Ronin Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: I dunno cam is a pretty decent one man show Mvp and a Superbowl trip ? Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho. Besides, in those playoffs he had one good passing game, against Arizona. He wasn't good in the other two.
Alphadawg7 Posted March 30, 2019 Author Posted March 30, 2019 10 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said: I was able to flip Zay for a first rounder in Madden last night, so clearly the trade market is there hahaha kudos, that was funny
John from Riverside Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho. Besides, in those playoffs he had one good passing game, against Arizona. He wasn't good in the other two. LOL.....just LOL 2
Teddy KGB Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho. Lmao. Imagine saying this about an MVP ?? 1 1
Mike in Horseheads Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said: Lmao. Imagine saying this about an MVP ?? Thats right out of Boyst mouth too 2
Doc Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 3 hours ago, TaskersGhost said: You'll get little argument from me on Clay, most overrated TE we've had in years. BUT, he's not nearly as bad as the 2.3 catches/game he had with Allen throwing. Hell, he averaged 3.8 catches/game with Taylor and whom, Fitz? Everyone's receiving numbers went down with Allen on the field. As exciting as Allen was to watch, and this isn't going to float well here, but it wasn't team ball. He tried to be a one man show. Last time a QB like that became a franchise QB was never, at least not in the modern era. True, it wasn't team ball. Because they had no running game, which is a young QB's best friend. As for Clay, his best days are behind him. My lasting impression of him will be him feebly trying to catch what would have been the game-winning pass in the 1st Dols game. 3
Stank_Nasty Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, TaskersGhost said: You'll get little argument from me on Clay, most overrated TE we've had in years. BUT, he's not nearly as bad as the 2.3 catches/game he had with Allen throwing. Hell, he averaged 3.8 catches/game with Taylor and whom, Fitz? Everyone's receiving numbers went down with Allen on the field. As exciting as Allen was to watch, and this isn't going to float well here, but it wasn't team ball. He tried to be a one man show. Last time a QB like that became a franchise QB was never, at least not in the modern era. How is one supposed to play “team ball” with an awful offensive line, absolutely no freaking run game, and extremely underwhelming talent around him? Those last 6 games, Allen was polishing that turd of an offense as best as he could given the circumstances. He was a one man offense out of NECESSITY. it’s troubling to me that you can’t really see that. The thing is.... I agree with a lot of what you say but your comments about his supporting cast through this thread have been so crazy bad. That’s just hard to get passed for me. 7 hours ago, Doc said: True, it wasn't team ball. Because they had no running game, which is a young QB's best friend. As for Clay, his best days are behind him. My lasting impression of him will be him feebly trying to catch what would have been the game-winning pass in the 1st Dols game. There’s a montage of timely drops that goes through my head when he comes to mind.... add one that went through his hands for a pick in the endzone in the 17 opener vs the jets. Or the pathetic drop he had up in foxboro the play before the KB “no catch” .... turns out that Miami drop may have been the most impactful play he’s ever “made” for us. Saved us 9 draft slots if I’m not mistaken. if i went digging for a brief spell I’m sure I could find plenty more examples for clay. Allen was a one man show because he had to be. Anyone that couldn’t see that needs to find another sport watch for sure. Edited March 30, 2019 by Stank_Nasty 2 1
SouthNYfan Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 8 hours ago, TaskersGhost said: Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho. Besides, in those playoffs he had one good passing game, against Arizona. He wasn't good in the other two. Wow. Just wow 8 hours ago, John from Riverside said: LOL.....just LOL I can't even LoL at it... It's that absurd I'm just like... At a loss... 8 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: Lmao. Imagine saying this about an MVP ?? Right!? Not sure what else he has to do. 1
Ronin Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said: The thing is.... I agree with a lot of what you say but your comments about his supporting cast through this thread have been so crazy bad. That’s just hard to get passed for me. There are a lot of statements out there implying, suggesting, and otherwise outright stating things about the team that simply aren't true. They never provide the statistical/factual basis for making them as if a narrative trumps reality. No matter how many times I point them out the people making those comments simply ignore them. Yes, there were some issues with the team, he could have had better receivers, etc., but ONCE AGAIN, we were generally not THE worst in all of them. Rosen, Darnold, Jackson also didn't have great "weapons." Lots said about how hurried Allen was to throw, but statistically he had more time-to-throw than ANY QB in this league, by a statistical country mile even. People continually talk about dropped passes as if we're the worst when the truth is that we're pretty near average. So in comps drops can't explain differences. But, AND AGAIN, why did ALL of our receivers do so much worse with Allen than with Anderson and Barkley, neither of whom even played recently or even before we signed them. What, are they so great that it explains all that. Say what you want, but you too are implying that none of it is Allen's fault on one hand, and then say you agree with a lot of what I say. If you agree with a lot of what I say about Allen, then who cares about the rest. The only reason I bring it up is usually because someone else has stated the contrary with a narrative suggesting that Allen had so much less to work with than any other QB in the league. Again, it's all irrelevant, our receivers (WR, TE, RBs, doesn't matter) ALL categorically did less with Allen throwing. Foster particularly. That's a fact, if it's true, the rest really doesn't matter.
