OGTEleven Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 I'm going to be obnoxious and try this again since Illy hijacked it the first time and turned it into an anatomy thread. If you feel like commenting on the overall point, have at it. If not, please go back to the hijacked thread or the 39 page Terri thread. This post is part opinion and part prediction. As Terri Schiavo dies of dehydration and starvation, the attorney for her husband has told us all that she is doing so painlessly and peacefully. Morphine has been administered to her, so it seems as if there may be some pain being felt. This isn't meant to be a thread about whether she should be kept on a feeding tube or not. It is about what I think will happen next (I hope I'm wrong). Currently the majority of articles in the press describe the "rational" arguments for pulling the tube and the "wildly flailing and emotional arguments" for keeping it in. They paint a picture that we are supposed to see in a certain way. Terry is compared with various forms of plant life and made fun of in the press and on this site and others. This is what disturbs me the most. Opinion: Human life is important and its value is being defaced in this process. Prediction: Felos and his gang will take it to the next level some months (probably about 4) after Terri's death. They will "discover" how much pain she went through in this process and argue that others in her situation should be spared this pain. This will be a gradual process of course, but over the years there will be attempts to raise the standard for what constitutes "life" and which "illusions" should be put to an end. Felos and others like him will lead the charge. It starts with a feeding tube, then maybe a wheelchair, or a voicebox, or whatever. It never really ends. I know this is a slippery slope argument, but it is there in front of us happening. I don't think it is a socialist vs. capitalist thing per se, but it does involve people who have a "utopian" view of what is best for society. They feel they are smarter than others and can be the judges of what value a life has. They may or may not succeed in their efforts, but they are wrong regardless of their future "successes". Human life has value and always will whether our society recognizes it or not.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 As Terri Schiavo dies of dehydration and starvation, the attorney for her husband has told us all that she is doing so painlessly and peacefully. Morphine has been administered to her, so it seems as if there may be some pain being felt. Terri isn't feeling any pain. And if that's not true, then some pain WAS being felt, but is no longer because of the morphine. So essentially it's a painless death because of whatever reason. This isn't meant to be a thread about whether she should be kept on a feeding tube or not. It is about what I think will happen next (I hope I'm wrong). Currently the majority of articles in the press describe the "rational" arguments for pulling the tube and the "wildly flailing and emotional arguments" for keeping it in. They paint a picture that we are supposed to see in a certain way. Terry is compared with various forms of plant life and made fun of in the press and on this site and others. This is what disturbs me the most. Opinion: Human life is important and its value is being defaced in this process. Prediction: Felos and his gang will take it to the next level some months (probably about 4) after Terri's death. They will "discover" how much pain she went through in this process and argue that others in her situation should be spared this pain. This will be a gradual process of course, but over the years there will be attempts to raise the standard for what constitutes "life" and which "illusions" should be put to an end. Felos and others like him will lead the charge. It starts with a feeding tube, then maybe a wheelchair, or a voicebox, or whatever. It never really ends. I know this is a slippery slope argument, but it is there in front of us happening. I don't think it is a socialist vs. capitalist thing per se, but it does involve people who have a "utopian" view of what is best for society. They feel they are smarter than others and can be the judges of what value a life has. They may or may not succeed in their efforts, but they are wrong regardless of their future "successes". Human life has value and always will whether our society recognizes it or not. I'm not sure if I understand you. Are you saying Felos would completely reverse course and now say that "killing" Terri was wrong because it was painful? Or that Terri living in her PVS was "painful" and she should have been "killed" earlier? If the former, I doubt it, but if you have specific examples of that happening, I'd like to hear. If the latter, it won't be up to Felos to decide end-of-life issues. However with the looming health care crisis, those decisions will have to be addressed.
OGTEleven Posted March 30, 2005 Author Posted March 30, 2005 Terri isn't feeling any pain. And if that's not true, then some pain WAS being felt, but is no longer because of the morphine. So essentially it's a painless death because of whatever reason. I'm not sure if I understand you. Are you saying Felos would completely reverse course and now say that "killing" Terri was wrong because it was painful? Or that Terri living in her PVS was "painful" and she should have been "killed" earlier? If the former, I doubt it, but if you have specific examples of that happening, I'd like to hear. If the latter, it won't be up to Felos to decide end-of-life issues. However with the looming health care crisis, those decisions will have to be addressed. 291099[/snapback] It's only a prediction and it's the latter. Felos, upon the "discovery" of the pain Terri suffered, will advocate euthansia as an alternative to what was done. He and others like him will gradually be more and more in the news. You have already bought part of this argument as evidenced with your phrase "looming health care crisis" comment. Who decides how many dollars a life is worth?
Gavin in Va Beach Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 I'm a bit confused, are you ultimately soliciting our opinions on what we perceive to be the value of a single human life?
OGTEleven Posted March 30, 2005 Author Posted March 30, 2005 I'm a bit confused, are you ultimately soliciting our opinions on what we perceive to be the value of a single human life? 291120[/snapback] Not really. Sorry for the confusion. My prediction is that Terri's case will (eventually) become one of the poster children for euthanasia. My opinion is that euthanasia is very dangerous for society. My guess is that others will feel or be swayed to feel that it is healthy for society. That is what I was trying (obtusely) to discuss.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 Not really. Sorry for the confusion. My prediction is that Terri's case will (eventually) becaome one of the poster children for euthanasia. My opinion is that euthanasia is very dangerous for society. My guess is that others will feel or be swayed to feel that it is healthy for society. That is what I was trying (obtusely) to discuss. 291143[/snapback] I feel euthenasia, properly applied, is healthy for society. Let's start with everyone involved in creating this Terry Schiavo circus, including but not limited to Congress.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 soylent green is people! 291210[/snapback] Exactly. And Spot on, OGT.
Johnny Coli Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 The only "movement" I see coming out of this, OGT, is that there will be a wave of DNR and Living Will documents filled out. I don't see there being a sliding of society towards widespread euthanasia. The industry would rather have a ward full of Terri Schiavo's, vegging away for decade$ and decade$, than a ward full of empty beds. The old and feeble require care...expen$ive care.
blzrul Posted March 30, 2005 Posted March 30, 2005 If pain is felt - is she cognizant of it? It's like the tree in the forest - there are stimuli that she may react to, like reflexes. But if part of "pain" is recognizing it so steps can be taken to stop or avoid it. It's really not different I suppose from the argument that insects don't feel pain or that animals aren't hurt by certain methods of handline. It's an imperfect science. Best guess "wins".
OGTEleven Posted March 31, 2005 Author Posted March 31, 2005 The only "movement" I see coming out of this, OGT, is that there will be a wave of DNR and Living Will documents filled out. I don't see there being a sliding of society towards widespread euthanasia. The industry would rather have a ward full of Terri Schiavo's, vegging away for decade$ and decade$, than a ward full of empty beds. The old and feeble require care...expen$ive care. 291440[/snapback] There is a lot of good in the fact that the living will awareness has gone way up. People should make their own decisions and document them properly. As for my prediction, we shall see. I hope it's wrong.
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