Erie County Union Heads No Show

[TheMadCap]

Remarkably, when the BILLS were actually the class of the NFL there was no salary cap.

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There you go again, messing up someone's argument with facts....

[gmac17]

Boat, a number of the people arguing against you on this one either own their own company, have owned their own company or work in management and have personal experiences employing a lot of people.

 

One of the best things any individual can do for their country / the economy is to start a business. My goal in starting businesses is absolutely to make money, and there is nothing I enjoy more than running a business. This doesn't mean that I don't pay well and treat people like crap. Your stereotyping of the corporate greed is no different than the stereotyping of the lazy inefficient unions.

 

My personal experiences are what have shaped my opinions. Dealing with teachers who don't give a crap because they have tenure, dealing with lazy union workers at trade shows who are absolutely the most incompetent people I have ever met, and being told during a summer job not to work so hard because I was going to kill the job.

 

I know I've dealt with thousands of pleasant, competent, hard working union workers without noticing them, as I'm sure you've dealt with thousands of business owners and corporate types who weren't out to get rich and light cigars with $100 bills.

[Boatdrinks]

Boat, a number of the people arguing against you on this one either own their own company, have owned their own company or work in management and have personal experiences employing a lot of people.

 

One of the best things any individual can do for their country / the economy is to start a business. My goal in starting businesses is absolutely to make money, and there is nothing I enjoy more than running a business. This doesn't mean that I don't pay well and treat people like crap.  Your stereotyping of the corporate greed is no different than the stereotyping of the lazy inefficient unions.

 

My personal experiences are what have shaped my opinions. Dealing with teachers who don't give a crap because they have tenure, dealing with lazy union workers at trade shows who are absolutely the most incompetent people I have ever met, and being told during a summer job not to work so hard because I was going to kill the job.

 

I know I've dealt with thousands of pleasant, competent, hard working union workers without noticing them, as I'm sure you've dealt with thousands of business owners and corporate types who weren't out to get rich and light cigars with $100 bills.

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Agreed. Hey, I'm all for getting rich. There is nothing wrong with that, as it has served as the incentive for building the best country in the world. And I also believe a smaller business is going to value it's employees more and treat them as an integral part of the business, not a number. The bad things I see and read about tend to be within your large mega corporations. Stereotypes are what they are, and are obviously not all encompassing. I don't see much need for a union at a small company. I've worked as a salaried white collar manager and have never held a job that could be truly considered labor since I was 16. My current job truly requires a union as it is highly politicized and you honestly need some protection or you could be tormented your entire career by a high level supervisor with a grudge. This is fact. It is a tense environment where politics is the order of the day, and everything would be decided by who you know. I don't truly believe every job requires a union, I just don't think they are all bad. It's just a means of negotiating a contract and having representation. Yes I see some lazy people who want to feel untouchable, but that is a character flaw of an individual , not to mention being a false sense of security. I've seen many people get fired and lose their union represented hearing. A union can't change facts.

[Bill from NYC]

Remarkably, when the BILLS were actually the class of the NFL there was no salary cap.

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True, but this was before Paul Allen, Dan Snyder, Blank, etc. owned football teams. Ralph is a starving Ethiopian compared to these guys, and it would be all but impossible to compete with them.

Are you anti-salary cap in the NFL?

[Alaska Darin]

True, but this was before Paul Allen, Dan Snyder, Blank, etc. owned football teams. Ralph is a starving Ethiopian compared to these guys, and it would be all but impossible to compete with them.

Are you anti-salary cap in the NFL?

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No it wasn't. There have always been affluent owners in the NFL. New England and Washington (in their own ways) have proven teams full of superstars aren't necessarily going to be successful.

[Bill from NYC]

No it wasn't.  There have always been affluent owners in the NFL.  New England and Washington (in their own ways) have proven teams full of superstars aren't necessarily going to be successful.

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I know that. The Yankees proved otherwise.

 

PS: I am not a baseball fan.

[TracyLee]

Speaking of the Yankees, it's almost time to..............PLAY BALL!!!

