K-9 Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 13 hours ago, Pete said: Huge difference. Sure both were 5 star recruits out of HS, and neither were drafted. DaRick hasn't done much since college. Whereas Duke was a CFL star. Beane himself has said that Duke makes WR not as much a need. DaRick's failures have no bearing on Duke's success DaRick Rogers was one of the most “football stupidest” players I’ve ever seen. If you needed a receiver to run coverages into other routes, he was your man.
dollars 2 donuts Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jay_Fixit said: Zay will lead the team in receiving. People here are way too hard on him. 54 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said: I want to give him a 3rd year. I could have seen it going down had we targeted WRs in the draft after picking up a lot of FAs but I'm glad we went trenches and potential playmakers at the RB and TE position. Zay's clearly had enough production to merit keeping him on the roster and see improvement. More consistency on the flashes he's shown us so far of what he's capable of, and less mental errors. That all inevitably gets better as a WR matures. Years 3 or 4 we'll truly have a proper evaluation of his abilities in the NFL. Granted we're weak at the position on paper, it's contingent on Foster maintaining how he finished last year and Zay improving. We absolutely needed depth in veterans John Brown and Cole Beasley which is what I wanted to address first and foremost. Don't want to trot out WRs that don't belong on the field like these last 3 years: put a floor on our worst WR, so that Josh Allen can spread the ball around better. JA doesn't have an established weapon which he needs desperately. But we've otherwise adequately addressed many offensive problems we had last year. Maybe the offense still won't be good enough next year, but it won't be as big a liability to go 6-10. Next year I want to see an above average offense and a winning formula based on the defense or offense. It depends on how much Zay improves, which he will to some degree undoubtedly, Foster, and JA. And having proper knowledge of Zay's place in the NFL will give us a good opportunity next offseason to truly beef up the WR corps if needed. I wanted to see him with the Bills in his 3rd year. It would have been disappointing getting rid of him for anything other than a top tier WR like DHop or Julio. I'd rather see Zay's jump in performance next year, than bet on a 2nd round or later rookie's jump into the NFL. Zay's done enough to earn that. 12 minutes ago, brianb386 said: Zay isn't a good option as a #1 guy, but he is a great #3 or #4 at worst. He may still be a solid #2. He had a bad start but has shown growth. I don't see them parting ways this year. If he has a bad year, then maybe next offseason, but I think the chances of him being off the roster week 1 are slim. True and agree to the three of you. In a tragic offensive year (which Zay, yes, was a part of, but I think a small part due to some drops) I honestly can't wrap my head around the desire of many to run this guy out on a rail after he caught 61 passes for 7 TDs to lead the team, in his second year, after being drafted to be...wait for it...a number 2 receiver and is costing this team about a million dollars a year. Edit: and according Carp the Bills love him and he saw the field for 95% of the offensive snaps last year. Whose dog did this man kick?! Edited May 2, 2019 by dollars 2 donuts 1
MrEpsYtown Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 There is nothing at all special about Zay. When he's open, he sometimes catches the ball. He has no deep speed, he's average in size, has too many drops, he's an okay route runner, he's a bad blocker, he never makes contested catches, and has no RAC ability whatsoever. On top of that, he doesn't play special teams. He was a bad draft pick who has very little upside. He is literally, just a guy. I hope they move on. They probably won't, and will probably regret it. Trade him now while he might have some left over prospect shine. 2
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: There is nothing at all special about Zay. When he's open, he sometimes catches the ball. He has no deep speed, he's average in size, has too many drops, he's an okay route runner, he's a bad blocker, he never makes contested catches, and has no RAC ability whatsoever. On top of that, he doesn't play special teams. He was a bad draft pick who has very little upside. He is literally, just a guy. I hope they move on. They probably won't, and will probably regret it. Trade him now while he might have some left over prospect shine. He had the most catches of any Bills WR since 2016, but sure since the Bills are so loaded with WR talent they should move on. Also, not for nothing, he had 3 drops last year. Its pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about, and being driven by his Rookie year narrative (which went completely out the window in year 2).
