Alphadawg7 Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 41 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Also, one of Jones' two best and only noteworthy games was against the Jets with Barkley throwing. The other was that emotionally-charged Fins game to end the season where the entire team was playing on all cylinders against an apathetic Miami team. Jones averaged 5.25 catches for 48 yards in four games w/o Allen, which included games featuring one game with Barkley, two with Anderson, and one with Peterman. He averaged fewer than 3 catches for 38 yards with Allen. . He's clearly not Allen's favorite target. I see Beasley doing better. You see Jones making the team over Foster? interesting take. Curious the logic there. I see with Beasley on board Jones not getting many reps. Same role except that Beasley actually catches the balls thrown contrasted with Jones who ranks near the bottom, AHEM, alongside John Brown, for horrific catch %. Methinks that they had better draft at least two WRs in rounds 3 & 4. I'd say 1/2 but we need OL-men so badly first. Agreed and just to point out, SouthNYfan is not the one who said Foster was on the bubble, he was mocking that notion. It was Over 29 years of fanhood that said that. Another thing that is a false positive on Jones was his week 16 game where he was atrocious. The stat box got saved with a 31 yard TD on a broken play gimme with 1 minute left in the game down 3 scores. Prior to that he was at 4 catches for 36 yards and was utterly dominated physically the whole game the NE corners. Was one of his worst games of the year, but people keep counting it as a "good" game because of a worthless free gimme TD when the game was over. Weeks 14, 15 and 16 were some of the worst play of Zays career. Meanwhile Foster was having a strong stretch of games with Allen over the back part of the season. 1
SouthNYfan Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said: Also, one of Jones' two best and only noteworthy games was against the Jets with Barkley throwing. The other was that emotionally-charged Fins game to end the season where the entire team was playing on all cylinders against an apathetic Miami team. Jones averaged 5.25 catches for 48 yards in four games w/o Allen, which included games featuring one game with Barkley, two with Anderson, and one with Peterman. He averaged fewer than 3 catches for 38 yards with Allen. . He's clearly not Allen's favorite target. I see Beasley doing better. You see Jones making the team over Foster? interesting take. Curious the logic there. I see with Beasley on board Jones not getting many reps. Same role except that Beasley actually catches the balls thrown contrasted with Jones who ranks near the bottom, AHEM, alongside John Brown, for horrific catch %. Methinks that they had better draft at least two WRs in rounds 3 & 4. I'd say 1/2 but we need OL-men so badly first. I think you should reread my post, my dude. I don't think either will be cut by day 1 (barring injury or a big rookie being drafted) but if I had to pick one, it's going to be Zay getting the axe. I think the only 3 wrs that are a current lock are: Beasley Brown Foster The rest are fighting for a spot, with Zay being the favorite only due to his familiarity with the system. 29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Agreed and just to point out, SouthNYfan is not the one who said Foster was on the bubble, he was mocking that notion. It was Over 29 years of fanhood that said that. Another thing that is a false positive on Jones was his week 16 game where he was atrocious. The stat box got saved with a 31 yard TD on a broken play gimme with 1 minute left in the game down 3 scores. Prior to that he was at 4 catches for 36 yards and was utterly dominated physically the whole game the NE corners. Was one of his worst games of the year, but people keep counting it as a "good" game because of a worthless free gimme TD when the game was over. Weeks 14, 15 and 16 were some of the worst play of Zays career. Meanwhile Foster was having a strong stretch of games with Allen over the back part of the season. Thanks dude. 1
Ronin Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Agreed and just to point out, SouthNYfan is not the one who said Foster was on the bubble, he was mocking that notion. It was Over 29 years of fanhood that said that. Another thing that is a false positive on Jones was his week 16 game where he was atrocious. The stat box got saved with a 31 yard TD on a broken play gimme with 1 minute left in the game down 3 scores. Prior to that he was at 4 catches for 36 yards and was utterly dominated physically the whole game the NE corners. Was one of his worst games of the year, but people keep counting it as a "good" game because of a worthless free gimme TD when the game was over. Weeks 14, 15 and 16 were some of the worst play of Zays career. Meanwhile Foster was having a strong stretch of games with Allen over the back part of the season. Fully agree that Jones is a garbage-time master, on both ends, routing and playing-from-behind. He was like that at EC too. He's far from being a clutch/impact player. As to Foster, his biggest plays as well were on broken coverages. One I just mentioned, forget the game, but his 75-yarder, was on a misread by the FS as he went uncovered on the early part of the route. I'm not sold that Foster is bad, but he definitely needs to show that he can catch regularly in