Calling it now: Zay Jones will not be on the week 1 roster.

[Stank_Nasty]

22 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I dont hate him, said it many times in this thread.  Will be happy for him to prove my skepticism wrong.  I even liked it when we drafted him, albeit I preferred JuJu as I saw more of him living in LA.  But still was excited about Zay.  

 

Im just being honest about what he’s done so far.  I was one of just a few people who liked the Stevie Johnson pick too.  And after watching him over several years, my earlier excitement grew critical of how he really played.  I was in the minority then too and people said I was crazy for doubting him just because he had 3 consecutive 1000 yard seasons. But he barley eclipsed 1000 yards in a pass happy offense as number 1 target with a gunslinging QB.  And he was always piling on stats at ends of blow out losses and irrelevant during close games too often or when it mattered. 

 

Once he left Buffalo he proved he was just another guy despite playing with a future HOF QB and was out of the league in his prime.

 

Not saying that’s going to happen to Zay, just saying that just because you are a fan of the Bills doesn’t mean you can’t be critically honest either even when you liked the player.

 

That might be the dumbest comment yet.  I don’t post with your type agendas.  

I know this is veering off the actual topic but since when is the age of 30 a wr's "prime"?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

That number for the Bills is complete crap.

 

Stats .....  You got to love um 

[Real McClappy]

24 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I know this is veering off the actual topic but since when is the age of 30 a wr's "prime"?

more like 26-27.

 

30 is the slope down

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

That number for the Bills is complete crap.

 

Does anyone here actually believe we had just 1 drop per game? Does that match up with anyone's memory of the games last year?

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

I know this is veering off the actual topic but since when is the age of 30 a wr's "prime"?

 

He hasn't played in the NFL since 2015, when he was 28...and thats a WRs prime.  And he hasn't had a meaningful season since 2012 when he was 25. 

[Stank_Nasty]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He hasn't played in the NFL since 2015, when he was 28...and thats a WRs prime.  And he hasn't had a meaningful season since 2012 when he was 25. 

he turned 29 his last season in the league and didn't play the next when he eventually turned 30.... that's not a dudes prime. I think its fairly evident his prime was ages 24-27. about like every other nfl player....

 

but I honestly don't care enough to keep a debate going over it..... so whatever. you win???

Edited May 7, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[Alphadawg7]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Does anyone here actually believe we had just 1 drop per game? Does that match up with anyone's memory of the games last year?

 

We had a lot more drops than what was counted as an official stat.  The stat is subjective, but at the end of the day, our WR's dropped a heck of a lot more passes than what got registered as an official drop.  This is true for all teams too.  

 

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

he turned 29 his last season in the league and didn't play the next when he eventually turned 30.... that's not a dudes prime. I think its fairly evident his prime was ages 24-27. about like every other nfl player....

 

but I honestly don't care enough to keep a debate going over it..... so whatever. you win???

 

All good...to clarify, he didnt play his last season in the league.  He was 28 the last time he was on the field as 2015 was his last year he actually played.  28 is still a WR's prime, so is 29 as most good WR's play at a high level until at least 32 and even longer in a lot of cases.  More importantly, Stevie had not had a relevant season since 2013 when he was 25/26 years old.  

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Stank_Nasty]

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good...to clarify, he didnt play his last season in the league.  He was 28 the last time he was on the field as 2015 was his last year he actually played.  28 is still a WR's prime, so is 29 as most good WR's play at a high level until at least 32 and even longer in a lot of cases.  More importantly, Stevie had not had a relevant season since 2013 when he was 25/26 years old.  

 

 

just because I'm being difficult..... he had 7 grabs for 90 yds and a td a day after his 29th birthday. then didn't catch another pass that year. must have gotten hurt..... soooooo 29. ?

[Alphadawg7]

34 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

just because I'm being difficult..... he had 7 grabs for 90 yds and a td a day after his 29th birthday. then didn't catch another pass that year. must have gotten hurt..... soooooo 29. ?

 

Ah, didn’t know he turned 29 during his final season.  Either way, 29 is still prime years for a WR and SJ play fell off 3 years earlier

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

All good...to clarify, he didnt play his last season in the league.  He was 28 the last time he was on the field as 2015 was his last year he actually played.  28 is still a WR's prime, so is 29 as most good WR's play at a high level until at least 32 and even longer in a lot of cases.  More importantly, Stevie had not had a relevant season since 2013 when he was 25/26 years old.  