BillsBlue Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 On 2/27/2019 at 3:46 PM, Alphadawg7 said: I could be wrong, but this is just what I believe based on the additions I expect Beane to make in the WR room. I have no issues if others don't agree, just my opinion on the matter, nothing more. I have consistently said this all off season, and McDermott just said something again that enforces that belief. I think they see how the Rams cleared out their WR room and so did the Bears and in both cases their young QB's took big strides as passers. Eagles did the same for Wentz too. "We're looking for guys that can get open and catch the ball." Yes, that is an obvious trait for any WR, but also its telling that he and Beane keep making these comments given the struggles all year, including Zay, to do these very basic things. I think the WR room will be crowded once free agency and the draft is over (likely 2 to 3 additions) and Zay is going to be someone who has to really impress in camp to make this roster. Right now, there is not one part of being a wide receiver that Zay does particularly well outside of his reported good work ethic. Hands: Struggles catching the ball. Makes easy catches look hard and drops too many passes. Separation: Has struggled to get separation, especially playing on the outside. Route Running: Part of his issue with getting separation is his inconsistent route running. Speed: He has average speed. He is fast enough to play in the league, but to be consistent with his speed he needs to be a good route runner. Physicality: He is easily man handled by physical corners. Games like the Lions and Pats this year he was dominated physically for example. Contested Catches: One of the weakest part of his game. Catch Radius: Very limited mostly due to his inconsistent hands and lack of physicality. Foster: Penciled in as a projected #2 WR. However, if we bring in a potential starter in FA and also draft one early, then Foster is no lock for #2 and could be used more out of the slot or as a deep threat. Additionally, if we draft say Metcalf or make a splashy trade for someone like Brown (less likely), then Duke could make a real challenge for #2 as a big catch radius compliment to a #1 who poses a real deep threat opposite him. Duke: He has to prove himself in the NFL, I get that. But if we take an honest assessment of him, his issues were never talent related. He isn't a speed burner, but he has a big catch radius, runs good routes, and has great hands. He could legit compete for the #2 opposite a big play #1. Even if not a #2, its more than reasonable he has a legit shot to make this team and compete for minutes. Zay: Best suited for the slot, however his lack of consistent hands and his issues with separation make his spot there vulnerable. If our top 2 WR's this next season dont include Foster, then I can easily see Foster challenging to play in the slot, and he already has surpassed Zay. We are adding at least 2 additonal WR's (and maybe 3) this offseason expected to start or compete to start to go along with the 3 guys already here. With McD and Beanes consistent comments about getting open and catching the ball, I think Zay is in trouble and will be a training camp or preseason trade for a 4th round or conditional 5th round pick. no sir this year he kicks it up another notch and cements his spot on the roster i see a good 3 2 touchdown games from him this year
Ronin Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 9 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: Lmao. Imagine saying this about an MVP ?? BTW, allow me to ask, which of Newton's passing seasons back up the notion that he's a franchise QB to you? Just curious. And here's a list; https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm I'll even summarize the seasons: 21 TDs, 17 INTs, 4,051 Yards 19/12, 3,869 24/13, 3,379 18/12, 3,127 35/10, 3,837 19/14, 3,509 22/16, 3,302 24/13, 3,395 As I see it, withone exception, he's a tremendously average passer, low TD/INT rate, average or worse TD production, high INT%, he's known for being a poor leader and numerous other things. I think this at least explains the low standards here however. One solid season does not a franchise QB make. I can name dozens of QBs with one great season that were never even considered for that status. Easily. If all we get from Allen in 7 of every 8 seasons is TD production of 18-24 TDs, well, continue to laugh, but again, I can see why some seem to think that Allen's better than he is at the moment.