coverage/man-to-man. Here's the thing re: Foster, like everyone else, he posted three of his four big games w/ Allen out, featuring Barkley in one, Peterman in another, and Anderson in the other two, not even any continuity. Still, in those four games he posted 13 catches for 330 yards for an average of 3 catches for 82 yards. Under Allen he had 14 catches for 211 yards for an average of about 1 catch for fewer than 20 yards/game. Everyone just looks at the bottom-line stats and discounts the how or why they're there. Remember, Allen, other than his two games vs. Miami, averaged a pathetic 162 yards/game otherwise. I don't care how you spread out 162 yards and one TD every other game, major-league improvement has to be made in Allen's game and it's his short-medium game that are going to have to fill in the gaps, not more deep stuff. Either way, when the team averages 215 yards and posts its two best passing games of the season featuring four different QBs, none of which have played regularly or recently besides Peterman, but under Allen it averages over 40 yards-per-game less, then I would think that that's an issue that can't be as easily overstepped as most are doing here.
John from Riverside Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: 27 catches in 13 GP.... WOW Marquise Goodwin had three 100 yd games one year too. Zay is ahead of Foster on the depth chart. Zay is one of the players getting snaps ahead of him Brown signing put foster on the bubble. not sure how else to explain this. You are out of your damn mind 1 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 20 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Brown and Beasley are locks because of their signings. Brown > Foster who is not a lock if he can’t do things other than run fast Zay is an NFL WR. Duke is a CFL WR, absolutely not a lock. He hasn’t proven a thing in the league. Zay is still the most versatile WR on the Bills. Roberts May be a lock, depending on how good the rest of his game is (ST defending and WR) to me cerainty of being on the roster follows this sequence 1 being most likely, last being least: Likely: 1. Cole 2. Brown 3. Zay 4. Roberts 5. Foster Outside looking In: Isaiah / Duke / Scott / Ray ray / v Boldin / Phillips 2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: So to be clear, you’re pinning those there to show that you’re claiming FOSTER won’t make the team right? Arguing without even remembering the foundation of the argument Beta dog? .... ?♂️
SouthNYfan Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Fully agree that Jones is a garbage-time master, on both ends, routing and playing-from-behind. He was like that at EC too. He's far from being a clutch/impact player. As to Foster, his biggest plays as well were on broken coverages. One I just mentioned, forget the game, but his 75-yarder, was on a misread by the FS as he went uncovered on the early part of the route. I'm not sold that Foster is bad, but he definitely needs to show that he can catch regularly in coverage/man-to-man. Here's the thing re: Foster, like everyone else, he posted three of his four big games w/ Allen out, featuring Barkley in one, Peterman in another, and Anderson in the other two, not even any continuity. Still, in those four games he posted 13 catches for 330 yards for an average of 3 catches for 82 yards. Under Allen he had 14 catches for 211 yards for an average of about 1 catch for fewer than 20 yards/game. Everyone just looks at the bottom-line stats and discounts the how or why they're there. Remember, Allen, other than his two games vs. Miami, averaged a pathetic 162 yards/game otherwise. I don't care how you spread out 162 yards and one TD every other game, major-league improvement has to be made in Allen's game and it's his short-medium game that are going to have to fill in the gaps, not more deep stuff. Either way, when the team averages 215 yards and posts its two best passing games of the season featuring four different QBs, none of which have played regularly or recently besides Peterman, but under Allen it averages over 40 yards-per-game less, then I would think that that's an issue that can't be as easily overstepped as most are doing here. Broken coverages happen all the time. You're acting like we shouldn't count Foster's statistics on plays that the defense broke down Come on dude. 2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You are out of your damn mind John. We agree. The world is coming to an end ? 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Arguing without even remembering the foundation of the argument Beta dog? .... ?♂️ Bro. You said Zay is above Foster and has a better chance of making the team. 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You are out of your damn mind That may or may not be true, but either way somehow overnight a guy with 27 catches became Jerry Rice... Edited March 28, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood
