SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 I thought it was in the Biggest Bust thread but I cannot find it. But I did find this.
Teddy KGB Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: I thought it was in the Biggest Bust thread but I cannot find it. But I did find this. Two of those guys are amazing. One kinda sucks.
Shaw66 Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: My memory of the Foster timeline is a bit different. In fact, if you look up his game logs on pro-football-reference, you'll see that while opinion on him was certainly mixed in preseason (1 catch for a TD), he actually started the season on the 53-man roster. He was active for the first 6 games, in fact. During that time, he rather crapped the bed. He did all the things that were knocks on him previously. He ran sloppy routes. He quit on routes. He failed to catch a long ball that passed right through his hands. So after game 6, they waived his a** and signed him to the Practice Squad. About a month later, having apparently processed his wake-up call, he was reactivated and finished the season well. We in B'lo always think our cutout bin guys will be in high demand. But if Williams is in a position that fits your Foster narrative - didn't do much all summer, no one clamoring for him to be on the 53 - I see no reason to think other teams are going to be knocking each other down to grab him. He's a guy who went undrafted because he f'ed up multiple times with a college program then by his own account lost his heart and head for the game and muffed a shot with the Rams. Again by his own account, his head still wasn't in it when he got a shot in the CFL. He's seen some success in the CFL, but the game is very different there. WR get a running start, for one thing. Both Williams and Sills are big guys who have question marks about their athleticism and their ability to get off the line and get open against NFL-grade players. If they don't show anything in preseason and training camp, I see no reason to believe teams will be beating down their agents doors. Shaw, I love you Man, but you're making me laugh here. Williams in the past has stood out for wrong reasons. We hope that's in the past, but it remains to be seen how his head and his heart hold out through the rigors and stress of an NFL season. Sills just stood out so much, he went undrafted by 32 teams. I want him to succeed, he seems like a great, smart, high-character guy, but read his draft profile then read Zays. Yes, their potential is clear, but until they show something on an NFL field on Sunday when it counts, it's just that - potential. Hap - You make good points. And we both know we're both just amateurs at this. All we can do is wait and see what happens. In particular, Sills has to be a long shot, for exactly the reasons you give. The Bills took exactly that long shot on Foster last season, as you point out. So I wouldn't count him out for that reason. And particularly in particular Williams. You seem a bit stuck on his history, which is undeniable. Put the history aside for a moment. Physically, the guy is superior to Zay. He just is. His behavior has been under control for two years and he's playing for a coach who teaches a personal philosophy that is exactly what Williams needs. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Williams could be better than Zay out of the box and has a higher upside. 42 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: Same here. I’ll keel looking. I know I saw one here google just gives me Naked Zay videos and the dropped Carolina pass I think there was an eight minutes of Bills' drops video. It wasn't just Zay. I have to say that when I saw it, I was surprised how many ugly drops Zay had in 2018. I thought he had improved, and he had. Just not so much as I remember.
without a drought Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 On 2/27/2019 at 8:03 PM, ChicagoRic said: Sitting behind 1 HOFer. 96 and 97 was Andre Reed at the tail end of his career getting the ball from a past-his prime Jim Kelly and then Todd Collins..... Quinn Early, Steve Tasker (as a WR) Russell Copeland and Chris Brantley are not HOF material. Weird thing in 1997 was that the only WR besides Reed, Early or Moulds to catch a pass was Jerry Reese who finished with 1 catch.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 8 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: About 3 posts above this there is a great breakdown by Alpha on Zays 7 touchdowns This is insane. This has gotten so out of control there is just nothing reasonable being said. Those “contextual” arguments are terrible, independently. But what’s worse about then is they ignore that every player with high touchdown numbers score touchdowns that also have “context,” as if Zay is the only player in the league scoring touchdowns against bad teams or in garbage time.
Toesy Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 IMO the discussion isn't crazy-it looks like most fans see Jones as the #4 WR right now-so it looks like he will be competing against Sills, Williams and McKenzie. Roberts is locked in already.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 43 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: And particularly in particular Williams. You seem a bit stuck on his history, which is undeniable. Put the history aside for a moment. Physically, the guy is superior to Zay. He just is. His behavior has been under control for two years and he's playing for a coach who teaches a personal philosophy that is exactly what Williams needs. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Williams could be better than Zay out of the box and has a higher upside. "Physically, the guy is superior to Zay. He just is" http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/zay-jones?id=2557863 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/dhaquille-williams?id=2555210 How? I'm not stuck on his history. But if he's "physically superior to Zay", he has yet to prove it - either in the Underwear Olympics, or in the NFL. I'm stuck on saying a guy who has shown something in the NFL is not less than a guy whose only showing in the NFL to date is getting his butt cut from a shallow WR pool on a team that went 4-12. Now maybe he turned it around and can make it in the NFL now. I hope he can, but in my book he's yet to prove anything, much less that he "just is" physically superior to Zay Jones.
