Is an Ivy League education much better than public universities/colleges?

[row_33]

I look at it that many enter Ivy with their life secured by family connections, easily more than half, so it makes no diff to them as it’s a natural progression

 

Some  raise up from nothing if they keep showing their genius, but that’s a hard road to maintain and you can’t slip without the safety net of the first paragraph

 

[Sundancer]

On 3/4/2019 at 2:43 PM, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Depends on the public U, which can be a "public Ivy" like Berkeley, Michigan, UNC, Binghamton

one of these things does not belong here...

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Sundancer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 3/2/2019 at 12:43 PM, Another Fan said:

I was talking with someone this morning about college.  We were talking about how in New Jersey Rutgers the state university is just a big pain in the ass in many ways.  There’s even a nickname RU screw for it.  

 

Then she mentioned Ivy League schools are easier than Rutgers.  In the sense that 99% of students graduate there versus 50% at Rutgers.  I mean yes obviously it’s much harder to get into an Ivy League school but with those graduation rates it seems the teachers want the students to succeed.  Large public universities that’s often not the case, professors could care less.  

 

Education wise are those schools any better though?  Seems like it’s just a name  

 

I think like many other things, It Depends.  There are reports of professors and TAs at Harvard being pressured to inflate grades, for example.
 

On the other hand, Cornell as an Ivy has a reputation "easiest to get in, hardest to get out" because the professors take pride in no grade inflation and maintaining a high degree of difficulty in the coursework.  [Edit: I see the Senator has the same gouge]

 

Most state schools provide an excellent education.  The graduation rates are lower because they accept a more diverse group of kids with more disparate preparation, whereas the Ivies can pick and choose the kids they believe will succeed there, but some of the finest, best trained scientists of my acquaintance attended state colleges.

The thing about Ivy schools is the connections and networking that the kids from wealthy families form there.  It's not an accident that as Lurker said, a small percentage of graduates form a disproportionate percentage of the leaders.  But that doesn't mean that if you send your kid to an Ivy vs. a great state school, YOUR kid will necessarily form the same connections and networking.  There are cliques within Ivies, too.

 

[Another Fan]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think like many other things, It Depends.  There are reports of professors and TAs at Harvard being pressured to inflate grades, for example.
 

On the other hand, Cornell as an Ivy has a reputation "easiest to get in, hardest to get out" because the professors take pride in no grade inflation and maintaining a high degree of difficulty in the coursework.  [Edit: I see the Senator has the same gouge]

 

Most state schools provide an excellent education.  The graduation rates are lower because they accept a more diverse group of kids with more disparate preparation, whereas the Ivies can pick and choose the kids they believe will succeed there, but some of the finest, best trained scientists of my acquaintance attended state colleges.

The thing about Ivy schools is the connections and networking that the kids from wealthy families form there.  It's not an accident that as Lurker said, a small percentage of graduates form a disproportionate percentage of the leaders.  But that doesn't mean that if you send your kid to an Ivy vs. a great state school, YOUR kid will necessarily form the same connections and networking.  There are cliques within Ivies, too.

 

Good stuff there.  I forgot even starting this thread until I got your quote!  

 

I think as in everything it's what you're willing to work/make of things.  This is one of my favorite motivational clips

 

 

[Gray Beard]

I’m reluctant to post this...  I’m likely to get flamed.

My daughter went to UConn for undergrad and Cornell for grad. At UConn she got a BA in German and a BS in Chem. Engineering. The BA in German was so she could have a semester abroad, which is a big deal these days.  At Cornell she got a MS and PhD in Chem. Engineering. 
She immediately got a “good job” at Intel doing research in semiconductor physics.  She hated it there.  No camaraderie, cut throat competition, 60 hour work weeks, no priority on work/home life balance, layoffs.

She decided that this was not a good situation for starting a family.  Her husband has a very good job, so shortly after the birth of my granddaughter she was able to quit, get a MS in Education, and now she’s a high school physics teacher in a middle class suburb.  Loves it.  Best move she ever made. 

[row_33]

3 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

I’m reluctant to post this...  I’m likely to get flamed.

My daughter went to UConn for undergrad and Cornell for grad. At UConn she got a BA in German and a BS in Chem. Engineering. The BA in German was so she could have a semester abroad, which is a big deal these days.  At Cornell she got a MS and PhD in Chem. Engineering. 
She immediately got a “good job” at Intel doing research in semiconductor physics.  She hated it there.  No camaraderie, cut throat competition, 60 hour work weeks, no priority on work/home life balance, layoffs.

