Democratic Socialists: You Have No Case

[Foxx]

29 minutes ago, SoCoBills said:

 

How is Bernie a contradiction. I've seen a few BS arguments about this so I'm wondering what pretense you are basing this claim on.

many reasons. perhaps his use of private planes that would seem to go against his global warming climate change agenda. or maybe his saying that america needs a $15 minimum wage whilst paying his interns $12 an hour.  or that a great amount of his message screams against wealth and privilege?

 

also, it doesn't seem like Democratic Socialism (or whatever you want to call it these days) would allow for him getting over $7mm in campaign donations while his opponent received less than $200k. but, i digress. he is really no different than any of the other congressional critters.

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Nothing would be so simply solved. The reps need spines more than anything. Lobbyists can be helpful to groups of people who can’t get to DC to have their voices heard. If I’m the father of a crippled (this word is  now PC according to my daughter. Though it still feels awkward) kid, and I live in the minority of people whose kids are disab—crippled, having someone who is paid to do research about the problem, who has DC connections and can advocate on my behalf, is nice. Because I have the time to write a $500 check, and make some calls, but the rest of the time I’m working to provide for my family. The lobbyist helps me. 

 

Lobby reform, surely, is worth something. But it’s only a piece until the Congresspeople take their own reins and do their job with less interference from them. 

you really believe a lobbyist helps you, huh? alrighty then.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Foxx

[BeginnersMind]

15 minutes ago, Foxx said:

you really believe a lobbyist helps you, huh? alrighty then.

 

If lobbyists were ineffective, why would you be against them?

 

Of course they are effective. They also clog the democratic process like zebra mussels, which is why reform would be good. 

[Foxx]

8 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

If lobbyists were ineffective, why would you be against them?

 

Of course they are effective. They also clog the democratic process like zebra mussels, which is why reform would be good. 

:sigh:

[GG]

15 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

If lobbyists were ineffective, why would you be against them?

 

Of course they are effective. They also clog the democratic process like zebra mussels, which is why reform would be good. 

 

Ben Shapiro had a great interview with Dan Crenshaw over the weekend.  They brought up a very good point about lobbyist effectiveness - if it were that easy to bribe a lawmaker, why don't lobbyists have 100% success rates if all it takes is throwing money at the problem?

[SoCal Deek]

Lobbyists actually serve an important function. Their job is to represent a group of constituents who otherwise would each have to approach their representatives individually. And since many of these politicians Make national policy it’s important for nationwide industries to be able to speak with one voice. Lobbyist are NOT the problem.  The problem is the politicians that enjoy be lobbied and take contributions, lunches, dinners and other gifts from lobbyists while all the while pretending to be ‘public servants’.

[BeginnersMind]

17 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Lobbyists actually serve an important function. Their job is to represent a group of constituents who otherwise would each have to approach their representatives individually. And since many of these politicians Make national policy it’s important for nationwide industries to be able to speak with one voice. Lobbyist are NOT the problem.  The problem is the politicians that enjoy be lobbied and take contributions, lunches, dinners and other gifts from lobbyists while all the while pretending to be ‘public servants’.

 

Yup. 

[SoCoBills]

Regarding Bernie contradictions - it's amazing the standards people try and hold politicians to with whom they don't like while overlooking complete insanity by their parties electorate or POTUS.

 

Let me address as many of those "contradictions" as I have the time to right now. Im rushing and using my phone to type so apologies for likely spelling errors to come:

 

1. Of course he uses planes, for a politician traveling the globe campaigning it's a necessary evil. Bernie's climate change beliefs still hold and this is not a contradiction. He's pushing for alternative options for transportation like high speed rails and ways to make air travel more environmentally friendly. Biofuels or alternative energy sources etc.

 

2. Joining the Democratic Party isn't a contradiction. Bernie knew he couldn't win as an independent so he started helping to transform the Democratic Party bc it lost its way long ago.  In comes a group of Justice Democrats and also notice how all of the centrist candidates now are using all of Bernie's talking points in their campaigns for 2020. He's transformed the party into something that more closely mirrors his views because they make sense.

