Calling it now: Zay Jones will not be on the week 1 roster.

[Alphadawg7]

58 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Chargers.

Alpha, concerning Zay Jones future you got to admit that a lot has changed since you started this thread.

Taking out the opinions you or others may have concerning Zay's past performance, it is now Training Camp/Preseason time.

 

The main result of your OP was that Zay Jones would be the guy Beane/McDermott would want to trade.

While that still may happen I think the odds diminish on each passing day.

The WRs working with Josh Allen are doing so to create consistency.  Having our young QB work all summer with a

supposed "Lame Duck" WR makes no sense at all to me.  Personally I would be upset with Beane if he traded Jones to let's say

NYG a week before cuts.  I think JA would be too.

 

This thread will probably go on until the final cuts but most would probably now agree the Zay Jones will be on the roster to start the season.

He will also probably be in the top 3 though that's not carved in stone.

 

Definitely agree things are different now than when I started this thread in early days of the offseason.  I have been quite complimentary to him in other threads over the offseason talking about some of the positive things.  I remain in the camp I want to see it on the field when the action ratchets up over the preseason, but he deserves credit for working hard this offseason to do the things to try and raise his game.  

 

At the end of the day, there are only a few guys on this roster I would say have 0% chance to be traded this preseason...Zay for me is not on that list and could still be a trade target for a team in need of a WR if they get the right offer.  But admittedly, that is definitely less likely today than when I started this thread given he had a good offseason, and thats good for all of us if he puts it together this year.

 

Someone made a good point earlier too about how Brown is now going to draw the top corner and Cole has to be seriously accounted for too.  That could make life a lot easier for Zay and give him the room to work and make an impact.  Very excited to see this team on the field in live action, both sides of the ball.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was "on the fence" about the Bills keeping Tyrod.  If it was really McD wanted to see a season with TT for himself - it was a strange choice given his OC and the system/play calling they tried to run.  IMO they should have either tailored the system (see what I did there?) to TT's strengths, or parted ways.  

 

I felt it was a stopgap because McDermott is smart enough to know he will "ride or die" as HC according to the quality of his QB, and he did not want to trust his QB draft to Whaley's scouting, knowing Whaley was the lamest of ducks. 

 

But if the plan was to use TT as a stopgap before drafting a QB, it would have made sense to move on that year, even if it meant we were starting scraps at QB - because we would have drafted higher.  McDermott must have had his reasons - maybe he wanted to give the team a realistic chance to win if the D did their part, in order to start rebuilding the culture?  I don't know.  It was all very strange.

 

Good points here too.  Best part for me about Beane and McD is that they aren't going to sit around and try to force something thats not working.  They evaluate then they address, I love the direction of this team and organization right now.   

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Difference is Tyrod reached his ceiling. After a partial season, I don’t think we know yet what Allen’s ceiling is. Not bashing Tyrod, just facts. While Tyrod was here I cheered and hoped for more, he can’t do more. 

 

The thing about TT was he would flash moments where you felt there was more to get out of him.  Then simultaneously we would see some really stupid game management from the OC...I dont know if I have ever been as mad at an OC or coach as I had been during some of the TT era.  3rd and 1 with the #1 rushing attack in the NFL...oh lets throw a 30 yard pass with a running QB down the sideline instead.  So stupid.  3rd and 9, lets try a draw.  Was aggravating and it gave credence to the debate on is it TT, is it coaching, is it play calling, is it personnel, etc.  So it bought TT a little benefit of the doubt with a new staff given so much around him was not working too, but ultimately he was just as much part of the problem as all the other issues and his time was up.  

 

How far we have come since the Rex era...REX -  "Hey I got an idea, lets roll Mario Williams out on coverage all the time instead of letting him eat QB's like he was paid to do.  And then lets hire my loser brother whose never coached a good D in his life".  Thanks for the memories Rex lol

[Thurman#1]

On 7/30/2019 at 1:30 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Everything I wrote in that list was a fair assessment about his first two seasons, without question.  (Thurman#1 in Keanu as Ted voice: Dude ... question.) Not only are there questions, most of them look frankly wrong.