She decided that this was not a good situation for starting a family.  Her husband has a very good job, so shortly after the birth of my granddaughter she was able to quit, get a MS in Education, and now she’s a high school physics teacher in a middle class suburb.  Loves it.  Best move she ever made. 

good stuff

 

cant say she didn’t try her best

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

I’m reluctant to post this...  I’m likely to get flamed.

My daughter went to UConn for undergrad and Cornell for grad. At UConn she got a BA in German and a BS in Chem. Engineering. The BA in German was so she could have a semester abroad, which is a big deal these days.  At Cornell she got a MS and PhD in Chem. Engineering. 
She immediately got a “good job” at Intel doing research in semiconductor physics.  She hated it there.  No camaraderie, cut throat competition, 60 hour work weeks, no priority on work/home life balance, layoffs.

She decided that this was not a good situation for starting a family.  Her husband has a very good job, so shortly after the birth of my granddaughter she was able to quit, get a MS in Education, and now she’s a high school physics teacher in a middle class suburb.  Loves it.  Best move she ever made. 

 

You should be flamed in no way whatsoever for the great fortune of your daughter finding her true calling. She prepared herself well for whatever may come to be, and she found it. That is the biggest win you can have in your work life. 

 

I changed careers and got out of banking after a couple decades. I was inspired by a friend/acquaintance from a husband and wife attorney team. He gave up law, went back to school and then taught high school history. He LOVES it, as did I after the change. Life is too short to hate your job. Find your passion and it’s no longer “work”. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

I’m reluctant to post this...  I’m likely to get flamed.

My daughter went to UConn for undergrad and Cornell for grad. At UConn she got a BA in German and a BS in Chem. Engineering. The BA in German was so she could have a semester abroad, which is a big deal these days.  At Cornell she got a MS and PhD in Chem. Engineering. 
She immediately got a “good job” at Intel doing research in semiconductor physics.  She hated it there.  No camaraderie, cut throat competition, 60 hour work weeks, no priority on work/home life balance, layoffs.

She decided that this was not a good situation for starting a family.  Her husband has a very good job, so shortly after the birth of my granddaughter she was able to quit, get a MS in Education, and now she’s a high school physics teacher in a middle class suburb.  Loves it.  Best move she ever made. 

 

I dunno why you should get flamed...it's a point that many companies play lip service (or not even that) to "work life balance" while maintaining a work environment that effectively precludes this.  I'm glad your daughter is happy in her 2nd career, but I'm also sure she's a very smart cookie and it's Intel's loss that their work environment was too toxic to retain her.

[row_33]

Chem Eng with a German minor, probably took Organic Chem for electives....

 

that generation keeps getting lazier, I mean WTF!!!!

[The Senator]

11 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Hopefully, Sagan was present at most of the lectures.  My friend told me that he was able to take a Sagan course (don't remember the title anymore) and Sagan did perhaps five lectures total and office hours were few and far between.  Trying to remember who taught Intro American History to 1865 while I was there during the 1980's.

 

Your friend speaks the truth - Sagan spent more time on Johnny Carson's couch than in the lecture hall.

.

 

[RochesterRob]

3 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

Your friend speaks the truth - Sagan spent more time on Johnny Carson's couch than in the lecture hall.

.

 

  If I had an 8AM class I would sometimes see him in the Triphammer-Thurston-Waite area around 7:45 driving something like a black Saab.  My understanding was that Sagan did a fair amount of holing up if he was in town.  He could be in his office but it was closed off to general student traffic.  Have a problem then go see the TA's.

[row_33]

10 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

Your friend speaks the truth - Sagan spent more time on Johnny Carson's couch than in the lecture hall.

.