Guest K-GunJimKelly12 Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 42 minutes ago, Limeaid said: The difference was that rookies and 2 year players were not expected to perform like they are now. A player of Moulds level coming out in draft now would be a godsend for some OC's. The same is a receiver can't perform without a QB who can get him the ball. Zay had the dropsies year one but largely corrected that in year two. Zay had Tyrod, Peterman and a raw rookie in Allen throwing to him for his 1st year and a half. When Allen came back from his injury, he played much better and there was a direct correlation correlation in production from the receiver position. People thought Randy Moss was done in Oakland then was traded to New England and had one of the greatest years of all time. It's no coincidence that when Moulds went from the Todd Collins, Van Pelt, Hobert trio to Flutie, his production sky rocketed. This thread is full of people not considering how QB play affects the receiver, even though it is the most important factor.
MrEpsYtown Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: He had the most catches of any Bills WR since 2016, but sure since the Bills are so loaded with WR talent they should move on. Also, not for nothing, he had 3 drops last year. Its pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about, and being driven by his Rookie year narrative (which went completely out the window in year 2). Remember who the quarterback was those two years. Are you basically saying our receivers were so terrible for two years that this terrible receiver had better stats than them? Is that what makes him special? I'm sorry but that is a totally meaningless point. This is crap, but that was more crappy, so this is better crap. It is still crap. Zay is nothing special. You could put almost anyone in there and get the same production imo. You can tell me whatever you think about what I know. He sucks. His rookie year sucked, his sophomore year was full of stats in garbage time. He's just not a big deal. He doesn't make plays. I liked the pick at that time, but he has proven to be a waste. I hope he surprises me, and iIhope he is good, and I'd be happy to come back to this thread and admit that I was wrong. I'm not holding my breath for that. 1
Saxum Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, K-GunJimKelly12 said: This thread is full of people not considering how QB play affects the receiver, even though it is the most important factor. I agree and scheme affects as well. Zay's first year was ruined by his WR coach who could not teach him on how to make transition to NFL. Ironically the WR coach was his WR coach in college and recommended him to Coach McD.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: Remember who the quarterback was those two years. Are you basically saying our receivers were so terrible for two years that this terrible receiver had better stats than them? Is that what makes him special? I'm sorry but that is a totally meaningless point. This is crap, but that was more crappy, so this is better crap. It is still crap. Zay is nothing special. You could put almost anyone in there and get the same production imo. You can tell me whatever you think about what I know. He sucks. His rookie year sucked, his sophomore year was full of stats in garbage time. He's just not a big deal. He doesn't make plays. I liked the pick at that time, but he has proven to be a waste. I hope he surprises me, and iIhope he is good, and I'd be happy to come back to this thread and admit that I was wrong. I'm not holding my breath for that. This is a mind boggling contradiction.
MrEpsYtown Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This is a mind boggling contradiction. I don't want to get into some internet argument, but I'm not sure what you are implying. Are you saying the quarterback play was terrible last year? With Josh you can see the obvious upside, despite his inconsistencies. I don't see the upside with Zay.
Shaw66 Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 Alpha I give you credit. When you started this thread, my first reaction was no way. After a while I thought, well, maybe. Mow I think there's a good chance Zay will be gone. Beasley, Brown, Foster, Roberts, Williams, Sills could easily push Zay out. Sills? The problem the Bill's have with Sills is that if he shows real promise, they won't be able to hide him on the practice squad. The problem Zay has is that Sills and William's are his competition, and both of them are fierce competitors. Zay has to step up his game immediately, because those two will be pedal to the metal immediately. Great prediction.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 1 minute ago, MrEpsYtown said: I don't want to get into some internet argument, but I'm not sure what you are implying. Are you saying the quarterback play was terrible last year? With Josh you can see the obvious upside, despite his inconsistencies. I don't see the upside with Zay. You are attributing bad WR play to bad QB play, but not giving the same benefit to Zay. That is a wild contradiction. Look, people said the same about Zay after his rookie year, and what did he do? He almost doubled his production. He is on an upward trend. Why would that trend stop after year 2? How can a player trending up have no "upside?"
MrEpsYtown Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Alpha I give you credit. When you started this thread, my first reaction was no way. After a while I thought, well, maybe. Mow I think there's a good chance Zay will be gone. Beasley, Brown, Foster, Roberts, Williams, Sills could easily push Zay out. Sills? The problem the Bill's have with Sills is that if he shows real promise, they won't be able to hide him on the practice squad. The problem Zay has is that Sills and William's are his competition, and both of them are fierce competitors. Zay has to step up his game immediately, because those two will be pedal to the metal immediately. Great prediction. Great points. I do wonder which of these guys can be special teams guys. Outside of Foster I'm not sure. And if Foster is a starter here, maybe he doesn't play teams. I know it's not the biggest deal, but whoever makes the team needs to have some flexibility and versatility imo. I actually like the Iowa Easley kid a lot and I think he makes a great amount of sense as a slot guy, but he perhaps does make it to the practice. I agree that I don't think Sills does and Sills and Duke both offer size, which I think is something that is desperately needed here.