[Bill from NYC]

Sure there's such a thing as a good working relationship. But there's also tons of evidence of corruption, waste, and stupid union rules that make it difficult for companies to compete.

 

For example, the last place I worked, I couldn't move a small table & 3 chairs 10 feet to have a meeting without calling facilities to do it. Why? The union that the facilities maintenance crews belonged to forced my former place of buisness to include that in their renewed contract. They were afriad that they would become useless. So my former place of work not only had to deal with the inefficiency that this caused, they had to set up a system by which I had to request stupid services like this, and wait for 3 days for the stuff to be moved. Yeah, that makes quite a bit of sense.

 

That's the kind of stupidity that helps me form my opinion. Of course, some unions are good. Teacher's unions for example.

 

And please don't use the NFL as an example of what that majority of unions are like. These players are MILLIONAIRES, not your average joe.

 

I am a smart guy. Who thinks the days of corruption and ineficciency should be behind us.

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OK, you want to disregard NFL players? Fair enough.

UPS is an example of a highly profitable company at which employees are working extremely hard, and they are compensated quite well. The reason? A good working relationship with the Teamsters Union.

Sure, they had their share of problems, but the company and the workers are doing quite well, right?

[IDBillzFan]

OK, you want to disregard NFL players? Fair enough.

UPS is an example of a highly profitable company at which employees are working extremely hard, and they are compensated quite well. The reason? A good working relationship with the Teamsters Union.

Sure, they had their share of problems, but the company and the workers are doing quite well, right?

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From what I've been told by UPS drivers, you are correct.

 

One has to wonder, though. Are they paid well and receive good benefits because of their union, or because of the competition. You have FedEx and UPS, then suddenly the postal service is in the mix with their great pay and bennies (my brother carries in Long Island), and then you have DHL making a push.

 

To get good people you must take good care of them...regardless of what the union says.

 

I'm not saying the union doesn't have a hand in your example. I just think competition lends a stronger hand.

[Bill from NYC]

From what I've been told by UPS drivers, you are correct.

 

One has to wonder, though. Are they paid well and receive good benefits because of their union, or because of the competition. You have FedEx and UPS, then suddenly the postal service is in the mix with their great pay and bennies (my brother carries in Long Island), and then you have DHL making a push.

 

To get good people you must take good care of them...regardless of what the union says.

 

I'm not saying the union doesn't have a hand in your example. I just think competition lends a stronger hand.

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Well, the USPS and DHL are also unionized. This is a growing field due to internet shopping, but I am thinking that if the union was at a state of war with UPS, things would not be running as smooth for either party.

[sweet baboo]

OK, you want to disregard NFL players? Fair enough.

UPS is an example of a highly profitable company at which employees are working extremely hard, and they are compensated quite well. The reason? A good working relationship with the Teamsters Union.

Sure, they had their share of problems, but the company and the workers are doing quite well, right?

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i worked for UPS and was a member of the teamster's union

i would highly recommend you ship your packages via fedex

i interviewed at fedex and would've taken the job since they had higher pay and they treat your packages "as if they were your won" according to the managers (and they really do) except the hours were terrible 1am-5am M-F...at the UPS interview, they were slamming down packages like TD celebrations and throwing boxes (sometimes with computers in them) around...but hey, as long as you don't steal something, you're all good...took the UPS job because hours were better...would've preferred to have not lost a huge chunk of my paychecks to the union, but meh...i needed part time work as a college student

 

another reason why UPS, USPS, DHL, etc. employees are paid well are...well, you certainly can't outsource this labor

[Bill from NYC]

i worked for UPS and was a member of the teamster's union

i would highly recommend you ship your packages via fedex

i interviewed at fedex and would've taken the job since they had higher pay and they treat your packages "as if they were your won" according to the managers (and they really do) except the hours were terrible 1am-5am M-F...at the UPS interview, they were slamming down packages like TD celebrations and throwing boxes (sometimes with computers in them) around...but hey, as long as you don't steal something, you're all good...took the UPS job because hours were better...would've preferred to have not lost a huge chunk of my paychecks to the union, but meh...i needed part time work as a college student

 

another reason why UPS, USPS, DHL, etc. employees are paid well are...well, you certainly can't outsource this labor

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What a sad story. I have a large amount of sympathy for you. I view your saga as simply heart warming. Can you feel it?

