MrEpsYtown Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 I think San Fran and Tampa would be interested in Zay as a slot guy and I think he could be used as a part of a package in a trade up scenario. 2
Stank_Nasty Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Doc said: No, in another post he said (I'm paraphrasing) that "people aren't even aware of the fact that he was better with Peterman, Anderson and Barkley than Allen..." when he didn't even play with Anderson and played just a half with Peterman and had no catches. oh. ya..... that's just factually 100% wrong. dude is a character.
Doc Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: oh. ya..... that's just factually 100% wrong. dude is a character. That’s why facts need to be checked. I had to go over it a couple times just to make sure I wasn’t getting it wrong myself.
artmalibu Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 2 hours ago, TaskersGhost said: BTW, "not sure what else he has to do? How about be more than perfectly mediocre in the postseason? IDK, call me crazy like you guys have, but to me a franchise QB doesn't play average ball in the postseason and rely on the defense and running games to win. But here's a straight YES or NO question for you, and very curious than answer. If after the 2026 season we look back and Allen's last 8 seasons were to mimic Newton's 8 to a T, would you consider Allen to have played to expectations? Rushing doesn't a franchise QB make. Every single franchise QB has an outstanding short-medium game. To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter. To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing. In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing. Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone. A franchise QB is one who gives a team a chance to win. By land or air I dont give a crap. 2
Alphadawg7 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Posted March 30, 2019 Quite a bit of Cam vs Allen talk in here... Allen does not project to be the same type of QB that Cam is. There are TODAY similarities, but thats not important. Whats important is the type of QB Allen projects to potentially be, and thats not Cam Newton. It resembles the Big Ben, Steve Young, John Elway type QB. Big arms with cerebral pocket awareness and movement who has the ability to beat you on any given play with his legs. He has the legs and running ability of Cam, but his style as an actual QB in the pocket is more in line with those other guys in terms of where his potential is. 3 1
Ronin Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: A franchise QB is somebody who gives their team the chance to win, week in and week out, year in and year out. He won a league mvp and went to the Superbowl He's got a winning record If Allen accomplishes in his first 8 years what cam has, he will absolutely be a success. Well, OK, that's part of our differences then. I won't be satisfied with mediocre-to-average passing TD production given what they gave up to get Allen and the opportunity costs otherwise. I'm expecting twice that TD production. If Allen can't at least perennially pitch a marginally above-average 30 TDs season, something that Newton's even done once, never having come close otherwise, in a league that has never made passing easier, I will consider that he will not even begun to approach the expectations attached to him. Success is one thing, franchise is another. As to franchise QB, that entails that the QB is the best player on his team. Newton is not. Kuechly is notably better. Otherwise I haven't looked over heir roster, but there's quite a bit of debate among Carolina fans as to whether Newton is or isn't. To me anytime there's that kind of debate, he isn't. 22 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said: the bolded is why I cant take you that seriously. its completely false. I mean I even double checked the box scores. its false. 100%.... and are you really referencing a one game sample size for barkley? and then you say "foster particularly"? foster had numerous games with allen that were better than any he had with Anderson or barkley…. how can you not feel dirty when you spout trash like this. it completely false. your lack of awareness of how bad the team was up front and around him is alarming. oh..... and I don't suppose it makes any sense that allen happened to have to MAKE time to throw because he was running for his life.... I love how you try and spin that like we had good pass pro. that's freaking joke man.... again, I don't know how you don't feel dirty when you type crap like this. basically when I said I agree with some of what you say I meant allen needs to get better and he's not blame free.... but your thoughts on this topic in particular are downright foolish. Well, OK, in your world then all those wide-open receivers that Allen didn't see last season weren't doing their jobs. OK, everyone hast their opinion. Edited March 31, 2019 by TaskersGhost
Ronin Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 22 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: This is the Zay thread. You know they give the MVP to the best football player in the world though right ? Not sure what you mean here. Newton won MVP one season. He's never even approached that distinction again and has been a below-average passer in 7 of his 8 other seasons. I'm not sure how that qualifies him to be a franchise QB. Call me crazy.
