SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted March 15, 2019 Posted March 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, 947 said: Zay is light years better than McKenzie, who is a gadget guy we really only added due to our lack of offensive talent. That's no longer the issue, and Beasley is taking his job. Very slim chance McKenzie stays on. Very well a possibility with McKitrick ( Fergy joke). I'm not sure half of theses guys will remain on the team either. Cam Phillips, Ray-Ray McCloud III, Andre Roberts, Duke Williams, Da'Mari Scott, Victor Bolden Jr. Wasn't Ray Ray and Cam cut and brought back a number of times?
Peace Frog Posted March 15, 2019 Posted March 15, 2019 I think the Bills trade Zay Jones so they can give #11 to Cole Beasley. Boom! 1
TheBeane Posted March 15, 2019 Posted March 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: I think the Bills trade Zay Jones so they can give #11 to Cole Beasley. Boom! I like the idea, but they would have to find something willing to trade for him.... Not sure how many takers there would be. Maybe the ***Pats? hahaha 1
Big Gun Posted March 15, 2019 Posted March 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, TheBeane said: I like the idea, but they would have to find something willing to trade for him.... Not sure how many takers there would be. Maybe the ***Pats? hahaha Jones, trade bait on draft night?
Alphadawg7 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said: The only ones that need more work on their player evaluation skills than the national media are some of the posters on here. Im not saying he is or isnt going to be here. However, if he shows improvement from last season to the end of camp then he isnt going anywhere. You have no idea how much he has improved over the offseason as a young still developing WR. Its really a foolish statement for someone to make. Really? How does that even make sense? Look at all the contradictions you said in this one post. "Im not saying he is or isnt going to be here." Means you are acknowledging his roster spot is no lock, otherwise you would have stated he would definitely be here. "However, if he shows improvement from last season to the end of camp he isn't going anywhere." Which literally means he has to get better, so by that very statement alone it suggests his roster spot is not a lock unless he improves. "You have no idea how much he had improved over the offseason as young still developing WR" Which also means, neither do you. And thats really the point, and why I MANY times stated this is just my gut feeling based on the level of competition I believe he will face and whether or not he can beat out that competition. "Its really a foolish statement for someone to make" Now this was the real contradictory statement. How is me questioning his ability to beat out better competition any more foolish than you believing he will improve and beat them out? You are basically stating all over your one post he has a challenge ahead of him but then call me foolish for questioning his ability to rise to said challenge. They are just opinions, and based on what Zay has shown on the field its far from foolish to be critical of that and see new competition as a threat unless he makes a leap forward. Edited March 16, 2019 by Alphadawg7 1
Patrick Duffy Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Really? How does that even make sense? Look at all the contradictions you said in this one post. "Im not saying he is or isnt going to be here." Means you are acknowledging his roster spot is no lock, otherwise you would have stated he would definitely be here. "However, if he shows improvement from last season to the end of camp he isn't going anywhere." Which literally means he has to get better, so by that very statement alone it suggests his roster spot is not a lock unless he improves. "You have no idea how much he had improved over the offseason as young still developing WR" Which also means, neither do you. And thats really the point, and why I MANY times stated this is just my gut feeling based on the level of competition I believe he will face and whether or not he can beat out that competition. "Its really a foolish statement for someone to make" Now this was the real contradictory statement. How is me questioning his ability to beat out better competition any more foolish than you believing he will improve and beat them out? You are basically stating all over your one post he has a challenge ahead of him but then call me foolish for questioning his ability to rise to said challenge. They are just opinions, and based on what Zay has shown on the field its far from foolish to be critical of that and see new competition as a threat unless he makes a leap forward. Well, looks like you just tore his post apart lol