 

Does NOT mean he cant improve, never said he couldn't take a step forward.  I said I lack the confidence in him doing so and have questioned his mental toughness to be counted on as he hasn't dealt well with adversary at times and has come up short in key moments multiple times that directly affected our ability to win games in both seasons.  

 

But sorry, these are facts (Yeah, um, these are opinions, and not very solid ones at that ) about this first 2 full seasons:  Struggled BAD with catching, inconsistent on his routes, struggle mightily with press coverage, wildly inconsistent and would disappear for long stretches of games (22 of his 31 career games has less than 40 yards receiving despite starting all of them), has not been a guy defenses had to game plan for (has zero 100 yard games), struggled getting separation consistently (even been noted by the coaches over that 2 year span) (Nice spin, dude. You could be a press secretary. Yeah, it's been noted in that two-year span. Can you produce any such quote from the last half of last season when he improved? ... Yeah, didn't think so).  

 

He may or may not become a good player for us, he may or may not be on this roster week 1...and honestly, he is certainly trending in all the right directions, and thats good news for all of us.  I don't care if I was wrong in my doubts about his ability to step up, I really sincerely hope he proves to be a long term great player for us.  But there is no doubt my criticisms were warranted at the time they were made and accurate. (Again, this deserves the Keanu voice: Doubt. You keep pushing your wacky opinion as a fact. It very much was not. Those criticisms were on target when he was a rookie. But by the time you said them, they were already very late. He deserved them after his first year. Maybe even a bit early last year. Not since. You are right, of course, that he still needed to improve. But he'd already started trending very significantly upwards.)  He has one of the worst catch rates of any starter over the last 2 years in the NFL and has failed to make any real impact in about 75% of his career games including 2/3's of his 2018 games.  

 

I simply took my criticisms and tried to the future on how McD and Beane would address the WR position in the offseason and what I thought that could mean for Zay and made a bold prediction.  I knew the prediction was bold when I made it, but at the end of the day, I don't care if I am right, I would rather be wrong.  I bleed this team, and I just want the best roster on the field, and if he proves to be part of that group then thats great for all of us and I am cheering for that to happen. (This is all great. Your prediction was indeed bold. It wasn't so much your prediction that was so wacky, it was the stuff you said to support it.)

 

And with Josh's late season surge, Zay only had 2 good games in 6 with Josh.  There other 4 he was completely non existent, including the Pats game where I already explained he was shut down until the end of the game when Pats played softer D to chew the clock when game was out of reach.  So sorry, the 2nd half thing should really just say, he had 2 good games against a bad Fins team and that was about it over the last 6 games.  (Yeah, see, this is the wacky stuff, or some of it. He had four good games with Josh after Josh came back. And who the QB was is beside the point. You keep spinning this as if only games with Josh count.  You don't throw out good games by Zay because he was being thrown to by Barkley or Anderson. Any game where Zay improved is evidence of Zay's improvement. Your desperation to avoid looking at all the evidence, and your selection of trying to throw out only positive plays and games for Zay is very telling about the fact that you've got an iron in the fire somewhere.)

 

But its all good man, I knew there would be strong opposition to it when I wrote, and thats all great stuff.  You and others have had lots of great dialogue back and forth and enjoyed the ride.

 

 

Again, you continue to support a prediction that was always unlikely but well within possibility with arguments that are on the far side of wacky, far enough out there that Voyager and the Hubble are having trouble confirming sightings.

 

Yeah, he had problems in the first year, (not surprising with being a rookie who missed a lot of camp with an injury) but he simply improved a lot in the second half last year. Pretty much everyone but you and a few Zay haters on these boards acknowledges that.

 

 

Again, it's not your contention that's so whack-a-doodle. It's the way you've supported it with nutsy stuff.  For example: 

 

 

On 5/3/2019 at 8:45 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

So let me ask you again and others who have made this mythical claim of how Zay caught fire to end the season and found chemistry with Allen.  Where is this made up chemistry?  Where did he catch fire?  

 

 

Its nice to just say things, but its a whole other ball game to know if it really happened or not.  

 

 

I know. Amazing how that "mythical claim" caught on.

 

Beane's two cents:

 

"I think we all can agree that Zay Jones is trending up."

