Democratic Socialists: You Have No Case

[The_Dude]

26 minutes ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

The simplicity of all your arguments has a certain appeal. 

 

[Something is ***** up, ergo] Muslims!

 

The Deep State dominates the conclusion in this proof here so often that I find your  reasoning refreshing. Thank you and you should chat with LaDexter. He has a similar clean bit of reasoning. 

 

Hes the jew hater. There is nothing outside of antiquity that validates jew hating. I love all peaceful peoples. Now, for those who don’t know, Jews were the Muslims of the ancient world. I can sort of lecture on that a bit. 

 

As for my observations being simple, they are. Because history is simple. It’s all very simple so long as you understand people and their motivators. 

 

The deep state nonsense is for folks with overactive imaginations. I used to work for the government. The government is incapable of pulling off conspiracies. 

[Tiberius]

It's kind of funny, but the voters most influenced by this obvious right wing campaign to scream socialism are people receiving socialist security. They are socialists! 

 

Dude is pushing right wing talking points...

[Doc Brown]

46 minutes ago, sabrecrazed said:

I think it's funny that nut jobs on the left dismiss it as an impossibility. 

 

46 minutes ago, Foxx said:

they are not necessarily educating them. there is a difference between schooling someone and educating them.

 

 

At Kindergarten?

[sabrecrazed]

Have you met transplant? 

[3rdnlng]

Hmmmmmmmn, socialism is to Social Security as the reserves are to Federal Reserve. Some people don't seem to understand that SS was/is paid for by the employer and the employee or in some cases like mine I paid the full amount for 30 years. Getty ashitty return on my money is socialism?

[The_Dude]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It's kind of funny, but the voters most influenced by this obvious right wing campaign to scream socialism are people receiving socialist security. They are socialists! 

 

Dude is pushing right wing talking points...

 

Heres the thing. I haven’t been posting on here that long. 

 

I stopped counting ting but I gave Bernie over $500 in campaign contributions last go round. Serious. I’m a two time Obama voter. 

 

What changed? A thorough study of Russia, and Rome. 

 

Before i I become a Romaholic, I had only studied Bronze Age peoples. I thought antiquity would shine no light on my quest to prove Bernienomics correct. 

 

What ended up happening was the exact opposite to my surprise. My autopsy of Rome left me shaken. It remolded my politics. My study of the 20th century convinced me Bernie is a dangerous demagogue albeit with good intentions. 

 

Now, there is value in social programs. Personally I see the need for social security but I would organize it differently. As in the money you put in and employer contributions go to a plan that the individual picks that is run by a private company. 

 

 

 

I understand the need to subsidize the grain for the plebs....but when the grain doll became free....oh what a slippery slope. 

 

The_Dude argues nobody’s talking points but his own.  I’m my own man. How many times have you heard me bash Trump? 

 

I believe that through studying history and reverse engineering it, that is the only way to form political thought. 

 

Now theres a lot out of the 20th century that isn’t settled science. One such program that I wish there was more academic work on was Mussolini’s “corporations” which fascinated me economically because he won Times Man of the Year (1923) which I would win 80 years later (true) for it. The economic success of it was brilliant. Sustainable? I don’t know.  

 

If i had the time and money I’d honestly research it to write a book. 

 

So, while not everything is settled, socialism is. Let it go, man. 

 

And BTW, in Tiberius’ day (Grachus, not the Claudian) Rome was far different than America and the oppression they faced was real. Not like the oppression you modern liberals pretends exists. 

12 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Hmmmmmmmn, socialism is to Social Security as the reserves are to Federal Reserve. Some people don't seem to understand that SS was/is paid for by the employer and the employee or in some cases like mine I paid the full amount for 30 years. Getty ashitty return on my money is socialism?

 

You old bastard. 

[3rdnlng]

21 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Heres the thing. I haven’t been posting on here that long. 

 

I stopped counting ting but I gave Bernie over $500 in campaign contributions last go round. Serious. I’m a two time Obama voter. 

