Boca BIlls Posted May 7, 2019 Posted May 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Logic said: This is why I love Bills fans. A 38-page thread about a third year wide receiver. What could still be being discussed on page 38 that hasn't been covered already? Crikey! How ripped he looks? 1
Dopey Posted May 7, 2019 Posted May 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Just checking in to see if he was cut or traded yet Nope. He was demoted to water boy.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 7, 2019 Posted May 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dopey said: Nope. He was demoted to water boy. Bad hands but can handle water bottle distribution? This is entirely implausible 1
Shaw66 Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: This thread is just nuts - it goes from extreme to extreme and then small pockets of actual good dialogue. I really only have one point to make in this thread and I think it will bear seeing the other players in camp, but I believe Zay makes the team mostly because of position flexibility. Zay has played outside as both the 1 & 2 receiver (not great, but he has experience against both the top and second corners). He also has played some slot roles. I think this gives him a huge advantage in making the final roster because he can fill in at multiple spots and that is harder for a guy like Ray Ray or McKenzie or other guys mentioned to replace him. Sills and Duke Williams will be interesting because they bring some similar play, but not everything either - so that have to really show something to take his spot - bring something no one else can bring. I really believe the team is looking at roles and what each player can do. You have Brown and Foster really outside and Beasley in the slot. If Zay can sort of move around - it allows you to change formations and also give breathers or pull injured players and keep most things the same. I see a lot of other guys that can fill one or 2 spots, but I think Zay has the most flexibility overall. That is my opinion - I think he has a good shot at making the roster and having a totally average year and the coaching staff being fine with that if it is helping them win. He is a good complementary piece that can give you enough help to be useful, but do not expect him to be your #1 - that just is not going to work. Really good point. McBeane love that flexibility. And it isn't theoretical - he has actually played all over. With Duke and Sills, it's just guys who MIGHT be able do what Zay has done.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said: This thread is just nuts - it goes from extreme to extreme and then small pockets of actual good dialogue. I really only have one point to make in this thread and I think it will bear seeing the other players in camp, but I believe Zay makes the team mostly because of position flexibility. Zay has played outside as both the 1 & 2 receiver (not great, but he has experience against both the top and second corners). He also has played some slot roles. I think this gives him a huge advantage in making the final roster because he can fill in at multiple spots and that is harder for a guy like Ray Ray or McKenzie or other guys mentioned to replace him. Sills and Duke Williams will be interesting because they bring some similar play, but not everything either - so that have to really show something to take his spot - bring something no one else can bring. I really believe the team is looking at roles and what each player can do. You have Brown and Foster really outside and Beasley in the slot. If Zay can sort of move around - it allows you to change formations and also give breathers or pull injured players and keep most things the same. I see a lot of other guys that can fill one or 2 spots, but I think Zay has the most flexibility overall. That is my opinion - I think he has a good shot at making the roster and having a totally average year and the coaching staff being fine with that if it is helping them win. He is a good complementary piece that can give you enough help to be useful, but do not expect him to be your #1 - that just is not going to work. You make valid points but there's one more aspect. Unless McDermott and Beane learned nothing from last year, they have to bear in mind that what guys accomplish in preseason and what they can bring when it counts, aren't always the same.
HuSeYiN_NYC Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Logic said: This is why I love Bills fans. A 38-page thread about a third year wide receiver. What could still be being discussed on page 38 that hasn't been covered already? Crikey! I clicked on the last page to see if the OP changed his mind... I couldn't find any evidence of it and I'm not willing to go backwards to see if he did... Does anybody know?
MrEpsYtown Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Logic said: This is why I love Bills fans. A 38-page thread about a third year wide receiver. What could still be being discussed on page 38 that hasn't been covered already? Crikey! For the most part the same three or four arguments get regurgitated a number of times becuase people jump into the thread and share their opinion without reading what's already been written. Cliffs notes: Zay may not make the roster He is a jag with no special skills He cant catch but he only had three drops he has nice abs eric Moulds though zay stats improved but they were in garbage time zay sucks but Stevie Johnson though 1 2
Saxum Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 7 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I would argue 25 and 26 are a receiver's prime now. It is kinda 25-27 rather than 28-30. Guys are coming into the league younger, starting younger... it is just different. That said Stevie was a very specific fit here. He was a #2 anywhere else but produced at a sort of 1B level here in the Chan offense. It was due to his connection to Fritz. Both came onto roster as backups and Stevie had a type of vision to find a way to get to a hole going off plan. Fritz was able to make the adjustment to Stevie's view and get to him ball in place that was not on route. When Stevie lost that connection he was no longer a 1B QB.
Ol Dirty B Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Really good point. McBeane love that flexibility. And it isn't theoretical - he has actually played all over. With Duke and Sills, it's just guys who MIGHT be able do what Zay has done. What has Zay done? If their upside is guys who might be able to do what Zay has done, then cut them. This coaching staff values ST so much they should be finding a Marcus Easley then. Zay has played all over, but below average all over. Being below average all over is not a positive skill set. It's being flat out bad or completely misused. 2
MrEpsYtown Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, HuSeYiN_NYC said: I clicked on the last page to see if the OP changed his mind... I couldn't find any evidence of it and I'm not willing to go backwards to see if he did... Does anybody know? I do not think he has. There is no valid argument against his point. Just cherry picking stats and saying Moulds had a bad first two years, which has nothing to do with Zay. People talk about his statistcal improvement, the majority of which came when games didn't matter. The best argument is that he was a second round pick and will have a longer lease. But anybody looking at it without bias can see that he is not good. 1 2
Rochesterfan Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You make valid points but there's one more aspect. Unless McDermott and Beane learned nothing from last year, they have to bear in mind that what guys accomplish in preseason and what they can bring when it counts, aren't always the same. Agreed - all the more likely he makes the final roster as Zay has done it during the NFL season. His age also helps - Zay is still young - so It is not like you are passing on a young UDFA for a mediocre 30+ year old veteran, but you have youth and experience rolled into Zay.
oldmanfan Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 I will stick with my prediction that Zay catches the first TD pass of the season
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: I will stick with my prediction that Zay catches the first TD pass of the season nice ... That is very possible.