NewEra Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 Duke, Zay and McKenzie will be battling for a spot, maybe 2 spots. 1
Logic Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 I think people underrate Zay Jones. He was Buffalo's leading receiver last year. Despite catching passes from Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley, Nathan Peterman, and rookie Josh Allen in 2018, he put up 652 yards and 7 TDs in his second year. As the season was coming to an end, he really began to come on. His last two games featured 5 catches for 67 yards and a TD against the Pats and 6 catches for 93 yards and 2 TDs against the Dolphins. I'm not saying he's a world beater, but he's young, talented, cheap labor. And if you tell me "he'll never get better", I say B.S.! Eric Moulds had less than 300 yards in seasons 1 and 2 of his career. How did Robert Woods do in Buffalo, yardage wise ? I'm sick of sticking talented WRs in bad passing offenses, watching them struggle to produce, and then letting them walk away to another team who knows how to use them. Let me see Zay Jones get one full season with Josh Allen and the improved o-line, and then we can make a determination on shipping him off. 1
HurlyBurly51 Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 36 minutes ago, Logic said: I think people underrate Zay Jones. He was Buffalo's leading receiver last year. Despite catching passes from Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley, Nathan Peterman, and rookie Josh Allen in 2018, he put up 652 yards and 7 TDs in his second year. As the season was coming to an end, he really began to come on. His last two games featured 5 catches for 67 yards and a TD against the Pats and 6 catches for 93 yards and 2 TDs against the Dolphins. I'm not saying he's a world beater, but he's young, talented, cheap labor. And if you tell me "he'll never get better", I say B.S.! Eric Moulds had less than 300 yards in seasons 1 and 2 of his career. How did Robert Woods do in Buffalo, yardage wise ? I'm sick of sticking talented WRs in bad passing offenses, watching them struggle to produce, and then letting them walk away to another team who knows how to use them. Let me see Zay Jones get one full season with Josh Allen and the improved o-line, and then we can make a determination on shipping him off. Nice post - fits with your user name!
Alphadawg7 Posted March 16, 2019 Author Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Logic said: I think people underrate Zay Jones. He was Buffalo's leading receiver last year. Despite catching passes from Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley, Nathan Peterman, and rookie Josh Allen in 2018, he put up 652 yards and 7 TDs in his second year. As the season was coming to an end, he really began to come on. His last two games featured 5 catches for 67 yards and a TD against the Pats and 6 catches for 93 yards and 2 TDs against the Dolphins. I'm not saying he's a world beater, but he's young, talented, cheap labor. And if you tell me "he'll never get better", I say B.S.! Eric Moulds had less than 300 yards in seasons 1 and 2 of his career. How did Robert Woods do in Buffalo, yardage wise ? I'm sick of sticking talented WRs in bad passing offenses, watching them struggle to produce, and then letting them walk away to another team who knows how to use them. Let me see Zay Jones get one full season with Josh Allen and the improved o-line, and then we can make a determination on shipping him off. No disrespect Logic, I think you're a great poster around here. But I greatly disagree on what you are citing as "began to really come on" in those last 2 games. In fact, not just you, overall I really do not understand this myth around here where people keep stating Zay "got good down the stretch" and stuff. Its totally not accurate, and in fact 3 of his last 4 games were terrible, and 2 of them were among the worst of his career (Det and NE) In NE Zay was dominated in that Pats game and made no impact at all. He was man handled the entire game and struggled to get open. With 1:17 left in the game, Zay was sitting on a stat line of 4 Catches for 36 yards, 0 TDs. Then with the game over and Pats up 3 scores, he got a garbage 31 yard TD on broken coverage where no DB covered him at all. Poof, all of a sudden people look at the stat line and think it was a "good game" when it was probably his 2nd worst game of the season (Detroit the week before that was the worst one of his career). Our last 4 games of the season: Week 14 - Jets - 3 catches on 9 targets for 22 yards. Terrible Week 15 - Lions - 1 catch on 6 targets for 11 yards. Probably worst game of his career. Slay dominated him as much as a DB can ever dominate a WR. Week 16 - Pats - 5 catches on 9 targets for 67 yards, 1 TD. MISLEADING. 