 

What changed? A thorough study of Russia, and Rome. 

 

Before i I become a Romaholic, I had only studied Bronze Age peoples. I thought antiquity would shine no light on my quest to prove Bernienomics correct. 

 

What ended up happening was the exact opposite to my surprise. My autopsy of Rome left me shaken. It remolded my politics. My study of the 20th century convinced me Bernie is a dangerous demagogue albeit with good intentions. 

 

Now, there is value in social programs. Personally I see the need for social security but I would organize it differently. As in the money you put in and employer contributions go to a plan that the individual picks that is run by a private company. 

 

 

 

I understand the need to subsidize the grain for the plebs....but when the grain doll became free....oh what a slippery slope. 

 

The_Dude argues nobody’s talking points but his own.  I’m my own man. How many times have you heard me bash Trump? 

 

I believe that through studying history and reverse engineering it, that is the only way to form political thought. 

 

Now theres a lot out of the 20th century that isn’t settled science. One such program that I wish there was more academic work on was Mussolini’s “corporations” which fascinated me economically because he won Times Man of the Year (1923) which I would win 80 years later (true) for it. The economic success of it was brilliant. Sustainable? I don’t know.  

 

If i had the time and money I’d honestly research it to write a book. 

 

So, while not everything is settled, socialism is. Let it go, man. 

 

And BTW, in Tiberius’ day (Grachus, not the Claudian) Rome was far different than America and the oppression they faced was real. Not like the oppression you modern liberals pretends exists. 

 

You old bastard. 

I could still kick your ass.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

I get how comparing us with Nordic countries comparing apples to oranges (although it's interesting the article only focused on the corporate tax rates).  I just find it funny that nut jobs on the right think union grade school teachers are indoctrinating their students to embrace socialism.

OK Doc...I'm dying to find out where YOU think a twenty-something ditsy bartender gets these ideas?  Was she born with them?  No...she was indoctrinated from a young age by teachers, and later professors.

[The_Dude]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

I could still kick your ass.

 

 

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

OK Doc...I'm dying to find out where YOU think a twenty-something ditsy bartender gets these ideas?  Was she born with them?  No...she was indoctrinated from a young age by teachers, and later professors.

 

Yes...but you're overstating it.  She didn't get them in sixth grade.  She got them from college econ and sociology professors.  

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Yes...but you're overstating it.  She didn't get them in sixth grade.  She got them from college econ and sociology professors.  

My wife is a teacher. I beg to differ. The indoctrination starts way before college. The staff lunch room is a hostile workplace for a conservative educator at most schools.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

OK Doc...I'm dying to find out where YOU think a twenty-something ditsy bartender gets these ideas?  Was she born with them?  No...she was indoctrinated from a young age by teachers, and later professors.

How the hell should I know?  Were her parents radical?  What environment did she grow up in?  It's much more likely she got it from a professor than her grade school teachers.  Maybe Bernie Sanders got her interested in politics.

[SoCoBills]

I couldn't disagree with everything in this thread more. The main argument that seems to be perpetuated here is that there is no such thing as Democratic Socialism, it's just Socialism. This argument is complete and utter garbage. We don't live in a world of absolutes. We currently have a mixed economy and if Bernie had his way we would continue to have a mixed economy.

 

There are a couple of major differences though:

 

1. Democratic Socialism seeks to guarantee minimum standards of living. This is not to create absolute wealth equality but to reduce the insane levels of inequality. Examples of this are: Social Security, Single Payer Healthcare & Affordable access to education.

 

2. What happens to capitalism when the economy gets too big, businesses get too rich and corporate consolidation crestes the illusion of choice that isn't there and the illusion of competition that doesn't exist? Well, we have what we do now. Big business like Wall Start, Pharma, etc lobby politicians and laws, loopholes, tax breaks etc get passed which represent the best interests of the wealthiest in the country and not the actual people in it. This is why Bernie wants to overturn Citizens United and relentlessly harps on wealth inequality. We have crony capitalism in this country in a rigged economy. 