artmalibu Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: BTW, allow me to ask, which of Newton's passing seasons back up the notion that he's a franchise QB to you? Just curious. And here's a list; https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm I'll even summarize the seasons: 21 TDs, 17 INTs, 4,051 Yards 19/12, 3,869 24/13, 3,379 18/12, 3,127 35/10, 3,837 19/14, 3,509 22/16, 3,302 24/13, 3,395 As I see it, withone exception, he's a tremendously average passer, low TD/INT rate, average or worse TD production, high INT%, he's known for being a poor leader and numerous other things. I think this at least explains the low standards here however. One solid season does not a franchise QB make. I can name dozens of QBs with one great season that were never even considered for that status. Easily. If all we get from Allen in 7 of every 8 seasons is TD production of 18-24 TDs, well, continue to laugh, but again, I can see why some seem to think that Allen's better than he is at the moment. 11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: When you add his rushing production it changes things a bit.... 1
Ronin Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said: Right!? Not sure what else he has to do. BTW, "not sure what else he has to do? How about be more than perfectly mediocre in the postseason? IDK, call me crazy like you guys have, but to me a franchise QB doesn't play average ball in the postseason and rely on the defense and running games to win. But here's a straight YES or NO question for you, and very curious than answer. If after the 2026 season we look back and Allen's last 8 seasons were to mimic Newton's 8 to a T, would you consider Allen to have played to expectations? 33 minutes ago, artmalibu said: When you add his rushing production it changes things a bit.... Rushing doesn't a franchise QB make. Every single franchise QB has an outstanding short-medium game. To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter. To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing. In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing. Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone. Edited March 30, 2019 by TaskersGhost
SouthNYfan Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: BTW, "not sure what else he has to do? How about be more than perfectly mediocre in the postseason? IDK, call me crazy like you guys have, but to me a franchise QB doesn't play average ball in the postseason and rely on the defense and running games to win. But here's a straight YES or NO question for you, and very curious than answer. If after the 2026 season we look back and Allen's last 8 seasons were to mimic Newton's 8 to a T, would you consider Allen to have played to expectations? Rushing doesn't a franchise QB make. Every single franchise QB has an outstanding short-medium game. To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter. To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing. In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing. Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone. A franchise QB is somebody who gives their team the chance to win, week in and week out, year in and year out. He won a league mvp and went to the Superbowl He's got a winning record If Allen accomplishes in his first 8 years what cam has, he will absolutely be a success. 1
Stank_Nasty Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said: There are a lot of statements out there implying, suggesting, and otherwise outright stating things about the team that simply aren't true. They never provide the statistical/factual basis for making them as if a narrative trumps reality. No matter how many times I point them out the people making those comments simply ignore them. Yes, there were some issues with the team, he could have had better receivers, etc., but ONCE AGAIN, we were generally not THE worst in all of them. Rosen, Darnold, Jackson also didn't have great "weapons." Lots said about how hurried Allen was to throw, but statistically he had more time-to-throw than ANY QB in this league, by a statistical country mile even. People continually talk about dropped passes as if we're the worst when the truth is that we're pretty near average. So in comps drops can't explain differences. But, AND AGAIN, why did ALL of our receivers do so much worse with Allen than with Anderson and Barkley, neither of whom even played recently or even before we signed them. What, are they so great that it explains all that. Say what you want, but you too are implying that none of it is Allen's fault on one hand, and then say you agree with a lot of what I say. If you agree with a lot of what I say about Allen, then who cares about the rest. The only reason I bring it up is usually because someone else has stated the contrary with a narrative suggesting that Allen had so much less to work with than any other QB in the league. Again, it's all irrelevant, our receivers (WR, TE, RBs, doesn't matter) ALL categorically did less with Allen throwing. Foster particularly. That's a fact, if it's true, the rest really doesn't matter. the bolded is why I cant take you that seriously. its completely false. I mean I even double checked the box scores. its false. 100%.... and are you really referencing a one game sample size for barkley? and then you say "foster particularly"? foster had numerous games with allen that were better than any he had with Anderson or barkley…. how can you not feel dirty when you spout trash like this. it completely false. your lack of awareness of how bad the team was up front and around him is alarming. oh..... and I don't suppose it makes any sense that allen happened to have to MAKE time to throw because he was running for his life.... I love how you try and spin that like we had good pass pro. that's freaking joke man.... again, I don't know how you don't feel dirty when you type crap like this. basically when I said I agree with some of what you say I meant allen needs to get better and he's not blame free.... but your thoughts on this topic in particular are downright foolish. 1 1 1