John from Riverside Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 All I know is this..... 1st half of season Foster was crap......but 2nd half season Foster was literally a borderline pro bowl player He has size....speed.....and a QB that can get him the ball...he goin NOWHERE 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: That may or may not be true, but either way somehow overnight a guy with 27 catches became Jerry Rice... You really need to look deeper then that on this player 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 14 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Fully agree that Jones is a garbage-time master, on both ends, routing and playing-from-behind. He was like that at EC too. He's far from being a clutch/impact player. As to Foster, his biggest plays as well were on broken coverages. One I just mentioned, forget the game, but his 75-yarder, was on a misread by the FS as he went uncovered on the early part of the route. I'm not sold that Foster is bad, but he definitely needs to show that he can catch regularly in coverage/man-to-man. Here's the thing re: Foster, like everyone else, he posted three of his four big games w/ Allen out, featuring Barkley in one, Peterman in another, and Anderson in the other two, not even any continuity. Still, in those four games he posted 13 catches for 330 yards for an average of 3 catches for 82 yards. Under Allen he had 14 catches for 211 yards for an average of about 1 catch for fewer than 20 yards/game. Everyone just looks at the bottom-line stats and discounts the how or why they're there. Remember, Allen, other than his two games vs. Miami, averaged a pathetic 162 yards/game otherwise. I don't care how you spread out 162 yards and one TD every other game, major-league improvement has to be made in Allen's game and it's his short-medium game that are going to have to fill in the gaps, not more deep stuff. Either way, when the team averages 215 yards and posts its two best passing games of the season featuring four different QBs, none of which have played regularly or recently besides Peterman, but under Allen it averages over 40 yards-per-game less, then I would think that that's an issue that can't be as easily overstepped as most are doing here. Nicely done- you must actually watch the games and understand what you see. Refrshing in this thread. 7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: All I know is this..... 1st half of season Foster was crap......but 2nd half season Foster was literally a borderline pro bowl player He has size....speed.....and a QB that can get him the ball...he goin NOWHERE You really need to look deeper then that on this player Ok let’s review his college performance. Go ahead I’ll wait...
John from Riverside Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Nicely done- you must actually watch the games and understand what you see. Refrshing in this thread. Ok let’s review his college performance. Go ahead I’ll wait... Please explain how college performance has ANYTHING to do with the NFL 2
Ronin Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: I think you should reread my post, my dude. I don't think either will be cut by day 1 (barring injury or a big rookie being drafted) but if I had to pick one, it's going to be Zay getting the axe. I think the only 3 wrs that are a current lock are: Beasley Brown Foster The rest are fighting for a spot, with Zay being the favorite only due to his familiarity with the system. Easy there chief, that's why I was asking. Agree with you on Jones, in fact, I don't think he survives the season here and if we draft a WR(s) in rounds 1-5, I'm guessing he has to fight for a roster spot. Beasley's presence has made him expendable to the extent that he had any value otherwise. As I've pointed out, he didn't do well with Allen under center when he averaged fewer than 3 catches for fewer than 40 yards-per-game and below 50% catch%. That doesn't bode well. Agree on the WRs with a lock. Having said that, I'm not sold that any will outdo their season averages under a QB that averaged a mere 170 or so passing yards-per-game last season. Unless of course there's a massive uptick in those numbers. 1
John from Riverside Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 1 minute ago, TaskersGhost said: Easy there chief, that's why I was asking. Agree with you on Jones, in fact, I don't think he survives the season here and if we draft a WR(s) in rounds 1-5, I'm guessing he has to fight for a roster spot. Beasley's presence has made him expendable to the extent that he had any value otherwise. As I've pointed out, he didn't do well with Allen under center when he averaged fewer than 3 catches for fewer than 40 yards-per-game and below 50% catch%. That doesn't bode well. Agree on the WRs with a lock. Having said that, I'm not sold that any will outdo their season averages under a QB that averaged a mere 170 or so passing yards-per-game last season. Unless of course there's a massive uptick in those numbers. Unless of course you know raw rookie QB actually continues to develop It has happened before....and frankly what the bills were counting on soooooo 1
Ronin Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 47 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: Broken coverages happen all the time. You're acting like we shouldn't count Foster's statistics on plays that the defense broke down Come on dude. Context. They do, but when a player's few biggest plays are on them it's not proof that that player, in this case a WR, can routinely put up those numbers w/o having broken coverages. Anyone can run downfield, have a coverage break down, make a catch for a TD. It's altogether a different ballgame, pun intended, to do so man-to-man while actually outplaying the defender. Quite simple. 39 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Nicely done- you must actually watch the games and understand what you see. Refrshing in this thread. I'm finding a few of the comments refreshing today, yours included. They're still surrounded by the typical emotionally-led tripe, nonetheless. Also, good stat splits also lay some of this out factually as well, so there's that too. 1