 

 

Another thing I want to set straight here is that "Bernie Bros" as you referred to them, are not lazy people looking for handouts.  This is propaganda. These are not indoctrinated youth. These are people in a generation that are entering a job market and economy with dropping standards of living, longer hours, higher costs and stagnant wages.

 

These are people who see tax reform promised to help the middle class have 80% of tax breaks go to the top 1%. The IRS already is reporting refunds are decreased by about 17% so far. Not for Amazon or Netflix though. I paid more in taxes this year than either of this multi-billion annual income earning corporations did. Corruption corruption corruption.

 

Prescription drug prices in this country are insane. The price of a vile of insulin went up from about $27 to well over $300 and that's for people with insurance. Did you know the leading cause of bankruptcy in the USA is medical debt? Did you know this is also the case among people with solid health insurance?

 

How are we going to pay for all this "FREE STUFF"?? That's always the next question I see mockingly asked and it's absolutely mindless. For one, the only people calling it free stuff are Republicans as a way of pretending it's a pipe dream. Secondly, people want a one line answer for something that isn't a one line issue. For one, it isn't free. Taxes will go up for everyone a bit and I stress a bit BUT most if not all Americans (except billionaires) will save more in prescription drug, insurance and copays each year by a wide margin than they will lose in tax increases. A 70% marginal tax rate on income earned annually starting with your 10 millionth dollar earned and up will pay for it alone. What you also don't factor is the trillions of dollars is costs Republicans report this will cost isn't net increase, it's total. A Republican study actually showed it would cost the country, net, less than our current system.

 

Next I hear - oh but you'll die waiting for Healthcare and have month long lines to see a doctor. This is not even close to true. Every other major country on Earth uses this. USA is ranked 20 or worse in medical outcomes and life expectancy and quality of health care.  People aren't rushing from Canada into the United States for medicine or procedures. In fact, people are consistently trying to do the opposite.

 

As for college education. The degree now holds less power and yet the price has astronomically increased. We have colleges giving massive salaries to top administrative officials and sports coaches and sports directors like they are coaching in the NFL or something and students are paying for it. I spoke of medical debt being the leading cause of bankruptcy well, guess what else is right up there? I recently read the story of a dude that worked his ass off through law school and works for a prestigious firm and lives at home with his parents in a small room with a twin sized bed because he's in such massive debt due to student loans. 

 

Let's be real, the government hasn't represented the will of the people for a long time. 100% of Americans could want a bill and it wouldn't pass Congress if big money lobby's didn't want it to. Is that democracy at work?

Edited March 6, 2019 by SoCoBills

[Azalin]

5 hours ago, SoCoBills said:

 

Let's be real, the government hasn't represented the will of the people for a long time. 100% of Americans could want a bill and it wouldn't pass Congress if big money lobby's didn't want it to. Is that democracy at work?

 

 

Let's be realer: no form of socialism will ever have greater representation of the will of the people than will that of a free market, representative republic. If the government hasn't represented the will of the people for a long time, why would you ever want to empower them to the point where they could impose their idea of fairness upon the public in whatever manner they see fit. Contrary to what appears to be a growing opinion among some in the the electorate, the authority required to establish most socialist reforms is not permitted constitutionally in a representative republic.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

My wife is a teacher. I beg to differ. The indoctrination starts way before college. The staff lunch room is a hostile workplace for a conservative educator at most schools.

 

Try being an antiunion teacher.

[Foxx]

8 hours ago, SoCoBills said:

I couldn't disagree with everything in this thread more. The main argument that seems to be perpetuated here is that there is no such thing as Democratic Socialism, ...

yeah, no. everything could be achieved with one simple maneuver. remove the lobbying/lobbyist/money from the congressional halls. if and when that was done, we might actually return to a republic and the critters that reside there might actually do the work of the people.  

 

lastly, isn't Bernie the walking and talking epitome of a contradiction?