Teddy KGB Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said: BTW, allow me to ask, which of Newton's passing seasons back up the notion that he's a franchise QB to you? Just curious. And here's a list; https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm I'll even summarize the seasons: 21 TDs, 17 INTs, 4,051 Yards 19/12, 3,869 24/13, 3,379 18/12, 3,127 35/10, 3,837 19/14, 3,509 22/16, 3,302 24/13, 3,395 As I see it, withone exception, he's a tremendously average passer, low TD/INT rate, average or worse TD production, high INT%, he's known for being a poor leader and numerous other things. I think this at least explains the low standards here however. One solid season does not a franchise QB make. I can name dozens of QBs with one great season that were never even considered for that status. Easily. If all we get from Allen in 7 of every 8 seasons is TD production of 18-24 TDs, well, continue to laugh, but again, I can see why some seem to think that Allen's better than he is at the moment. This is the Zay thread. You know they give the MVP to the best football player in the world though right ? 2
Buffalo Junction Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter. To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing. In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing. Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone. Interestingly, Rivers had some similar issues his first few years. He consistently forced/pushed the ball down the field instead of taking the easy yardage. It was really chunk yardage or bail to the back at the last second. His short game numbers are actually inflated because of those swing passes and screens, which is expected when your backs are Tomlinson and Sproles. This is not a direct comparison, but rather an example of improvement. Rivers was light years ahead or Allen his first year as a starting QB. However, he was also more pro-ready coming out and sat behind Brees. The thing to take away is that these guys can learn to utilize the short game, but for gunslingers it generally occurs after some time and experience. In contrast, it’s damn near impossible to get a timid QB to improve the intermediate/deep game. Edited March 30, 2019 by Buffalo Junction 2
Doc Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said: There are a lot of statements out there implying, suggesting, and otherwise outright stating things about the team that simply aren't true. They never provide the statistical/factual basis for making them as if a narrative trumps reality. No matter how many times I point them out the people making those comments simply ignore them. Yes, there were some issues with the team, he could have had better receivers, etc., but ONCE AGAIN, we were generally not THE worst in all of them. Rosen, Darnold, Jackson also didn't have great "weapons." Lots said about how hurried Allen was to throw, but statistically he had more time-to-throw than ANY QB in this league, by a statistical country mile even. People continually talk about dropped passes as if we're the worst when the truth is that we're pretty near average. So in comps drops can't explain differences. But, AND AGAIN, why did ALL of our receivers do so much worse with Allen than with Anderson and Barkley, neither of whom even played recently or even before we signed them. What, are they so great that it explains all that. Say what you want, but you too are implying that none of it is Allen's fault on one hand, and then say you agree with a lot of what I say. If you agree with a lot of what I say about Allen, then who cares about the rest. The only reason I bring it up is usually because someone else has stated the contrary with a narrative suggesting that Allen had so much less to work with than any other QB in the league. Again, it's all irrelevant, our receivers (WR, TE, RBs, doesn't matter) ALL categorically did less with Allen throwing. Foster particularly. That's a fact, if it's true, the rest really doesn't matter. The bolded part is flat-out wrong. You need to check your facts there, especially your prior claim that Foster did better with Peterman and Anderson. As for the other stuff, the WR's and OL were among the worst units in the league. Does it make a difference that they weren't the worst? No, the combination was more than enough to sink the offense. And Jackson and Darnold had better OL and weapons around them and Jackson had a running game outside of what he provided. And the drops were plentiful. And he had the most time to throw because he was avoiding the rush, not because the OL was blocking well. Throw-in that he didn't get more than 3rd string reps all off-season, on real help from his QB coach and no real veteran QB presence until mid-season and it's no wonder he struggled. 2 2
Stank_Nasty Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Doc said: The bolded part is flat-out wrong. You need to check your facts there, especially your prior claim that Foster did better with Peterman and Anderson. As for the other stuff, the WR's and OL were among the worst units in the league. Does it make a difference that they weren't the worst? No, the combination was more than enough to sink the offense. And Jackson and Darnold had better OL and weapons around them and Jackson had a running game outside of what he provided. And the drops were plentiful. And he had the most time to throw because he was avoiding the rush, not because the OL was blocking well. well I think he was actually referencing barkley, not Peterman. but either way its a poor attempt and 100% WRONG. haha. Edited March 30, 2019 by Stank_Nasty
Doc Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: well I think he was actually referencing barkley, not Peterman. but either way its a poor attempt and 100% WRONG. haha. No, in another post he said (I'm paraphrasing) that "people aren't even aware of the fact that he was better with Peterman, Anderson and Barkley than Allen..." when he didn't even play with Anderson and played just a half with Peterman and had no catches. 1
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