-  Brandon Beane in the 2018 post-season press conference

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/12/31/18163024/buffalo-bills-end-of-season-press-conference-open-thread-sean-mcdermott-brandon-beane-josh-allen

 

Golly, I sure wish we didn't have a GM who gets caught up in "mythical claims," and doesn't know "if it really happened or not," and somehow bought into the whole "myth" that Zay got better. He should talk to you about his evaluations about his players, because McDermott is obviously feeding him the wrong info.

 

Coincidentally, you kept referencing this same PC earlier in the thread, didn't you? About how Beane was saying good things about Duke? And yet you somehow forgot to mention him saying this about Zay ... Hmm. Hard to figure how that might have happened.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Thurman#1

[MJS]

On 7/29/2019 at 10:42 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

He’s on the Chargers.  And I wasn’t a Tyrod fan but this after the fact bashing is kinda pathetic.  I got told we couldn’t have a worse passing attack than we had with Tyrod.  Well we did last year.  Dude was far from an elite qb but he made good decisions and we won more games than we lost with him.  And not many qbs in our franchise’s history can say that.  And I wanted him replaced but this is just silly.

 

P.S. Not really directed at you. I just saw this and had to say something haha.

I'm right there with you. I certainly don't want Taylor back, but he was the best option at the time. He'll go down as one of the more successful QB's in franchise history, which I know is sad to say, but it's true. His record wasn't horrible and he got us a playoff appearance. That's more than can be said about most other Bills QB's.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/298775/bills-expectations-high-for-zay-jones-others-entering-crucial-year-3

 

PITTSFORD, N.Y. -- Don't call Frank Gore old. He is old-school, though.

From his training habits to his playing style, the Buffalo Bills' 36-year-old running back's mentality is of a different era -- show up, do your job and do it well. No flash, all substance. Because in the NFL, there's always someone waiting in line for your spot; you don't get long to show why you deserve it.

 

hat's why Year 3 is so critical in a player's development.

In the Bills' case, the team's third-year players carry a heavier-than-average burden. Cornerback Tre'Davious White, left tackle Dion Dawkins, receiver Zay Jones and linebacker Matt Milano represent coach Sean McDermott's first draft class.

"It used to be, give a player two years and show him who he is," McDermott said. "But now with some of the time constraints that we have through the entire calendar year, you know, you want to make sure you give a player enough time -- in this case that third year is important.

[oldmanfan]

I said at the beginning of this thread and repeat here that I think he catches the first TD pass for the season.

[Gugny]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

I'm right there with you. I certainly don't want Taylor back, but he was the best option at the time. He'll go down as one of the more successful QB's in franchise history, which I know is sad to say, but it's true. His record wasn't horrible and he got us a playoff appearance. That's more than can be said about most other Bills QB's.

 

The Bills' better record while he was in was in spite of his play, not because of it.  And he had literally nothing to do with the Bills making the playoffs.  He sure as hell had a lot to do with the Bills losing to Jacksonville, though.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[GunnerBill]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 5:46 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And in fairness, I felt TT was better than he got credit for here, but even I understood he had topped out his ability.  

 

He was far worse than he got credit for. 

[PetermansRedemption]

On 7/29/2019 at 12:46 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

Ha I remember now, and I should have known that, I live in LA haha.  

 

Shows us just how memorable Tyrod is

[Jay_Fixit]

I can’t be the only one who’s creeped out by Alpha’s obsession with Zay Jones.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

20 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

The Bills' better record while he was in was in spite of his play, not because of it.  And he had literally nothing to do with the Bills making the playoffs.  He sure as hell had a lot to do with the Bills losing to Jacksonville, though.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

Exactly 

[PetermansRedemption]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

The Bills' better record while he was in was in spite of his play, not because of it.  And he had literally nothing to do with the Bills making the playoffs.  He sure as hell had a lot to do with the Bills losing to Jacksonville, though.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Quoted for truth! During the playoff year I would constantly say “this team is winning in spite of Tyrod, not because of”. Your quarterback isn’t exactly the reason you are winning when he is averaging 150 yards and 1 touchdown per game. 