 

3. You mention his donations and how much money he's raised. He took a no corporate donation no Super Pac money pledge. Again, Bernie doesn't believe in absolute wealth equality but just an end to immoral levels of corruption caused inequality.  Average donations of $27 dollars I believe whereas Kamela had an event recently with tickets by lobbyists going for like $30,000 a pop.

 

I'm out of time for now but it's wild u need to focus on things of zero consequence bc politically speaking Bernie has been the most consistent politician in terms of voting record, rhetoric and policy position of the last few generations. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by SoCoBills

[GG]

6 minutes ago, SoCoBills said:

Regarding Bernie contradictions - it's amazing the standards people try and hold politicians to with whom they don't like while overlooking complete insanity by their parties electorate or POTUS.

 

Let me address as many of those "contradictions" as I have the time to right now. Im rushing and using my phone to type so apologies for likely spelling errors to come:

 

1. Of course he uses planes, for a politician traveling the globe campaigning it's a necessary evil. Bernie's climate change beliefs still hold and this is not a contradiction. He's pushing for alternative options for transportation like high speed rails and ways to make air travel more environmentally friendly. Biofuels or alternative energy sources etc.

 

2. Joining the Democratic Party isn't a contradiction. Bernie knew he couldn't win as an independent so he started helping to transform the Democratic Party bc it lost its way long ago.  In comes a group of Justice Democrats and also notice how all of the centrist candidates now are using all of Bernie's talking points in their campaigns for 2020. He's transformed the party into something that more closely mirrors his views because they make sense.

 

3. You mention his donations and how much money he's raised. He took a no corporate donation no Super Pac money pledge. Again, Bernie doesn't believe in absolute wealth equality but just an end to immoral levels of corruption caused inequality.  Average donations of $27 dollars I believe whereas Kamela had an event recently with tickets by lobbyists going for like $30,000 a pop.

I'm out of time for now

 

It's worse than a contradiction, it's totally hypocritical and typical of socialist mindset.   Why take the time and effort to build something on your own, when it's just as easy to appropriate what someone else built and then call it your own?   I really feel sorry for Bernie's cause because it's hard to win as an independent.   

 

But I know, the NEXT time socialists try something, it will surely work.

Edited March 6, 2019 by GG

[BringBackOrton]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

 

It's worse than a contradiction, it's totally hypocritical and typical of socialist mindset.   Why take the time and effort to build something on your own, when it's just as easy to appropriate what someone else built and then call it your own?   I really feel sorry for Bernie's cause because it's hard to win as an independent.   

 

But I know, the NEXT time socialists try something, it will surely work.

I feel bad for Bernie. It’s hard being the voice for the poor and downtrodden with 3 houses. I may throw him a vote.

[3rdnlng]

1 hour ago, SoCoBills said:

 

When the constitution was written a free market made sense. Competition, hard work, supply and demand and the American Dream. Now however, regulation is necessary to prevent corporate greed from ruining the economy for the benefit of the richest in the country. Our Republic doesn't represent the will of the people and that is a 100% fact. Studies have shown this. The will of the people has 0% influence on whether or not laws are passed in Congress. How many more times can we pay for bailouts? Banks are already back to handing out subprime mortgages. 

 

Again you go to the "socialism" is evil type argument but when social principals are being used to establish minimum standards of living, when money is removed from the political equation and regulation of big business creates real competition as opposed to corporate consolidation with all competitors under the same umbrella of a few parent corporations price fixing the market to suffocate consumers....then and only then in an economy this big can the will of the people and not the elite be represented.

 

Capitalism unchecked in this modern era is all about greed, corporate consolidation, monopolizing markets and finding loopholes in laws and tax Haven's to get the rich, richer and richer. No longer does increased worker productivity equal increased wages. No longer can most families afford to have the typical old school family dynamic where Dad works and Mom is at home raising the kids and keeping the home. Now both parents must work full time, kids are raised by daycares or babysitters or if you are lucky, family members while you are at work.