 

 

 

I would argue 25 and 26 are a receiver's prime now. It is kinda 25-27 rather than 28-30. Guys are coming into the league younger, starting younger... it is just different. That said Stevie was a very specific fit here. He was a #2 anywhere else but produced at a sort of 1B level here in the Chan offense. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 hours ago, GG said:

Funny how you link a TD for a game that's out of hand.

 

This was the statement you made, to which I was responding:

"It would be easier to have faith if he once showed the ability to catch without fighting the ball. 

At this point, if you're appealing to faith, then it's a blind faith because he hasn't shown enough to merit anything else.  

 

The out-of-handness of the game is not germaine to addressing your statement.

 

Now you could acknowledge the point: yes, Zay has in fact shown the ability to catch without fighting the ball

But the game is apparently "let me exaggerate ridiculously then when someone calls me on it switch to a different argument"

 

I don't play that.

 

 

[GG]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This was the statement you made, to which I was responding:

"It would be easier to have faith if he once showed the ability to catch without fighting the ball. 

At this point, if you're appealing to faith, then it's a blind faith because he hasn't shown enough to merit anything else.  

 

The out-of-handness of the game is not germaine to addressing your statement.

 

Now you could acknowledge the point: yes, Zay has in fact shown the ability to catch without fighting the ball

But the game is apparently "let me exaggerate ridiculously then when someone calls me on it switch to a different argument"

 

I don't play that.

 

 

 

If you're going to be a stickler for a totally literal interpretation of every comment, then perhaps you shouldn't have linked a video that shows Zay clearly bobbling a catch when he hits the ground.  That catch is likely overturned by 2017 rules. 

 

Having said that, thank you for finding the ONE catch that Zay made without fighting the ball.  So, despite the inconclusive evidence that he actually cleanly caught the ball without a bobble or double-tap, since the camera angle was shielded by the defender, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this ONE particular catch was clean.

 

The commentary about out-of-hand games was related to another comment that I made earlier in the thread about Zay only showing up when the stakes don't matter.  The eye test and stats bear that out.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GG

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

just because I'm being difficult..... he had 7 grabs for 90 yds and a td a day after his 29th birthday. then didn't catch another pass that year. must have gotten hurt..... soooooo 29. ?

 

SJ, right?  IR'd with surgery for torn meniscus 2016, released next preseason.

 

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ah, didn’t know he turned 29 during his final season.  Either way, 29 is still prime years for a WR and SJ play fell off 3 years earlier

 

In my opinion, SJ was a great fit for the Erhart-Perkins system the way Chan coached it - "beat your man, run to the spot"

When he moved to teams running a West Coast timing offense, he became JAG

 

Also, isn't he the one who said he took the off-season program pamplet they gave him (on the Bills) and stuck it in a drawer and never looked at it?  Guys who take their body for granted and don't make a craft out of caring for it and conditioning don't last that long. 

 

I don't think the records support the notion that 29 is 'still prime years for a WR'.  A handful of truly great WR last that long.  If you look at last year's top-20 receivers, 2 were 29 (Julio Jones and Kelce) and one is 30 (Antonio Brown).  The average age looks about 25-26 with a standard deviation of 2-3 yrs.  So most fall in the range 23-28 years.  JJSS is an outliery on the young end just as JJ and AB are at the high end.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, GG said:

 

If you're going to be a stickler for a totally literal interpretation of every comment, then perhaps you shouldn't have linked a video that shows Zay clearly bobbling a catch when he hits the ground.  That catch is likely overturned by 2017 rules. 

 

Having said that, thank you for finding the ONE catch that Zay made without fighting the ball.  So, despite the inconclusive evidence that he actually cleanly caught the ball without a bobble or double-tap, since the camera angle was shielded by the defender, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this ONE particular catch was clean.

 

The commentary about out-of-hand games was related to another comment that I made earlier in the thread about Zay only showing up when the stakes don't matter.  The eye test and stats bear that out.