Alphadawg7 Posted May 2, 2019 Author Posted May 2, 2019 55 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: He had the most catches of any Bills WR since 2016, but sure since the Bills are so loaded with WR talent they should move on. Also, not for nothing, he had 3 drops last year. Its pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about, and being driven by his Rookie year narrative (which went completely out the window in year 2). If I hand you three bags of dog poop, one will smell better than the other two. Doesn’t mean it smells good. So sorry, this statement is beyond meaningless. His catch total was not good, his catch rate was not good, almost all his production came in 3 games, he was worthless and dominated badly in weeks 14, 15, and 16 with Allen, he had less than 40 yards receiving in 74% of his career games and 67% of his 2018 games, he was outplayed by an UDFA, and has a career catch rate under 50%. But that’s a nice attempt to make his poop smell like a rose...but it’s still poop.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: If I hand you three bags of dog poop, one will smell better than the other two. Doesn’t mean it smells good. So sorry, this statement is beyond meaningless. His catch total was not good, his catch rate was not good, almost all his production came in 3 games, he was worthless and dominated badly in weeks 14, 15, and 16 with Allen, he had less than 40 yards receiving in 74% of his career games and 67% of his 2018 games, he was outplayed by an UDFA, and has a career catch rate under 50%. But that’s a nice attempt to make his poop smell like a rose...but it’s still poop. Well, its more like manure that is in the process of turning into a flower. Based of course on his upward trajectory. Look, I'm never opposed to upgrades. But there aren't any upgrades. Zay is arguably the second best receiver on the roster. And since he is continuing to get better, there is literally no reason to trade him (notice I didn't say cut...lol).
MrEpsYtown Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: You are attributing bad WR play to bad QB play, but not giving the same benefit to Zay. That is a wild contradiction. Look, people said the same about Zay after his rookie year, and what did he do? He almost doubled his production. He is on an upward trend. Why would that trend stop after year 2? How can a player trending up have no "upside?" I get you.I just don't buy his statistics as being anything all that real. I just don't see it with Zay. I don't see game breaking ability. He doesn't make plays. I want to give him a break for his terrible play his rookie year with Tyrod, and I get that he was injured, but boy as bad as Tyrod was, some of Zay's drops were right on the money. I think you have to attribute his increase in statistics as having played so many snaps with better quarterback play. I think it's impossible for a guy to play as much as he did, be targeted as much as he was, and not put up these numbers. Any receiver in the NFL could do what he did imo. 1
nedboy7 Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 ZJ is most likely gonna have a career year and make this thread look silly. What’s the point of arguing over this.
BillsFan130 Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said: Zay will lead the team in receiving. People here are way too hard on him. We are hard on him because he has a hard time catching the ball, he cant consistently get open, and he lacks game breaking skills. Jones got demoted on the depth chart this year with the additions of Beasley and Brown, and possibly even duke Williams. Make no mistake about that. 1
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted May 2, 2019 Posted May 2, 2019 1 minute ago, MrEpsYtown said: I get you.I just don't buy his statistics as being anything all that real. I just don't see it with Zay. I don't see game breaking ability. He doesn't make plays. I want to give him a break for his terrible play his rookie year with Tyrod, and I get that he was injured, but boy as bad as Tyrod was, some of Zay's drops were right on the money. I think you have to attribute his increase in statistics as having played so many snaps with better quarterback play. I think it's impossible for a guy to play as much as he did, be targeted as much as he was, and not put up these numbers. Any receiver in the NFL could do what he did imo. He definitely isn't a game breaker. And that is ok. Robert Woods isn't a game breaker. Stevie Johnson wasn't. The list goes on. He just needs to be a good WR that gets open. He does that. He sucked his rookie year, foooor sure. But he didn't his second year. I think the real problem is peoples vision of him is clouded by his terrible rookie year. His progress just isn't taken into consideration. But more importantly, I just don't think the fact that he isn't this mystical "WR1" means that he shouldn't be an NFL starter, or even a back up. That is just a huge disconnect for me. I mean, with his production last year, there is just no argument that he isn't at least a WR3. Could anyone do what he has done? Maybe. That is sort of an unprove-able assertion.
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