Shaw66 Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 9 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: For the most part the same three or four arguments get regurgitated a number of times becuase people jump into the thread and share their opinion without reading what's already been written. Cliffs notes: Zay may not make the roster He is a jag with no special skills He cant catch but he only had three drops he has nice abs eric Moulds though zay stats improved but they were in garbage time zay sucks but Stevie Johnson though Nice, but you left out Duke Williams. And Foster's emergence as a Hall of Famer. Oh, and Allen's accuracy. Seriously, no one should expect that people read all the posts before posting their own thoughts. A thread is a conversation; when you're talking with a group of people and someone joins late, that person often will repeat things people said earlier, before he arrived. No one tells him to stop because we already talked about that. It is, as you say, just people jumping in and out of a conversation. 1
GunnerBill Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: nice ... That is very possible. Nah, we don't play the Dolphins until week 7..... 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 10 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: For the most part the same three or four arguments get regurgitated a number of times becuase people jump into the thread and share their opinion without reading what's already been written. Cliffs notes: Zay may not make the roster He is a jag with no special skills He cant catch but he only had three drops he has nice abs eric Moulds though zay stats improved but they were in garbage time zay sucks but Stevie Johnson though Pretty much omitted all the positive arguments for Zay 9 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: I do not think he has. There is no valid argument against his point. Just cherry picking stats and saying Moulds had a bad first two years, which has nothing to do with Zay. People talk about his statistcal improvement, the majority of which came when games didn't matter. The best argument is that he was a second round pick and will have a longer lease. But anybody looking at it without bias can see that he is not good. Ah, this explains it then. Read with deep bias, find only viewpoints that reinforce it. 1
MrEpsYtown Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Pretty much omitted all the positive arguments for Zay Ah, this explains it then. Read with deep bias, find only viewpoints that reinforce it. Definitely! this is true on both sides imo. I was trying to be clever. Edited May 8, 2019 by MrEpsYtown
Shaw66 Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 10 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said: What has Zay done? If their upside is guys who might be able to do what Zay has done, then cut them. This coaching staff values ST so much they should be finding a Marcus Easley then. Zay has played all over, but below average all over. Being below average all over is not a positive skill set. It's being flat out bad or completely misused. I'm one who agrees with the OP that Zay could be gone, but I think it's just a reasonable possibility. If it happens it won't mean Zay is bad, just that some others are better. What has he done? As someone else pointed out, he has played all three wideout positions and had decent success. Not great but decent. So he knows and can perform in the system the Bills run. Brown and Beasley, being vets, should be able to get up that learning curve. Williams and the rookies start pretty far behind Zay. Foster is behind him too. So although I think Zay's upside is more limited than some of those others, he is more likely to perform adequately while the team figures out over the entire season whether any of the others can deliver on game day. I share Hap's view in that regard. If Zay isn't on the roster to start the season it will be because others have better upside, Foster or someone else emerged as the number 3, AND as the number 4 Zay's experience and versatility just isn't that important. If Zay is not on the roster for those reasons, that's a good thing for the Bills, because that will mean two guys, like Williams and Sills, both have demonstrated better upside than Zay, plus Foster progressing. From my point of view, Zay on the team isn't a bad outcome, Zay not on the team is better. 3
MrEpsYtown Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) But just to add, I don't really understand the positive arguments for Zay. Most people are saying Eric Moulds took a while to develop so we need to give Zay time. This is a meaningless comparison. Other are saying he showed great improvement statistically. This is also meaningless. Stats came in garbage time and stats are just stats. Turds like Charles Johnson and Ashley Lelie had 1000 yard seasons. The numbers didn't tell you they sucked. (see I can cherry pick too) I don't think either if those arguments are really valid. Both are reaching. The only positive, and I have argued this in the thread on Zay's behalf, is that he showed tremendous potential in college and he hasn't shown any of that in the NFL. So I believe there may be some untapped talent there. His highlight film in college he looks like a completely different guy. Arguments against is that so far in his career: he has trouble catching the ball (which is the main part of his job), he gets no separation, has no RAC ability, has no ability to make contested catches, and cannot be counted on when the games count. To me that is the eye test, it is what he has actually shown the the field. And that is the big fat turd burger. Nobody can argue against these points. They are facts. Edited May 8, 2019 by MrEpsYtown
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: Definitely! this is true on both sides imo. I was trying to be clever. I'm not so sure "both sides" is accurate, but let that go. I'm waiting to see the stats that demonstrate " People talk about his statistical improvement, the majority of which came when games didn't matter. " -What does "when games didn't matter" even mean? -Where are the stats that support this point of view? I can look up player splits with the best of 'em, and I can't find 'em, but perhaps the problem lies with understanding the definition of "when games didn't matter".
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