 

People call this generation lazy and entitled but this generation has it way harder than generations before it.  Paychecks don't go as far as stagnant pay with increasing costs of living continues to shrink the middle class.

 

I'm sorry I understand the fear of calling things Socialism and change being scary to some but establishing social minimums of healthcare and education as human rights is not the same thing as the government taking control of the entire economy with Socialism in the fear mongering ways Fox News pundits would have you believe.

 

If you look at the corruption and greed of pharmaceutical and health insurance companies alone and really researched it you'd be all in on single payer. These other countries rank way higher in quality and pricing than we do. People are legit dying because they cannot afford to get healthcare they need to live and these are including people with health insurance.

They want to game the system because they feel entitled and think socialism is their answer.

 

http://mynorthwest.com/91419/they-asked-for-a-higher-wage-but-now-they-want-fewer-hours/

 

We learned this week that a local nonprofit, Full Life Care, started to notice that their workers were asking to work less hours, despite getting a pay bump, thanks to Phase 1 of the $15 an hour law. Obviously that might shock some of you. If you’re low income and you just got a raise (in this case to $13 an hour), you’d think the workers would embrace this because it means more pay for the same amount of work.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

It turns out, they’re asking for less hours because now that they’re making more money, they’re being taken off subsidies that make their life just a little bit easier for them. Without it, they’re making more of an hourly wage, but they’re still poor (and now without additional help).

[The_Dude]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

OK Doc...I'm dying to find out where YOU think a twenty-something ditsy bartender gets these ideas?  Was she born with them?  No...she was indoctrinated from a young age by teachers, and later professors.

 

I highly disagree. The decline in our character is what it is. American values are no longer American values. Immigrants don’t know how this country formed. They do NOT understand what it meant to ‘move to the colonies / America’. The term “American Exceptionalism,” know what it means? It doesn’t mean what most people think it means. People read it and say ‘that’s another way Americans say they’re better than everybody else.’ But it doesn’t mean that. The term refers to the quality of immigrant it took to make it here. Yeah, this is like colonial era and not post-1776. See, the British were NOT accustomed to literally having to fight and work for survival. Many died of disease. Many went back home quickly. They couldn’t make it because a footman (auto correct literally corrected that to “doorman” btw) was not used to the back breaking labor that it took to make it here. It took an EXCEPTIONAL person to make it AMERICA. There were no guarantees other than you can come here and reap the rewards of your labor. The EXCEPTIONAL AMERICANS who came here and succeeded were truly exceptional people. And those people would prosper and in time become world leaders because of the economic growth created by unbridled capitalism. But capitalism requires work. It requires a world that needs blue collar labor, and there’s a crying need, and the jobs are sitting open while these people buy into Bernie’s sermons: “you’re not a failure because you’re 33, have no trade, no degree. It’s not your fault. It’s the 1%’s fault!” These people think they’re victimized because they made poor decisions. Bernie gives them a boogey man, the 1%, and all of a sudden all the decisions that they themselves made that contributed to their lack of success become the fault of the 1%. “Yeah, it’s not my fault I have $60,000 in student loans, a useless degree, and no 6-figure salary!” Then Bernie promises them their neighbors lawn chair and they become “socialists.” Were no longer exceptional. I blame it on decadence and a strong change in demographics. I know that’s controversial but I have a very good reasons for believing it. Immigrants have watered down on ‘can do’ attitude. That doesn’t mean I hate immigrants, but I’m calling it like I see it. 

[The_Dude]

12 hours ago, SoCoBills said:

I couldn't disagree with everything in this thread more. The main argument that seems to be perpetuated here is that there is no such thing as Democratic Socialism, it's just Socialism. This argument is complete and utter garbage. We don't live in a world of absolutes. We currently have a mixed economy and if Bernie had his way we would continue to have a mixed economy.

 

There are a couple of major differences though:

 

1. Democratic Socialism seeks to guarantee minimum standards of living. This is not to create absolute wealth equality but to reduce the insane levels of inequality. Examples of this are: Social Security, Single Payer Healthcare & Affordable access to education.