Stank_Nasty Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 23 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Well, OK, in your world then all those wide-open receivers that Allen didn't see last season weren't doing their jobs. OK, everyone hast their opinion. If I were you I would conveniently gloss over the fact I was making up false facts about wr/qb production to fit an awful argument as well. Good talk, bruh. 3 1
SouthNYfan Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said: Well, OK, that's part of our differences then. I won't be satisfied with mediocre-to-average passing TD production given what they gave up to get Allen and the opportunity costs otherwise. I'm expecting twice that TD production. If Allen can't at least perennially pitch a marginally above-average 30 TDs season, something that Newton's even done once, never having come close otherwise, in a league that has never made passing easier, I will consider that he will not even begun to approach the expectations attached to him. Success is one thing, franchise is another. As to franchise QB, that entails that the QB is the best player on his team. Newton is not. Kuechly is notably better. Otherwise I haven't looked over heir roster, but there's quite a bit of debate among Carolina fans as to whether Newton is or isn't. To me anytime there's that kind of debate, he isn't. Well, OK, in your world then all those wide-open receivers that Allen didn't see last season weren't doing their jobs. OK, everyone hast their opinion. You talk about this 30 passing td magical threshold as if rushing TDS by a QB don't count for the same # of points Newton's year by year 2011: 21 passing 14 rushing TD (35 total) 2012: 19 passing 8 rushing (27 total) 2013: 24 passing 6 rushing (30 total) 2014: 18 passing 4 rushing (22 total) (missed 2 games) 2015: 35 passing 10 rushing (45 total) 2016: 19 passing 5 rushing (24 total) (missed 2 games) 2017: 22 passing 6 rushing (28 total) 2018: 24 passing 4 rushing (28 total) (missed 2 games) He hit 30 total TDS in 3 seasons, came close in 3 others, one of which he would have without messing 2 games. That's a pretty good number. Tom Brady for reference has only eclipsed 30 TDS in 7 of his 18 seasons. Aaron Rodgers 6 of 11. Peyton 9 of 17. Brees 10 of 18. Big Ben 3 of 15. Rivers 6 of 13. I can keep going. Your "30 touchdown" stipulation isn't even met year in year out by some of the best QBs of all time. I'm not sure where you think pitching "at least 30 TDS" is "marginally above average" 58 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Not sure what you mean here. Newton won MVP one season. He's never even approached that distinction again and has been a below-average passer in 7 of his 8 other seasons. I'm not sure how that qualifies him to be a franchise QB. Call me crazy. You are crazy because you have no idea what you are talking about. Your stipulation as to why newton isn't a franchise QB doesn't even apply to the current elites. 37 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: If I were you I would conveniently gloss over the fact I was making up false facts about wr/qb production to fit an awful argument as well. Good talk, bruh. He is completely lost. Edited March 31, 2019 by SouthNYfan 1 1
Ronin Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 23 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said: Interestingly, Rivers had some similar issues his first few years. He consistently forced/pushed the ball down the field instead of taking the easy yardage. It was really chunk yardage or bail to the back at the last second. His short game numbers are actually inflated because of those swing passes and screens, which is expected when your backs are Tomlinson and Sproles. This is not a direct comparison, but rather an example of improvement. Rivers was light years ahead or Allen his first year as a starting QB. However, he was also more pro-ready coming out and sat behind Brees. The thing to take away is that these guys can learn to utilize the short game, but for gunslingers it generally occurs after some time and experience. In contrast, it’s damn near impossible to get a timid QB to improve the intermediate/deep game. Well, to your point, there isn't a single QB that came into the NFL lacking a short-medium game anywhere near to the extent that Allen struggles that ever made it to even average much less franchise status. So as I've pointed out numerous times, if Allen can do it he'll be the first. I'm just not a fan of staking my entire career on "firsts" in the NFL, much in the same way that trading up for a WR (Watkins in our case) has never been worth it. And as if we need to rehash all of our misteps as such as Bills fans, we of all fans should know about that. Otherwise agree with your post, but again, that renders what needs to be done a tall order. I mean how does one get into a QB's head to get them to take his time, scan the field, much less effectively for which the jury's entirely out right now? As I've pointed out, they tried to correct one little thing in Bledsoe to the point where they were using timers and buzzers and they couldn't even get him to get rid of the ball quickly. Imagine compounding that task several times over not to mention getting a QB that's never played like that to do it and learn it in the NFL. Again, not saying that it's not going to happen, but I'd definitely put the odds of it happening at lower than it not happening. What I would absolutely insist must be done based upon a wealth of conclusive NFL history is that he'll have to have his short-medium game make monstrous leaps and bounds going from bottom-dwelling to well above-average. Everyone talks as if merely playing a second season will automatically correct all that, which is a foolish proposition.