boater Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 Poor Zay, 34 pages of comments about his ultimate demise. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, Toesy said: IMO the discussion isn't crazy-it looks like most fans see Jones as the #4 WR right now-so it looks like he will be competing against Sills, Williams and McKenzie. Roberts is locked in already. Roberts isn't locked in at WR. He will be the #5 or 6 guy, the special-teamer who can fill in for injury at WR. I don't know what most fans see, but I'd be pretty surprised if the Bills coaches and FO see Jones as #4. I think they understand that being the #2 WR playing behind Amari Cooper in a developed pass offense with a decent rush attack, as Beasley did in Dallas, is a different situation than making ~ the same yardage/receptions the first year in a new offense with no rushing game and the should-be #1 not doing his job. I also think they want to have enough competition that it's clear to guys - run your routes crisply, don't quit, catch what's thrown to you - or you're out of here. 1
BillsFan130 Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This is insane. This has gotten so out of control there is just nothing reasonable being said. Those “contextual” arguments are terrible, independently. But what’s worse about then is they ignore that every player with high touchdown numbers score touchdowns that also have “context,” as if Zay is the only player in the league scoring touchdowns against bad teams or in garbage time. It was actually a very true and fair analysis
NewEra Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) Odds went up. 82- O/U of pages this is by the day we cut to 53? Edited May 4, 2019 by NewEra 1
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 16 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: It was actually a very true and fair analysis It can never be a fair analysis because it assumes the other WR2s he is being compared to score more “legitimate” touchdowns. Unless there is an accompanying analysis of other WRs, the argument is based on a hollow premise. All WRs score touchdowns against bad teams. It doesn’t mean their numbers are somehow less meaningful. 7 touchdowns is 7 touchdowns. 1
ColoradoBills Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 20 minutes ago, Toesy said: IMO the discussion isn't crazy-it looks like most fans see Jones as the #4 WR right now-so it looks like he will be competing against Sills, Williams and McKenzie. Roberts is locked in already. 2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Roberts isn't locked in at WR. He will be the #5 or 6 guy, the special-teamer who can fill in for injury at WR. I don't know what most fans see, but I'd be pretty surprised if the Bills coaches and FO see Jones as #4. I think they understand that being the #2 WR playing behind Amari Cooper in a developed pass offense with a decent rush attack, as Beasley did in Dallas, is a different situation than making ~ the same yardage/receptions the first year in a new offense with no rushing game and the should-be #1 not doing his job. I also think they want to have enough competition that it's clear to guys - run your routes crisply, don't quit, catch what's thrown to you - or you're out of here. I was just going to quote Toesy concerning the same type of thing. Who here is prepared to assign a 1,2,3,4 WR receiver pecking order right now. I know I am not. I'm not even sure how Daboll is going to scheme his WRs (now that he has some). It seems to me many have a Brown and Foster outside and Beasley slot as a done deal. Foster looked great at times but with a primary corner going up against him will he produce? His last 2 games was 12 targets for 73 yards. Is he a shoe in for taking 75% of the offensive snaps. You got to bet Beasley is the primary slot guy but the outside guys could rotate more than expected. I really hope Daboll and McDermott are going into this camp with an open mind about who will do what when. Let them all compete to see who plays best with JA.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: I was just going to quote Toesy concerning the same type of thing. Who here is prepared to assign a 1,2,3,4 WR receiver pecking order right now. I know I am not. I'm not even sure how Daboll is going to scheme his WRs (now that he has some). It seems to me many have a Brown and Foster outside and Beasley slot as a done deal. Foster looked great at times but with a primary corner going up against him will he produce? His last 2 games was 12 targets for 73 yards. Is he a shoe in for taking 75% of the offensive snaps. You got to bet Beasley is the primary slot guy but the outside guys could rotate more than expected. I really hope Daboll and McDermott are going into this camp with an open mind about who will do what when. Let them all compete to see who plays best with JA. Heh. Well, evidently some are so prepared right now. You touch on a key factor. Allen is an improvisational, instinctive player. Who will get on the same page with him will be key.
BillsFan130 Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: It can never be a fair analysis because it assumes the other WR2s he is being compared to score more “legitimate” touchdowns. Unless there is an accompanying analysis of other WRs, the argument is based on a hollow premise. All WRs score touchdowns against bad teams. It doesn’t mean their numbers are somehow less meaningful. 7 touchdowns is 7 touchdowns. I don’t think there was necessarily a comparison. Was just saying from a Bills fan perspective who watches Zay Jones every game, 7 TDS does not tell the full story. We are strictly critiquing Zay as we are Bills fans and watch him closely and we are not comparing him to anyone.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: I don’t think there was necessarily a comparison. Was just saying from a Bills fan perspective who watches Zay Jones every game, 7 TDS does not tell the full story. We are strictly critiquing Zay as we are Bills fans and watch him closely and we are not comparing him to anyone. I hear you. The problem is the comparison is implicit. 7 touchdowns is good because it is a benchmark for what a good WR2 is. However, every other 7 touchdown receiver has touchdowns that can be devalued like you are doing to Zay. But that doesn’t mean they are any less good WR2s. It’s an implied double standard.
BillsFan130 Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I hear you. The problem is the comparison is implicit. 7 touchdowns is good because it is a benchmark for what a good WR2 is. However, every other 7 touchdown receiver has touchdowns that can be devalued like you are doing to Zay. But that doesn’t mean they are any less good WR2s. It’s an implied double standard. Why should it be a benchmark though? Pretty sure Justin hunter a few years back had 5 plus touchdowns and that doesn’t make him a top 3 WR. Zay is also not a W2 receiver. The bills upgraded at the position smartly. At best he is 4 at the depth chart behind brown, Beasley and foster 1
njbuff Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 We are fighting over Zay Jones. If Josh Allen becomes the franchise QB we all think he can be..................... it really doesn't matter who his weapons are, just do what they DIDN'T in 2018 and that is catch the damn ball. 1 1
Alphadawg7 Posted May 5, 2019 Author Posted May 5, 2019 2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: It can never be a fair analysis because it assumes the other WR2s he is being compared to score more “legitimate” touchdowns. Unless there is an accompanying analysis of other WRs, the argument is based on a hollow premise. All WRs score touchdowns against bad teams. It doesn’t mean their numbers are somehow less meaningful. 7 touchdowns is 7 touchdowns. Except it’s not. But ok
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