 

2. What happens to capitalism when the economy gets too big, businesses get too rich and corporate consolidation crestes the illusion of choice that isn't there and the illusion of competition that doesn't exist? Well, we have what we do now. Big business like Wall Start, Pharma, etc lobby politicians and laws, loopholes, tax breaks etc get passed which represent the best interests of the wealthiest in the country and not the actual people in it. This is why Bernie wants to overturn Citizens United and relentlessly harps on wealth inequality. We have crony capitalism in this country in a rigged economy. 

 

 

Another thing I want to set straight here is that "Bernie Bros" as you referred to them, are not lazy people looking for handouts.  This is propaganda. These are not indoctrinated youth. These are people in a generation that are entering a job market and economy with dropping standards of living, longer hours, higher costs and stagnant wages.

 

These are people who see tax reform promised to help the middle class have 80% of tax breaks go to the top 1%. The IRS already is reporting refunds are decreased by about 17% so far. Not for Amazon or Netflix though. I paid more in taxes this year than either of this multi-billion annual income earning corporations did. Corruption corruption corruption.

 

Prescription drug prices in this country are insane. The price of a vile of insulin went up from about $27 to well over $300 and that's for people with insurance. Did you know the leading cause of bankruptcy in the USA is medical debt? Did you know this is also the case among people with solid health insurance?

 

How are we going to pay for all this "FREE STUFF"?? That's always the next question I see mockingly asked and it's absolutely mindless. For one, the only people calling it free stuff are Republicans as a way of pretending it's a pipe dream. Secondly, people want a one line answer for something that isn't a one line issue. For one, it isn't free. Taxes will go up for everyone a bit and I stress a bit BUT most if not all Americans (except billionaires) will save more in prescription drug, insurance and copays each year by a wide margin than they will lose in tax increases. A 70% marginal tax rate on income earned annually starting with your 10 millionth dollar earned and up will pay for it alone. What you also don't factor is the trillions of dollars is costs Republicans report this will cost isn't net increase, it's total. A Republican study actually showed it would cost the country, net, less than our current system.

 

Next I hear - oh but you'll die waiting for Healthcare and have month long lines to see a doctor. This is not even close to true. Every other major country on Earth uses this. USA is ranked 20 or worse in medical outcomes and life expectancy and quality of health care.  People aren't rushing from Canada into the United States for medicine or procedures. In fact, people are consistently trying to do the opposite.

 

As for college education. The degree now holds less power and yet the price has astronomically increased. We have colleges giving massive salaries to top administrative officials and sports coaches and sports directors like they are coaching in the NFL or something and students are paying for it. I spoke of medical debt being the leading cause of bankruptcy well, guess what else is right up there? I recently read the story of a dude that worked his ass off through law school and works for a prestigious firm and lives at home with his parents in a small room with a twin sized bed because he's in such massive debt due to student loans. 

 

Let's be real, the government hasn't represented the will of the people for a long time. 100% of Americans could want a bill and it wouldn't pass Congress if big money lobby's didn't want it to. Is that democracy at work?

 

1. I believe a persons work ethic should maintain their minimum standard of living, sir, not the government. If a person follows these three rules they will never have to succumb to the madness of Bernism: 1- Finish high school. 2- Don't have kids before marriage. 3- Pursue a trade or a profitable degree, not something stupid like History. If a person follows those three rules they'll be middle class. Hell, I'm upper middle class and I don't have a high school degree. 

 

2. You're suggesting we're in a new gilded age and while not completely incorrect, and while it doesn't need to be unaddressed, your point is moot to the average Joe when there are thousands of good paying jobs that people are not pursuing because they require hard work. The economy isn't rigged. Even a poor boy like me is allowed to compete. I took my last $5k and started my company with no safety net and now I am doing well. It took daring and there was no guarantee.