Dr. Who Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 23 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: He is completely lost. Yes, but he is lost with condescending aplomb, so there's that. Meanwhile, you are ignorant, don't know statistics, and don't realize Allen is epically challenged on basic skills and has little chance of even being an average qb. 1
Ronin Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 23 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said: well I think he was actually referencing barkley, not Peterman. but either way its a poor attempt and 100% WRONG. haha. Really, it's wrong? LMAO ... this is one of those comments that renders a poster ignorant. Foster in the 4 games w/o Allen: 13 catches for 330 yards, an average of 82 YPG. Foster in the other 12 games with Allen: 14 catches for 221 yards, an average of fewer than 220 YPG. OK, let's just consider the weeks after Allen came back from injury then, which is fair. In those games Foster caught 12 passes for 181 yards, an average of 60 YPG. I don't know, I learned in 1st grade math class that 82 > 60. I'll have to go back and check tho, maybe I'm wrong. LOL And let's keep in mind, one of those four non-Allen games was with Peterman, the other three were with nothing NFL QBs that hadn't played in any significant time, one having been called up from his sofa. You guys are really something else. The FACT of the matter is that there isn't a receiver on the team that performed better with Allen in there. Sorry, that's simply a fact, rage against it as you may.
aristocrat Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 33 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: You talk about this 30 passing td magical threshold as if rushing TDS by a QB don't count for the same # of points Newton's year by year 2011: 21 passing 14 rushing TD (35 total) 2012: 19 passing 8 rushing (27 total) 2013: 24 passing 6 rushing (30 total) 2014: 18 passing 4 rushing (22 total) (missed 2 games) 2015: 35 passing 10 rushing (45 total) 2016: 19 passing 5 rushing (24 total) (missed 2 games) 2017: 22 passing 6 rushing (28 total) 2018: 24 passing 4 rushing (28 total) (missed 2 games) He hit 30 total TDS in 3 seasons, came close in 3 others, one of which he would have without messing 2 games. That's a pretty good number. Tom Brady for reference has only eclipsed 30 TDS in 7 of his 18 seasons. Aaron Rodgers 6 of 11. Peyton 9 of 17. Brees 10 of 18. Big Ben 3 of 15. Rivers 6 of 13. I can keep going. Your "30 touchdown" stipulation isn't even met year in year out by some of the best QBs of all time. I'm not sure where you think pitching "at least 30 TDS" is "marginally above average" You are crazy because you have no idea what you are talking about. Your stipulation as to why newton isn't a franchise QB doesn't even apply to the current elites. He is completely lost. Excellent post 1
Teddy KGB Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Really, it's wrong? LMAO ... this is one of those comments that renders a poster ignorant. Foster in the 4 games w/o Allen: 13 catches for 330 yards, an average of 82 YPG. Foster in the other 12 games with Allen: 14 catches for 221 yards, an average of fewer than 220 YPG. OK, let's just consider the weeks after Allen came back from injury then, which is fair. In those games Foster caught 12 passes for 181 yards, an average of 60 YPG. I don't know, I learned in 1st grade math class that 82 > 60. I'll have to go back and check tho, maybe I'm wrong. LOL And let's keep in mind, one of those four non-Allen games was with Peterman, the other three were with nothing NFL QBs that hadn't played in any significant time, one having been called up from his sofa. You guys are really something else. The FACT of the matter is that there isn't a receiver on the team that performed better with Allen in there. Sorry, that's simply a fact, rage against it as you may. Trash all the rookie QBs for us and Go ! 1