4 catches or 36 yards on 8 targets with 1:17 left in the game down 24-6. Gets garbage 31 yard TD when no one covers him on broken coverage. One of his worst games of the year. Week 17 - Dolphins - 6 catches on 9 attempts for 93 years and 2 TD's. Only good game down the stretch, but it was also a week 17 game against an awful Miami team who mailed it in and didn't bother to show up to play. I don't see a guy who came on over the last stretch, I see a terrible stretch of games that was saved by one gimme game in week 17 against a bad team who had quit on its head coach already. Its all good, and a lot of this wasn't just replying to your post, its to address this common statement around here that Zay came on strong later in the season, which he really didn't. This is why stats are unreliable in the NFL, they don't tell the whole story. Edited March 16, 2019 by Alphadawg7 3
folz Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 How is this thread still going? Should have died days ago. (Yes, I know I'm now helping to keep it alive.) I mean the posters who think McKenzie is a lock and Zay doesn't make the team just baffle me. I like Isiah, but in his albeit short 3-year career, he has a total of 22 receptions for 208 yards and 0 TDs. He has rushed for 70 yards on 11 carries with 2 TDs, but he has also had 8 fumbles in his limited playing time (6 were with Denver, which I'm assuming must have been mostly on kick or punt returns). I'd love to see McKenzie (or any of our WRs) bust out, but there isn't too much evidence that he will. Why do so many have him ahead of Zay on the depth chart? Zay had 7 TDs last year. What are you guys seeing in McKenzie that warrants such confidence? Roberts takes away any value McKenzie had as a returner. Foster and Brown take away the need for his speed. Beasley will be the man over the middle. So, do we keep McKenzie just to run the occasional Jet sweeps or reverses? And posters talk about Zay's drops (which were significantly fewer in his 2nd season), but McKenzie had his drops too. Here is part of an All-22 review of Bills receivers by Joe B. Part of his write-up on McKenzie: "As he became more acclimated with the offense, the Bills tried him out in a bit of a bigger role, seeing how he operated both as a slot receiver and even out on the boundary. McKenzie still provided the same unpredictable element for the offense, though as he started to get more touches, ball security issues began to arise -- a problem that plagued him in his time in Denver. For McKenzie to make the roster in 2019, especially with the likelihood that the Bills bring in multiple wide receivers in the offseason, he'll need to show well on special teams and that the drops and fumbles aren't going to be an issue." https://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/2018-buffalo-bills-all-22-in-review-wide-receiver Now, I'm not trying to dog McKenzie, I want every player who is a Bill to succeed. But I just can't figure out why any fan would be higher on McKenzie than Zay. 1
HappyDays Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, folz said: But I just can't figure out why any fan would be higher on McKenzie than Zay. McKenzie offers speed. When the ball is in his hands defenses have to pay attention. What does Zay bring to our offense? I don't understand any optimism for him. He has below average separation, catch ability, and speed. He is an average route runner. What does he do that's impressive? 2
formerlyofCtown Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: Really? How does that even make sense? Look at all the contradictions you said in this one post. "Im not saying he is or isnt going to be here." Means you are acknowledging his roster spot is no lock, otherwise you would have stated he would definitely be here. "However, if he shows improvement from last season to the end of camp he isn't going anywhere." Which literally means he has to get better, so by that very statement alone it suggests his roster spot is not a lock unless he improves. "You have no idea how much he had improved over the offseason as young still developing WR" Which also means, neither do you. And thats really the point, and why I MANY times stated this is just my gut feeling based on the level of competition I believe he will face and whether or not he can beat out that competition. "Its really a foolish statement for someone to make" Now this was the real contradictory statement. How is me questioning his ability to beat out better competition any more foolish than you believing he will improve and beat them out? You are basically stating all over your one post he has a challenge ahead of him but then call me foolish for questioning his ability to rise to said challenge. They are just opinions, and based on what Zay has shown on the field its far from foolish to be critical of that and see new competition as a threat unless he makes a leap forward. Why dont you put your money where your mouth is Alpha?