It is oh so simple to tell idealistic tales of woe when one is a kid. An adult would be happier to work for a union shop which offers security, better medical coverage and a superior retirement plan for his or her family.

UPS is not suffering. Both the company and the workers are thriving, but please do not let this stop you from telling us more melancholy sob stories, nor pushing your anti-labor views.

[sweet baboo]

ok, let me retell this cliffs notes style to spare you from the boohoo drama

 

-ship with fedex which uses non union labor and will treat your packages with respect because their jobs are on the line

 

pardon my idealistic views that believe that my packages should arrive undamaged

[Bill from NYC]

ok, let me retell this cliffs notes style to spare you from the boohoo drama

 

-ship with fedex which uses non union labor and will treat your packages with respect because their jobs are on the line

 

pardon my idealistic views that believe that my packages should arrive undamaged

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OK, let me put what I am saying in a friendlier way....

 

UPS is thriving. The employees work very hard and are well compensated. These are good things.

At UPS and DHL, the workers have seniority rights. This does not mean that they take it easy all day, as I am certain you have seen while employed there. Without this kind of stability, it is difficult for a person to make a marital committment and support his or her children.

Non-Union companies have an easier time firing people as they age and/or get sick. Believe it or not, this will happen to you some day.

While reading one of your postings, I recall being impressed by your education. I also respect you quite a bit for working at a hard, physically demanding job while attending school. That said, I find no reason for you to begrudge those who are perhaps less accomplished than you will be in all probability.

I cited UPS as an example of a Labor/Management situation that can work for both sides. If the service was THAT bad, UPS would not be expanding all over the world.

My friendly (albeit unsolicited) advice to you is to continue to work hard and achieve. I am confident that you will do so.

At the same time, please try not to think so little of those unable to soar to your heights. There is just no need for it.

[Alaska Darin]

OK, let me put what I am saying in a friendlier way....

 

UPS is thriving. The employees work very hard and are well compensated. These are good things.

At UPS and DHL, the workers have seniority rights. This does not mean that they take it easy all day, as I am certain you have seen while employed there. Without this kind of stability, it is difficult for a person to make a marital committment and support his or her children.

Non-Union companies have an easier time firing people as they age and/or get sick. Believe it or not, this will happen to you some day.

While reading one of your postings, I recall being impressed by your education. I also respect you quite a bit for working at a hard, physically demanding job while attending school. That said, I find no reason for you to begrudge those who are perhaps less accomplished than you will be in all probability.

I cited UPS as an example of a Labor/Management situation that can work for both sides. If the service was THAT bad, UPS would not be expanding all over the world.

My friendly (albeit unsolicited) advice to you is to continue to work hard and achieve. I am confident that you will do so.

At the same time, please try not to think so little of those unable to soar to your heights. There is just no need for it.

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Oh that's right. When someone uses life experience in a contrarian argument, they are looking down on others. Got it.

[Bill from NYC]

Oh that's right.  When someone uses life experience in a contrarian argument, they are looking down on others.  Got it. 

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Come now Darin. His knowledge of FedEx consists of what managers told him. That is what he said. He does not claim to have actually seen how they treat packages, yet he took a stance (much to your delight I am sure) against a success story, unionized company.

Seriously, does the fact that unionized workers at UPS are fairly compensated for working hard bother you? Do you scorn each and every union and/or their members? Or, are you just going off on a hair splitting tangent?

Man, where is DC Tom, the master of hair splitting tangents?

[Alaska Darin]

Come now Darin. His knowledge of FedEx consists of what managers told him. That is what he said. He does not claim to have actually seen how they treat packages, yet he took a stance (much to your delight I am sure) against a success story, unionized company.

Seriously, does the fact that unionized workers at UPS are fairly compensated for working hard bother you? Do you scorn each and every union and/or their members? Or, are you just going off on a hair splitting tangent? 

Man, where is DC Tom, the master of hair splitting tangents? 