Ronin Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: You talk about this 30 passing td magical threshold as if rushing TDS by a QB don't count for the same # of points Newton's year by year 2011: 21 passing 14 rushing TD (35 total) 2012: 19 passing 8 rushing (27 total) 2013: 24 passing 6 rushing (30 total) 2014: 18 passing 4 rushing (22 total) (missed 2 games) 2015: 35 passing 10 rushing (45 total) 2016: 19 passing 5 rushing (24 total) (missed 2 games) 2017: 22 passing 6 rushing (28 total) 2018: 24 passing 4 rushing (28 total) (missed 2 games) He hit 30 total TDS in 3 seasons, came close in 3 others, one of which he would have without messing 2 games. That's a pretty good number. Tom Brady for reference has only eclipsed 30 TDS in 7 of his 18 seasons. Aaron Rodgers 6 of 11. Peyton 9 of 17. Brees 10 of 18. Big Ben 3 of 15. Rivers 6 of 13. I can keep going. Your "30 touchdown" stipulation isn't even met year in year out by some of the best QBs of all time. I'm not sure where you think pitching "at least 30 TDS" is "marginally above average" You are crazy because you have no idea what you are talking about.... Your stipulation as to why newton isn't a franchise QB doesn't even apply to the current elites. He is completely lost. Look, you're belaboring this point. Newton vs. Brady now? ROFLMAO The FACT is that Newton, even with one superlative season, has averaged 22 TDs/season. To compare him as such to Brady or to any true franchise QB for that matter is ludicrous. There isn't another QB in the league that is averaging 22 TDs/season, 20 otherwise in 7 steady-state seasons, or even close, that's considered a franhise QB. Don't agree, great. Let's agree to disagree. Either way, and indisputably, Allen's short-medium game is so far from Newton's that that's a huge mountain he'll have to climb to even become what Newton is. We'll see. As with you I'm hoping, unlike you I'm doubtful. Unlike most here I don't think for a moment that what my findings and opinions are will make any difference whatsoever in whether or not it happens. Amazing how some posters get so upset to the point of ignoring reality and posting opinionated nonsense, like that Foster didn't have better production w/o Allen than with. .... and no, not referring to you, but you did quote them as a part of your argument. And BTW, it's not like Foster put up 82 ypg w/ Brees, Brady, or Rivers. He did it with nothing QBs. I mean seriously, people aren't concerned about that? I have no idea why not. 3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said: Trash all the rookie QBs for us and Go ! Boy howdy, there's an intelligent well-thought out counter to the facts. BTW, I pretty much have except for Mayfield, both before and after the draft. Edited March 31, 2019 by TaskersGhost 1
Pbomb Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, Elite Poster said: I can't believe this thread is still going. Appears it has become a trash Allen thread 2
SouthNYfan Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Yes, but he is lost with condescending aplomb, so there's that. Meanwhile, you are ignorant, don't know statistics, and don't realize Allen is epically challenged on basic skills and has little chance of even being an average qb. Please explain where I was being ignorant and not knowing stats? 14 minutes ago, aristocrat said: Excellent post Thanks 12 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Look, you're belaboring this point. Newton vs. Brady now? ROFLMAO The FACT is that Newton, even with one superlative season, has averaged 22 TDs/season. To compare him as such to Brady or to any true franchise QB for that matter is ludicrous. There isn't another QB in the league that is averaging 22 TDs/season, 20 otherwise in 7 steady-state seasons, or even close, that's considered a franhise QB. Don't agree, great. Let's agree to disagree. Either way, and indisputably, Allen's short-medium game is so far from Newton's that that's a huge mountain he'll have to climb to even become what Newton is. We'll see. As with you I'm hoping, unlike you I'm doubtful. Unlike most here I don't think for a moment that what my findings and opinions are will make any difference whatsoever in whether or not it happens. Amazing how some posters get so upset to the point of ignoring reality and posting opinionated nonsense, like that Foster didn't have better production w/o Allen than with. .... and no, not referring to you, but you did quote them as a part of your argument. And