Ronin Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Unless of course you know raw rookie QB actually continues to develop It has happened before....and frankly what the bills were counting on soooooo So because it's happened before means that it's a shoe-in here? Apparently that's your point. OK, if you think that's a wise take. Fair enough otherwise, but no matter how one looks at it, he still has miles to go to become an even average passer. Even taking just his last 6 games he averaged 51.9% compl., lower than his first 6 games, a mere 207 yards/game passing, and with the exception of that last Miami games still sucked in the Red Zone. I can see it happening but it's hardly a shoe-in that you seem to be insisting that it is. The leap that he has to make to hit franchise status as a passer is astronomical by NFL standards. The odds are not favorable, again, not to say that it's impossible, but he would be in record-breaking territory if he does it based upon last season's measurables. That's regarding Allen. As I've laid out, Jones played much better under Anderson, Barkley, and Peterman for four games. Hardly Brees, Brady, and Rodgers there. Edited March 28, 2019 by TaskersGhost
John from Riverside Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: So because it's happened before means that it's a shoe-in here? Apparently that's your point. OK, if you think that's a wise take. Fair enough otherwise, but no matter how one looks at it, he still has miles to go to become an even average passer. Even taking just his last 6 games he averaged 51.9% compl., lower than his first 6 games, a mere 207 yards/game passing, and with the exception of that last Miami games still sucked in the Red Zone. I can see it happening but it's hardly a shoe-in that you seem to be insisting that it is. The leap that he has to make to hit franchise status as a passer is astronomical by NFL standards. The odds are not favorable, again, not to say that it's impossible, but he would be in record-breaking territory if he does it based upon last season's measurables. That's regarding Allen. As I've laid out, Jones played much better under Anderson, Barkley, and Peterman for four games. Hardly Brees, Brady, and Rodgers there. My point is.....Allen was drafted based off the potential of what he could become.....and frankly was better in year 1 then I expected him to be (after he came back from injury) Rookie first year QBs tend to struggle....and Allen had his share. Rookie 1st year QBs also tend to get better when they have incredible raw talent and a team willing to vest in their future. No running game.......lots of scrambling out of trouble...... a FIVE MINUTE VIDEO of WR's dropping balls they should be catching.......do I really need to go on here? The answer is no....I am not going to auto expect failure.....not when the team is obviously looking to invest in the talent around him. 1
SouthNYfan Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 19 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said: Context. They do, but when a player's few biggest plays are on them it's not proof that that player, in this case a WR, can routinely put up those numbers w/o having broken coverages. Anyone can run downfield, have a coverage break down, make a catch for a TD. It's altogether a different ballgame, pun intended, to do so man-to-man while actually outplaying the defender. Quite simple. I'm finding a few of the comments refreshing today, yours included. They're still surrounded by the typical emotionally-led tripe, nonetheless. Also, good stat splits also lay some of this out factually as well, so there's that too. I don't disagree with a whole with your thought process, but I think diminishing Foster into "his stats were because the defense messed up" is a bit simplified We can agree that he's at least shown enough to warrant him being on the roster this year, and that he goes into the season clearly locked ahead of Zay and behind brown and Beasley 1
DuckyBoys Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 if the Bills can get anything for Jones he'll be gone Think its time to admit he was not worth a early 2nd round pick and move on. To be honest I re read his scouting report and the Bills must have greatly over valued his college production and pedigree
3rdand12 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said: if the Bills can get anything for Jones he'll be gone Think its time to admit he was not worth a early 2nd round pick and move on. To be honest I re read his scouting report and the Bills must have greatly over valued his college production and pedigree oversold by the WR coach we picked up and is now gone perhaps ?? : )
DuckyBoys Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said: oversold by the WR coach we picked up and is now gone perhaps ?? : ) Think he sticks as a depth player for 2019 if they dont draft a wr early or trade for a wr. Beane mentioned liking having extra cap space to handle being able to trade for a bigger salaried player. We could still see a trade for a true #1 WR or edge rusher before or maybe during the draft. He isnt hot garbage just not a nfl starter and certainly not worth where he was selected.