 

They don't, actually, but you go on beating your hoss.  How do I know you're hoss-beating?  Because it wasn't presented by me as the ONE catch, there are others - it was simply to illustrate a point of what lengths people are going to to dis off  Zay Jones, I could easily in a minute pull up clips of a couple good catches.  Distorting it into a straw-man is a sure sign of a stable agenda.

 

Is he what we all (and the Bills) hoped for, from looking at his college tape and trading up in the draft?  No, not to date.   He clearly struggled adjusting to the NFL, and not having an established, proficient passing QB throwing to him, an established #1 WR playing across from him, or (last year) a sound pass-protecting OL didn't help.  He was clearly much better last year than the year before.  When I watched every offensive snap the Bills made last year, I see a lot of places where he's doing what he's asked, getting open, and not getting the ball.    Has he had drops, or whiffed on catches he needs to make to be a quality WR, sure?  He needs to take another step this year.

 

But let's not be silly about it.  He's had good catches and good games, especially with Barkley and towards the end of the year as Allen progressed. 

[Logic]

This is why I love Bills fans. 

A 38-page thread about a third year wide receiver.

What could still be being discussed on page 38 that hasn't been covered already?

Crikey!

Edited May 7, 2019 by Logic

[GG]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They don't, actually, but you go on beating your hoss.  How do I know you're hoss-beating?  Because it wasn't presented by me as the ONE catch, there are others - it was simply to illustrate a point of what lengths people are going to to dis off  Zay Jones, I could easily in a minute pull up clips of a couple good catches.  Distorting it into a straw-man is a sure sign of a stable agenda.

 

Is he what we all (and the Bills) hoped for, from looking at his college tape and trading up in the draft?  No, not to date.   He clearly struggled adjusting to the NFL, and not having an established, proficient passing QB throwing to him, an established #1 WR playing across from him, or (last year) a sound pass-protecting OL didn't help.  He was clearly much better last year than the year before.  When I watched every offensive snap the Bills made last year, I see a lot of places where he's doing what he's asked, getting open, and not getting the ball.    Has he had drops, or whiffed on catches he needs to make to be a quality WR, sure?  He needs to take another step this year.

 

But let's not be silly about it.  He's had good catches and good games, especially with Barkley and towards the end of the year as Allen progressed. 

The stats do bear out Zay's disappearance when things matter.  So does Foster's quicker improvement in half of the season compared to Zay's 2 year plan. 

 

That you chose to be a stickler on the literal vs hyperbole doesn't change the fact that there's little to base expectations of his sudden improvement in 2019 based on his body of work.  

 

He's easy to defend, isn't consistent and will lose snaps to the other guys who are more reliable.  

 

But you can still have faith.  

 

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

This is why I love Bills fans. 

A 38-page thread about a third year wide receiver.

What could still be being discussed on page 38 that hasn't been covered already?

Crikey!

If I were to guess, it’s about 1/3 content, 1/3 bickering and 1/3 people complaining that the thread even exists. (That is the usual for a thread this size)

[Rochesterfan]

This thread is just nuts - it goes from extreme to extreme and then small pockets of actual good dialogue.

 

I really only have one point to make in this thread and I think it will bear seeing the other players in camp, but I believe Zay makes the team mostly because of position flexibility.

 

Zay has played outside as both the 1 & 2 receiver (not great, but he has experience against both the top and second corners).  He also has played some slot roles.  I think this gives him a huge advantage in making the final roster because he can fill in at multiple spots and that is harder for a guy like Ray Ray or McKenzie or other guys mentioned to replace him.

 

Sills and Duke Williams will be interesting because they bring some similar play, but not everything either - so they have to really show something to take his spot - bring something no one else can bring.

 

I really believe the team is looking at roles and what each player can do.  You have Brown and Foster really outside and Beasley in the slot.  If Zay can sort of move around - it allows you to change formations and also give breathers or pull injured players and keep most things the same.  

 

I see a lot of other guys that can fill one or 2 spots, but I think Zay has the most flexibility overall.

 

That is my opinion - I think he has a good shot at making the roster and having a totally average year and the coaching staff being fine with that if it is helping them win.  He is a good complementary piece that can give you enough help to be useful, but do not expect him to be your #1 - that just is not going to work.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Rochesterfan

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Just checking in to see if he was cut or traded yet