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I don't believe in absolutes but I worked PT for a shipping company at the airport when I was in the military and I saw EXACTLY what he was talking about. Plus, my sister-in-law has been a FedEx driver for 15 years.

 

My experience with unions has not been a good one, though there have been exceptions on occasion. I agreed with you before that jobs in the public sector like police need protection because they work for scummer politicos looking to make their mark by offering up someone no-name in a highly publicized case. That doesn't mean I think it works very well or that people like Jackie Presser should be flying around in Lehr jets dressed in Armani bought off the backs of laborers.

[Bill from NYC]

I don't believe in absolutes but I worked PT for a shipping company at the airport when I was in the military and I saw EXACTLY what he was talking about.  Plus, my sister-in-law has been a FedEx driver for 15 years.

 

My experience with unions has not been a good one, though there have been exceptions on occasion.  I agreed with you before that jobs in the public sector like police need protection because they work for scummer politicos looking to make their mark by offering up someone no-name in a highly publicized case.  That doesn't mean I think it works very well or that people like Jackie Presser should be flying around in Lehr jets dressed in Armani bought off the backs of laborers.

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Has your sister-in-law ever explained why the voted against a union? I could never understand this.

As for Presser, you will get no arguement from me. Ron Carey seemed to be a good leader, but it looked like he was fighting off the mob and the government....a pretty tall task.

Btw, the "Italian Mafia" is all but finished, and their role in organized labor is all but done.

[sweet baboo]

Come now Darin. His knowledge of FedEx consists of what managers told him. That is what he said. He does not claim to have actually seen how they treat packages, yet he took a stance (much to your delight I am sure) against a success story, unionized company.

Seriously, does the fact that unionized workers at UPS are fairly compensated for working hard bother you? Do you scorn each and every union and/or their members? Or, are you just going off on a hair splitting tangent? 

Man, where is DC Tom, the master of hair splitting tangents? 

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actually, i did see both facilities first hand...during both interviews, the managers walked me through the floors of both facilities...i'm pretty sure the fed ex manager didn't tell his employees "hey! we've got some college kid coming in for an interview, act like you're real careful!"...

if someone works hard, they should be fairly compensated...i don't scorn those people at all...my problem with unions is the lack of accountability for those that don't do the job they're paid to do...since i was apparently too young and naive to understand what i was subjected to before, i can give you an example of what i'm seeing currently

at my fiance's work, they have a contract with some union janitorial service...they do absolutely nothing which pisses off the employees because that leaves them to take out their own trash and clean up...no big deal right? it shouldn't be hard to clean up after yourself...UNLESS YOU HIRE SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT...they wanted to hire non union janitors instead, but couldn't because of some union agreement...and because of this union agreement, you can't even threaten these janitors to do their work

 

i'm not very clear on the whole mafia business, but doesn't it seem strange to anyone that jimmy hoffa jr. is the head of the teamster's union?

[TheMadCap]

actually, i did see both facilities first hand...during both interviews, the managers walked me through the floors of both facilities...i'm pretty sure the fed ex manager didn't tell his employees "hey! we've got some college kid coming in for an interview, act like you're real careful!"...

if someone works hard, they should be fairly compensated...i don't scorn those people at all...my problem with unions is the lack of accountability for those that don't do the job they're paid to do...since i was apparently too young and naive to understand what i was subjected to before, i can give you an example of what i'm seeing currently

at my fiance's work, they have a contract with some union janitorial service...they do absolutely nothing which pisses off the employees because that leaves them to take out their own trash and clean up...no big deal right? it shouldn't be hard to clean up after yourself...UNLESS YOU HIRE SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT...they wanted to hire non union janitors instead, but couldn't because of some union agreement...and because of this union agreement, you can't even threaten these janitors to do their work

 

i'm not very clear on the whole mafia business, but doesn't it seem strange to anyone that jimmy hoffa jr. is the head of the teamster's union?

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Be carefull. If the union finds out you took your trash out yourself instead of waiting a few weeks till they get around to it, they will scream and cry and you will get in biiiiiiiigggg trouble...