folz Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, HappyDays said: McKenzie offers speed. When the ball is in his hands defenses have to pay attention. What does Zay bring to our offense? I don't understand any optimism for him. He has below average separation, catch ability, and speed. He is an average route runner. What does he do that's impressive? Honestly, I can understand people being down on Zay, as he has not lived up to his draft status yet. I just personally think he deserves one more year to prove it. He did improve from year 1 to year 2. And he wasn't meant to come in and be a #1 receiver in the league, but circumstances forced him into that role, which also meant that he was going against the best corners and maybe getting double teams before he was ready for that level. (And don't get me started again about the poor coaching he received.) Yes, a player like JuJu is way ahead of Zay right now, but how much easier was life for JuJu with HOFer AB on the opposite side of the field drawing all of the attention (not to mention having a HOF QB throwing to him instead of the likes of Tyrod, Peterman, Anderson, Barkley, and rookie Allen). I just think he deserves a year where the QB play and O-line play is better. And where there are other viable receivers, so he doesn't get all of the attention. How can you totally judge a 1st or 2nd year guy under the circumstances that Zay was in. I think you give him one more year in an actually viable offense before you ship him away. I also remember after his rookie year, I made a post reviewing all of his "drops." And so many of them were just horrible throws by Tyrod. He definitely had some drops, but it wasn't as bad as it first appeared. But, what I was really responding to was the idea that McKenzie is "obviously" ahead of Zay on the depth chart. I guarantee you that the Bills coaches and FO do not see it that way. As far as speed and skills, here are Zay and McKenzie's combine numbers: McKenzie Jones 40-yard dash: 4.42 4.45 Vertical: 36" 36.5" Broad jump: 123" 133" 3-cone: 6.14 6.79 shuttle: 4.15 4.01 It's not like McKenzie is some amazing athlete and Zay is some slow, lumbering oaf. Plus, there is the production thus far: Zay: 83 rec. 968 yards 9 TDs 1 fumble (in 2 years) McK: 22 rec 208 yards 0 TDs 8 fumbles (in 3 years) (although he does have the 70 yards rushing with 2 TDs) But, how does 22 receptions and 11 carries total in 3 years in the NFL make him a lock for any team? Especially when so few touches (his touches also includes 52 returns) include 8 fumbles? That's 1 fumble every 9.4 touches. Plus he too had some big drops last year. You can be as fast as you want, but if you can't hang onto the ball, you'll be on the bench or out of the league. There is just no way that McKenzie is ahead of Zay on the depth chart. 3
Mat68 Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 As it sits. Zay is the possession reciever outside. Has pretty good size and pretty solid route runner. He won't scare anyone but solid all around reciever. Can play outside and inside.
Thurmal34 Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 Zay will not only be on the roster, but be productive. 1
HappyDays Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, folz said: Honestly, I can understand people being down on Zay, as he has not lived up to his draft status yet. I just personally think he deserves one more year to prove it. He did improve from year 1 to year 2. And he wasn't meant to come in and be a #1 receiver in the league, but circumstances forced him into that role, which also meant that he was going against the best corners and maybe getting double teams before he was ready for that level. (And don't get me started again about the poor coaching he received.) Yes, a player like JuJu is way ahead of Zay right now, but how much easier was life for JuJu with HOFer AB on the opposite side of the field drawing all of the attention (not to mention having a HOF QB throwing to him instead of the likes of Tyrod, Peterman, Anderson, Barkley, and rookie Allen). I just think he deserves a year where the QB play and O-line play is better. He'll get the year to prove it but I can't imagine he beats out Brown or Foster for an outside starting role, and he's definitely not beating Beasley for the slot position. The fact that we gave two big contracts to receivers tells me this regime isn't going to wait for Zay to develop. Right now he's just depth in case of injury. He did improve in year 2, but only insofar as he went from historically bad to somewhat competent. JuJu makes plays happen: Yeah it helps having elite offensive talent around him. But look at these plays. I haven't seen Zay do anything like this. Edited March 16, 2019 by HappyDays 1 1
Real McClappy Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, HappyDays said: He'll get the year to prove it but I can't imagine he beats out Brown or Foster for an outside starting role, and he's definitely not beating Beasley for the slot position. The fact that we gave two big contracts to receivers tells me this regime isn't going to wait for Zay to develop. Right now he's just depth in case of injury. He did improve in year 2, but only insofar as he went from historically bad to somewhat competent. JuJu makes plays happen: Yeah it helps having elite offensive talent around him. But look at these plays. I haven't seen Zay do anything like this. highlight reels are fun, Zay's isn't bad either
Jay_Fixit Posted March 16, 2019 Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, HappyDays said: McKenzie offers speed. When the ball is in his hands defenses have to pay attention. What does Zay bring to our offense? I don't understand any optimism for him. He has below average separation, catch ability, and speed. He is an average route runner. What does he do that's impressive? Dude, I get you don’t like him but he definitely isn’t below average in any of those areas. In fact, he has good speed. He’s underrated with the ball in his hands and he’s better at separating than many are giving him credit for. He’s had pretty awful QB play for most of his career with virtually nobody else (receiver wise) to take the heat off of him. He has that now. And hopefully Allen can make a giant leap in his second season to help Zay and the fellas out. Just have a slice of Sara Lee and relax with me. Edited March 16, 2019 by Jay_Fixit 1
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