Edited March 6, 2019 by Foxx

[SoCoBills]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

yeah, no. everything could be achieved with one simple maneuver. remove the lobbying/lobbyist/money from the congressional halls. if and when that was done, we might actually return to a republic and the critters that reside there might actually do the work of the people.  

 

lastly, isn't Bernie the walking and talking epitome of a contradiction?

 

How is Bernie a contradiction. I've seen a few BS arguments about this so I'm wondering what pretense you are basing this claim on.

[SoCoBills]

3 hours ago, Azalin said:

 

Let's be realer: no form of socialism will ever have greater representation of the will of the people than will that of a free market, representative republic. If the government hasn't represented the will of the people for a long time, why would you ever want to empower them to the point where they could impose their idea of fairness upon the public in whatever manner they see fit. Contrary to what appears to be a growing opinion among some in the the electorate, the authority required to establish most socialist reforms is not permitted constitutionally in a representative republic.

 

When the constitution was written a free market made sense. Competition, hard work, supply and demand and the American Dream. Now however, regulation is necessary to prevent corporate greed from ruining the economy for the benefit of the richest in the country. Our Republic doesn't represent the will of the people and that is a 100% fact. Studies have shown this. The will of the people has 0% influence on whether or not laws are passed in Congress. How many more times can we pay for bailouts? Banks are already back to handing out subprime mortgages. 

 

Again you go to the "socialism" is evil type argument but when social principals are being used to establish minimum standards of living, when money is removed from the political equation and regulation of big business creates real competition as opposed to corporate consolidation with all competitors under the same umbrella of a few parent corporations price fixing the market to suffocate consumers....then and only then in an economy this big can the will of the people and not the elite be represented.

 

Capitalism unchecked in this modern era is all about greed, corporate consolidation, monopolizing markets and finding loopholes in laws and tax Haven's to get the rich, richer and richer. No longer does increased worker productivity equal increased wages. No longer can most families afford to have the typical old school family dynamic where Dad works and Mom is at home raising the kids and keeping the home. Now both parents must work full time, kids are raised by daycares or babysitters or if you are lucky, family members while you are at work.

 

People call this generation lazy and entitled but this generation has it way harder than generations before it.  Paychecks don't go as far as stagnant pay with increasing costs of living continues to shrink the middle class.

 

I'm sorry I understand the fear of calling things Socialism and change being scary to some but establishing social minimums of healthcare and education as human rights is not the same thing as the government taking control of the entire economy with Socialism in the fear mongering ways Fox News pundits would have you believe.

 

If you look at the corruption and greed of pharmaceutical and health insurance companies alone and really researched it you'd be all in on single payer. These other countries rank way higher in quality and pricing than we do. People are legit dying because they cannot afford to get healthcare they need to live and these are including people with health insurance.

Edited March 6, 2019 by SoCoBills

[GG]

3 minutes ago, SoCoBills said:

 

 

If you look at the corruption and greed of pharmaceutical and health insurance companies alone and really researched it you'd be all in on single payer. 

 

Funny how corruption and greed only exist in highly competitive private enterprises, but never ever in government or monopolies created by the government.

 

That's why you're an idiot.

[BeginnersMind]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

yeah, no. everything could be achieved with one simple maneuver. remove the lobbying/lobbyist/money from the congressional halls. if and when that was done, we might actually return to a republic and the critters that reside there might actually do the work of the people.  

 

Nothing would be so simply solved. The reps need spines more than anything. Lobbyists can be helpful to groups of people who can’t get to DC to have their voices heard. If I’m the father of a crippled (this word is  now PC according to my daughter. Though it still feels awkward) kid, and I live in the minority of people whose kids are disab—crippled, having someone who is paid to do research about the problem, who has DC connections and can advocate on my behalf, is nice. Because I have the time to write a $500 check, and make some calls, but the rest of the time I’m working to provide for my family. The lobbyist helps me. 

 

Lobby reform, surely, is worth something. But it’s only a piece until the Congresspeople take their own reins and do their job with less interference from them.