[Teddy KGB]

On 7/29/2019 at 12:42 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

He’s on the Chargers.  And I wasn’t a Tyrod fan but this after the fact bashing is kinda pathetic.  I got told we couldn’t have a worse passing attack than we had with Tyrod.  Well we did last year.  Dude was far from an elite qb but he made good decisions and we won more games than we lost with him.  And not many qbs in our franchise’s history can say that.  And I wanted him replaced but this is just silly.

 

P.S. Not really directed at you. I just saw this and had to say something haha.

 

Allen is a starting QB.     Tyrod is a scrub backup who will never see the field.  

 

 

 

Time for the wideouts to eat !    

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Teddy KGB

[Bill from NYC]

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

The Bills' better record while he was in was in spite of his play, not because of it.  And he had literally nothing to do with the Bills making the playoffs.  He sure as hell had a lot to do with the Bills losing to Jacksonville, though.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I see what you are saying but don't agree 100% in that imo Tyrod, with his ability to run and scramble, made the OL look better than it actually was. Now, was/is he a franchise QB? Of course not but there are plenty worse.

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I see what you are saying but don't agree 100% in that imo Tyrod, with his ability to run and scramble, made the OL look better than it actually was. Now, was/is he a franchise QB? Of course not but there are plenty worse.

 

I think the O line did a very good job providing Tyrod with plenty of time.  He was simply incapable of reading defenses and finding open receivers.  He absolutely has talent with his feet and escapability; but he uses those tools because he's not good at doing the things that good QBs do.

[Bill from NYC]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

I think the O line did a very good job providing Tyrod with plenty of time.  He was simply incapable of reading defenses and finding open receivers.  He absolutely has talent with his feet and escapability; but he uses those tools because he's not good at doing the things that good QBs do.

You could very well be correct and make no mistake, I am utterly thrilled that we drafted Allen and was since day 1.

 

The kid has all of the physical gifts that he needs and more. He could turn out to be one of the most exciting players in franchise history.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

You could very well be correct and make no mistake, I am utterly thrilled that we drafted Allen and was since day 1.

 

The kid has all of the physical gifts that he needs and more. He could turn out to be one of the most exciting players in franchise history.

 

I love Allen, too.

 

I'll admit that I was sour on Tyrod Taylor from his first start until he left.  I really wanted him to be good, but I just never saw it.  I also question his character and how good of a teammate he was; but that's a different story, altogether.  I'm just glad he's gone and I'm VERY glad we drafted Allen.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think the O line did a very good job providing Tyrod with plenty of time.  He was simply incapable of reading defenses and finding open receivers.  He absolutely has talent with his feet and escapability; but he uses those tools because he's not good at doing the things that good QBs do.

 

I still wish we had tried to like - fully use his running ability.  I know Roman kind of did - half field reads with a high low option... if neither is open you take off etc.  But he never really ran a full read option style offense.  His inability to window pass on the first read was always a killer though - which probably removes package plays from the repertoire since you can't be late (you only have like one option to throw the ball to and it has to be out and on-time).  

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I love Allen, too.

 

I'll admit that I was sour on Tyrod Taylor from his first start until he left.  I really wanted him to be good, but I just never saw it.  I also question his character and how good of a teammate he was; but that's a different story, altogether.  I'm just glad he's gone and I'm VERY glad we drafted Allen.

 

I'm not sure how much of a locker room leader etc he was.  But i know players saw a guy who's first in the office working out and was doing everything in his power to succeed.  

 

Arm strength, athleticism, hard work - he had all those things.  What he didn't have was between the ears - he couldn't see it before it was happening.  

[Kelly the Dog]

1. To me, all the criticism Alphadawg started this with is true. 

 

2. All of the off season reports of Zay working his ass off and getting better is true. 

 

3. All of the Zay is the starter now in three WR sets is true (although there are not a lot of reports of him making plays. Some but not a lot and especially not a lot in 11-11)

 

4. It is true that Zay made a giant if not quantum leap from his rookie year to his second year. 

 

5. It is also true that the quantum leap vaulted him from all time historically bad to just kinda bad. 

 

6. None of it matters one whit now. The only thing is whether or not Zay produces in regular season (not preseason) games with real bullets. Another quantum leap will make him average. We need more than that. We need high second rounder good. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Kelly the Dog