Ronin Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: My point is.....Allen was drafted based off the potential of what he could become.....and frankly was better in year 1 then I expected him to be (after he came back from injury) Rookie first year QBs tend to struggle....and Allen had his share. Rookie 1st year QBs also tend to get better when they have incredible raw talent and a team willing to vest in their future. No running game.......lots of scrambling out of trouble...... a FIVE MINUTE VIDEO of WR's dropping balls they should be catching.......do I really need to go on here? The answer is no....I am not going to auto expect failure.....not when the team is obviously looking to invest in the talent around him. The question wasn't whether you "auto expect failure. As I said, you seem to hound me insisting that Allen's a shoe-in for franchise status. I've never, ever, anywhere said that Allen's a definitive bust. All I've said, most of which seems to be ignored by posters such as yourself, and I said it again above, is that the odds are not in his favor as no QB prospect in modern NFL history has gone from the depths of where he is and has been, any and all excuses aside, to franchise status. If you disagree, same challenge to you as to anyone, find the exception. All we hear is about his deep-arm and how we need more "deep WRs" for him, which merely feeds the problem. The problem isn't his ability to heave the ball deep. But this notion that teams' records are even remotely hinged upon the deep ball is ridiculous. How often does it have to be stated, franchise QBs ALL have one thing in common, a superb short-medium game, which includes the Red Zone where A, no deep game exists, and B, where Allen was horrid last season, as in bottom-dwelling horrid. It's nice that you seem to think that the odds of him overcoming that are better than the odds of it not happening, and again, perhaps he will, I don't have a crystal ball, apparently you seem to however, but the reality is that it's a longshot at best. Sure, as with you, I hope to high heavens that he does. It'd be a dam refreshing change of pace for us, I'm simply not nearly as confident as everyone else is. It gets old having to listen to people insist that for whatever reason, players when they get here are all of a sudden outperform their career averages, like John Brown, or how we can expect them to repeat or improve upon their career bests simply because we sign them. Gore, at 36 is a good example. Everyone ignores the fact that he's been among the worst YPC RBs in teh league on average over the past four years while deferring to his singular stats from last season on a team where two other RBs posted even better YPC averages on a team with no pass-pro OL and nothing but a good running OL. Again, as one mere example among many. Also, people post carefully selected stats to start a thread and make a point and simply don't wnat to hear any other readily available data that's far more relevant to the very topic that they started. That's not much of a discussion forum, what they're looking for is to make a post and six pages of back-slapping in agreement. Why, beats me. I much prefer to deal with reality, not pie-in-the-sky nonsense. Excuses and exceptions can always be floated. Narratives do not overcome reality. And I'll give you a really good example. Last season we had the #2 ranked D, right? According to what? Yardage D. People ignore our 18th ranked scoring D or our 30th ranked Red Zone D, much less even begin to reconcile why the gap as such, similar to the season prior. Was there any mitigating circumstance? Well, if people look into it they'll see that our oppoinents had the best starting field position on average of any team in the league. That certainly explains some of it. Yet I don't think anyone here would even consider that. Nope. All they know is that we had the #2 D and they'll be shocked when we don't this season. It is what it is. It ain't what it ain't. Edited March 28, 2019 by TaskersGhost
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