 

 

Kissinger was loyal to his lectures, assigned 1500 pages a week for Master Seminars

 

[KD in CA]

At the risk of veering this into PPP-land, there was an op-ed with an interesting series of graphs in the NY Times this week about the rising rates of death from alcohol, drugs and suicide among those without a college degree, with the thesis that the root cause was economic decline.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/06/opinion/working-class-death-rate.html

 

[row_33]

1 minute ago, KD in CA said:

At the risk of veering this into PPP-land, there was an op-ed with an interesting series of graphs in the NY Times this week about the rising rates of death from alcohol, drugs and suicide among those without a college degree, with the thesis that the root cause was economic decline.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/06/opinion/working-class-death-rate.html

 

 

i assume those who feel the worst are the ones who had brains and didn't use them in school and then went on a stupid college spree racking up huge debt with a worthless degress

 

[Troll Toll]

3 hours ago, KD in CA said:

At the risk of veering this into PPP-land, there was an op-ed with an interesting series of graphs in the NY Times this week about the rising rates of death from alcohol, drugs and suicide among those without a college degree, with the thesis that the root cause was economic decline.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/06/opinion/working-class-death-rate.html

 

I’ll venture a guess that this has to do with the loss of manufacturing jobs and wage growth that hasn’t kept up with inflation.

[PromoTheRobot]

On 3/2/2019 at 2:22 PM, /dev/null said:

 

Ivy League educations are the epitome of the saying "its not what you know, it's who you know".  If you want to get into law, politics, or a path towards being a corporate executive the Ivy League is a good option

 

Otherwise public universities or small colleges provide better education and training.  I would hire a Penn St engineer over an ivy leaguer any day, and I'm just as comfortable at a doctor from the University of Toledo as I would be with an Ivy Leaguer

 

Apparently accountants from Southern New Hampshire University are held in high regard, so I've leaned. Their actual campus is in my town.

 

14 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

i assume those who feel the worst are the ones who had brains and didn't use them in school and then went on a stupid college spree racking up huge debt with a worthless degress

 

 

Are you saying my PhD in Feminist Lesbian History is worthless?

Edited March 11, 2020 by PromoTheRobot

[BigBillsFan]

It's getting to the point where everyone who is not in some form of empathetic job will struggle with employment in the next 20-25 years. The reactive changes to the future of the economy from automation will mean a lot of professions and degrees will be futures in depression just like laborers are now.

 

The uneducated middle-class is being forced out as labor value diminishes, but what happens when it happens to doctors and lawyers? It's coming. I use these technologies for my profession, they are frightening. They can do the work of journalists and financial advisors. A large number of articles you read online are written by algos, not people.

 

The Luddite arguments have come full circle where man can't adapt to the changes too fast and complex for ordinary living. One thing is certain and that is the future is so uncertain no one can prepare for it.

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

It's getting to the point where everyone who is not in some form of empathetic job will struggle with employment in the next 20-25 years. The reactive changes to the future of the economy from automation will mean a lot of professions and degrees will be futures in depression just like laborers are now.

 

The uneducated middle-class is being forced out as labor value diminishes, but what happens when it happens to doctors and lawyers? It's coming. I use these technologies for my profession, they are frightening. They can do the work of journalists and financial advisors. A large number of articles you read online are written by algos, not people.

 

The Luddite arguments have come full circle where man can't adapt to the changes too fast and complex for ordinary living. One thing is certain and that is the future is so uncertain no one can prepare for it.

  AI will be the death knell for wide spread income in the legal and medical fields.  

 

  The regressive classes i.e. Mennonites, Amish, etc. have their own problems as commodity prices and over supply have them operating at virtually no profit even with their labor intensive minimal salary mode of operation.  Harmony has been replaced with bitterness as the concentration in any given area is too great given the resources.  More communities see neighbors as unwanted competitors versus being brothers in a religious context.  How do I know?  I know people in Yates County.  

 

  It's going to be a struggle for humanity to survive the next 50 years.  Feelings of hopelessness, bitterness, and jealousy will pervade society for a while.  People will feel the need to act out through criminal acts such as assault.  I normally consider myself a natural optimist but this feeling of bleakness has been setting in for a while now.  It will be better when the dust settles on the growth of technology but humanity is in for a lot of short term pain.

[Kirby Jackson]

On 3/2/2019 at 1:05 PM, plenzmd1 said:

You make connections for life at Ivys...worth a ton. 

This is the value of the Ivy League schools. The education there is as good as anywhere. The connections and relationships are far beyond everywhere.

[row_33]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is the value of the Ivy League schools. The education there is as good as anywhere. The connections and relationships are far beyond everywhere.

but most already have these connections from their birth

 

dont hate yourself because you missed out on the fantasy of maybe meeting important people to make your life enjoyable