BTW, it's not like Foster put up 82 ypg w/ Brees, Brady, or Rivers. He did it with nothing QBs. I mean seriously, people aren't concerned about that? I have no idea why not. Where did I compare newton to Brady? As usual you ignore the point of the post to run your own tangential narrative. You stated that a franchise QB MUST PERENNIALLY HAVE 30TDS A SEASON, which is "marginally above average" I provided factual evidence that even the best QBs of all time and of the current generation are only doing it about 35-45% of the time with Ben doing it in only 3 of his 15 seasons. You also blatantly ignored the point that newton provides a significant bonus the others do not, short yardage running options and a significant # of rushing TDs. A rushing TD is still 6 points last I checked, so you have to count those for him towards his overall total. He has 182 passing and 58 rushing TDs in 8 seasons. Know that that averages out to?? Exactly 30 TDs a season. Math isn't your strong suit. There are plenty of reasons to argue why cam isn't on the same level as Brady, Rivers, Rodgers (because he isn't), but he's still a franchise QB, and if you're saying any guy who isn't Brees, Rodgers, Brady level isn't considered a franchise QB then that's fine, but maybe you should use something other than arbitrary TD totals that you came up with to separate them from the pack, since Cam actually bests Brady (27.77 combined TDs), ben (26.2 combined), Rivers (28.92 combined), and falls slightly behind Peyton (32 combined), Brees (31.8 combined) and Rodgers (32.8 combined) 4 minutes ago, Pbomb said: Appears it has become a trash Allen thread Pretty amazing right? 1
JoeF Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 Happy Belated Birthday, Zay. Turned 24 yesterday. Zay has become one of the boards favorite targets of ire. I understand the criticism for the drops, the gaining yards at garbage time, etc, but his stats for the last five games last year were 19 catches, 260 yards and 5 TDs That's an 800 yard, 15 TD season... He improved as Josh improved and became a favored red zone target. The Bills will build around Zay, Foster, Beasley, Brown and 1st 3 round rookie -- not cut Zay.
Doc Posted March 31, 2019 Posted March 31, 2019 46 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Well, to your point, there isn't a single QB that came into the NFL lacking a short-medium game anywhere near to the extent that Allen struggles that ever made it to even average much less franchise status. So as I've pointed out numerous times, if Allen can do it he'll be the first. I'm just not a fan of staking my entire career on "firsts" in the NFL, much in the same way that trading up for a WR (Watkins in our case) has never been worth it. And as if we need to rehash all of our misteps as such as Bills fans, we of all fans should know about that. Otherwise agree with your post, but again, that renders what needs to be done a tall order. I mean how does one get into a QB's head to get them to take his time, scan the field, much less effectively for which the jury's entirely out right now? As I've pointed out, they tried to correct one little thing in Bledsoe to the point where they were using timers and buzzers and they couldn't even get him to get rid of the ball quickly. Imagine compounding that task several times over not to mention getting a QB that's never played like that to do it and learn it in the NFL. Again, not saying that it's not going to happen, but I'd definitely put the odds of it happening at lower than it not happening. What I would absolutely insist must be done based upon a wealth of conclusive NFL history is that he'll have to have his short-medium game make monstrous leaps and bounds going from bottom-dwelling to well above-average. Everyone talks as if merely playing a second season will automatically correct all that, which is a foolish proposition. I saw Allen eschew many short passes in favor of of looking for the bigger play, presumably because he knew he was a one-man show. Again it's easier to teach a QB to take the short stuff than it is to teach them to keep their eyes downfield. And with the addition of Beasley, he'll know he needs to take those more often. 2
Recommended Posts