 

3. Bernie bros are the entitled people who are the product of their entitled upbringing. Yes, things are a bit different now than they were in the 60's. You can't go work 40 years at the local factory and retire with a pension. Pensions were killing shareholders and so that way of life went away. The world waits on nobody, learn to adapt. Bernie bros are pansies. 

 

4. I am NOT a finance guy, but this '80% of tax breaks go to the 1%' is like, 'well duh.' Does the factory worker have PP&E to write off? I mean its understanding that the more assets a company has the more depreciation they can find. And rich people have good accountants, wouldn't you if you were rich?

 

5. The cost of medicine in this country is an issue. You're right there. But what will happen if Bernie "fixes it?" Because most medical breakthroughs happen in the US because of our blend of capitalism and medicine. Its estimated to cost $2.7 billion to bring a new drug to market. When Bernie makes that unprofitable, there goes investment. Tread lightly and carefully. If I were dictator I would have a team of medical professionals and economists working on this. There is no quick answer, but Bernie will rush to one. 

 

6. My private healthcare wont cover my rotator cuff tear because its preexisting. The VA will. It's March 2019. I started the process in October of 2017. I'm now to the point where my next VA appointment is the one where they "may" finally schedule the surgery. Ya socialized medicine. Tread lightly, be careful what you wish for. Also, the countries that provide socialized medicine dont have our necessary defense bill. We can NOT cut defense. 

 

7. I support free community college for certain degrees. Any trade school should be free. Why? I believe in investing in Americans. Give them the tools and they'll move mountains. But I'll be damnded if a degree in African Studies should be free. We have to be smart with our resources. 

 

Bernyism is anti-Americanism. 

[Gary M]

15 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It's kind of funny, but the voters most influenced by this obvious right wing campaign to scream socialism are people receiving socialist security. They are socialists! 

 

 

 

Like they had a choice!!!!

13 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Yes...but you're overstating it.  She didn't get them in sixth grade.  She got them from college econ and sociology professors.  

 

But she was taught not to question ideas and to negate contrary opinions before that.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Gary M

[RochesterRob]

  While Adam Smith, capitalism, etc, are taught in college that does not mean that the professors or TA's believe in those people or ideas as a way to run a nation.  

[Tiberius]

Just now, RochesterRob said:

  While Adam Smith, capitalism, etc, are taught in college that does not mean that the professors or TA's believe in those people or ideas as a way to run a nation.  

Adam Smith was a big advocate for free trade, just like Obama 

[The_Dude]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Adam Smith was a big advocate for free trade, just like Obama 

 

Yeah, Obama wasn't the socialist many believed him to be. I wish he was the leftiest of the leftists these days but sadly Obama is now way too moderate for the commie loving left.

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Adam Smith was a big advocate for free trade, just like Obama 

  Adam Smith was not for pirating technology.  The concept of subsidies was pretty much unheard of in Smith's time.  But you keep comparing apples to oranges if it makes you happy.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, The_Dude said:

 

Yeah, Obama wasn't the socialist many believed him to be. I wish he was the leftiest of the leftists these days but sadly Obama is now way too moderate for the commie loving left.

Oh man! That happened faster than I thought it would. So Obamacare is no longer the great socialist devil, huh? Wow!!! This shows how the sh it throwing is all histrionics. You guys have just moved on to the next mud slinging yelping and are leaving the "Socialist Dogs" of years past to lay sleeping. Anti-Slavery, Medicare, Social Security, and Obamacare are ok now, its the Green New Deal that is the battleground now, until it won't be and you guys will accept it! And you will!! Bi tches! ?

[RochesterRob]

3 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Yeah, Obama wasn't the socialist many believed him to be. I wish he was the leftiest of the leftists these days but sadly Obama is now way too moderate for the commie loving left.

  Obama could have been following the old communist mantra of "using their own methods to ultimately defeat them."  So that does not mean that he was a free market lover but saw bad trade treaties as a way to bring defeat sooner at home.

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Adam Smith was not for pirating technology.  The concept of subsidies was pretty much unheard of in Smith's time.  But you keep comparing apples to oranges if it makes you happy.

Free trade is free trade