they be furious? They might have been pissed about the amount of compensation the Jets gave up but furious is not the word to use. Such hyperbole. Its certainly not because they drafted Darnold. They may have thought they were moving up for Allen. 18 minutes ago, Doc said: Again I believe that if they were furious, it was for the Colts going with the Jets. What Doc said. And also because the Jets/Colts move came only a couple days after the Bills small victory of trading-up with the Bengals. I think the Bills were in talks with the Colts (among others) about moving up, and they were told that if they got higher in the draft then they could make a deal. The Bills go and move their LT to get up to #12, and the Colts pull the trigger with our division rivals to get into a position the Bills KNEW they couldnt leap frog. Why wouldnt the Bills be pissed? 1
Jay_Fixit Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Ya well I’m pissed that Tipster changed his mind on who he wants the Bills to draft. 2
LSHMEAB Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said: Ya well I’m pissed that Tipster changed his mind on who he wants the Bills to draft. Same. I was all primed to cheer for the Bills to land his guy. Now I feel like I'm wandering the forest aimlessly. 1 2
Jay_Fixit Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said: Same. I was all primed to cheer for the Bills to land his guy. Now I feel like I'm wandering the forest aimlessly. It truly is a day that will live in infamy. 1 1
Forward Progress Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 When the Jets traded up, I was concerned that it would make it more difficult to get our Franchise QB. It makes sense that Beane and company were concerned about how this affected the draft-day landscape. The price to trade up to 2 with the Giants would have been too much, leaving us to fight for the third or fourth QB off the board. In hindsight, it couldn't have worked out any better. We got our QB without giving up too much, such that we were still able to grab Edmunds in the same first round.
Ol Dirty B Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 On 3/19/2019 at 7:47 AM, billsbackto81 said: Forgive me for forgetting TB in the equation. Was my spelling ok at least? Any opinions on the post or were you just fact checking? I mean your timeline is way off. That's the issue with that post.
Saxum Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 On 3/20/2019 at 6:04 AM, Thurman#1 said: If the Giants had picked Darnold, the Jets were going Rosen, their 3rd choice. Damn Giants I wanted the Jest to suffer with Rosen!
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