Calling it now: Zay Jones will not be on the week 1 roster.

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Blah blah garbage time 

Blah blah against one team

 

a catch is a catch and a TD is a TD

 

Hes not proven to be a Super star.  

He was far better than the test with the exception of Foster 

 

 

 

Could you possibly make a less meaningful point?  I mean who cares if he was “better” than the garbage we already cut, since when does that mean someone is good?  

 

I guess our whole offensive line is good enough too since they were better than the scrubs we cut in preseason lol

 

I mean that statement couldn’t have less value in terms of evaluating someone.

 

PS:  I am pretty sure if anyone searches your post history you have very vocally used “garbage time” to discredit other players yourself...so I guess it’s a valid critique when it fits your narrative and not a valid one when it doesn’t.  Got it.

[Success]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

We have 3 WR's actually on the roster, and of them Foster is our best WR right now as he easily passed up Zay already.  The other WR is Duke.  

 

By default, you can say Zay is our 2nd best WR on the roster right now, but is he really?  We don't actually know that because we haven't seen what Duke can do on an NFL field yet.  People keep over looking Duke because he was in the CFL, but that was not because of talent.  He was there over maturity issues which he seems all past now.  He has dominated at every level of football he has played, so its more than reasonable to expect him to challenge Zay.

 

So not only is Zay not our best WR on the roster right now, he could actually be the worst one if Duke comes on strong.  And thats before we add more talent and we will add at least 2 or 3 more relevant WR's via draft, FA, or trade.  

We’ll have to disagree.  I love what Foster brings and I’m glad he’s a Bill, but Jones is much more versatile.

 

Jones has some real skills. I think he’s fairly underrated in this board - he was really developing chemistry with Allen, and I see that tandem being important to our success in the years ahead.

[Buffalo03]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Let’s not forget 4 of those 7 came against the woeful Dolphins and that makes up 45% of his career TDS over 2 seasons in just those 2 games.  

 

In 30 career games Zay has zero 100 yard games.  In 7 career games Foster has three 100 yard games.  In 30 career games he has had less than 40 yards 22 times.  

 

A couple 2 TD games against a terrible Dolphins team doesn’t erase the other 28 games of mostly sub par play.  

How many Bills receivers have really had many 100 yard games in the last 5 or 10 years? I'm not saying he's gonna be a super star and I'm not saying that he has been all that great in the time that he's been here but he has shown a few glimpses here and there that he could be a legit receiver. They may be few and far between but I think his main thing is to learn how to be more consistent with catching the ball. I still think he can be a decent receiver in this league

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Buffalo03 said:

How many Bills receivers have really had many 100 yard games in the last 5 or 10 years? I'm not saying he's gonna be a super star and I'm not saying that he has been all that great in the time that he's been here but he has shown a few glimpses here and there that he could be a legit receiver. They may be few and far between but I think his main thing is to learn how to be more consistent with catching the ball. I still think he can be a decent receiver in this league

 

Foster had 3 in his first 7 games on the same roster.   

 

Not saying he can’t be a decent receiver, but decent receivers are not good starters.  And therefore, he can be upgraded upon and that’s what I predicted.  

1 hour ago, Success said:

We’ll have to disagree.  I love what Foster brings and I’m glad he’s a Bill, but Jones is much more versatile.

 

Jones has some real skills. I think he’s fairly underrated in this board - he was really developing chemistry with Allen, and I see that tandem being important to our success in the years ahead.

 

All good  Nothing wrong with seeing it different

Edited March 4, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Could you possibly make a less meaningful point?  I mean who cares if he was “better” than the garbage we already cut, since when does that mean someone is good?  

 

I guess our whole offensive line is good enough too since they were better than the scrubs we cut in preseason lol

 

I mean that statement couldn’t have less value in terms of evaluating someone.

 

PS:  I am pretty sure if anyone searches your post history you have very vocally used “garbage time” to discredit other players yourself...so I guess it’s a valid critique when it fits your narrative and not a valid one when it doesn’t.  Got it.

 

You know... You are right.  I was tying to make a (long dead) point 

 

the same should have applied to Tyrod Taylor .  

 

Taylor was the best we had ..... and he sucked.  

 

[oldmanfan]

Jones starts the season opener and catches a TD pass.

[Alphadawg7]

38 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Jones starts the season opener and catches a TD pass.

 

If we only add 1 more significant WR, sure I see that as a possibility.  Just feel they will add at least 2 though, and thats where I struggle seeing Zay beating out Foster, Duke, McKenzie and 2 other WR's who were either signed or drafted to compete to start.  

 

In case you didnt read any of my other replies, my main point on why I think Zay will get traded during camp is because I have a feeling he wont beat out the guys ahead of him (the 3 we have now plus 2 more expected adds between now and draft) and will fall to 4th on depth chart.  At that point, I feel like Beane will look to get value for him before his value falls further if he isnt seeing significant playing time over the course of the season.  

 

For example...lets say we sign Humphries in FA.  Then draft Metcalf at 9 or wait til the second and draft someone like Butler.  Can you really see Zay beating out Foster (who has already passed up Zay), Duke (who is talented enough to compete to start or play significant minutes), McKenzie (who could challenge for a slot role) and then both Humphries (easy starter at Slot) and our high draft rookie (Metcalf/Butler/Other will likely be a WR1 or WR2 week 1)?

 

Thats why I think he falls...BUT, of course if we only say draft one rookie and then just maybe add another role player or late round pick to the WR room, sure, Zay likely is on this roster week 1 whether he is starting or not.  But, I still feel we will add at least 2 more significant WR's this offseason and Zay is going to be in stiff competition.  And for a guy who has yet to establish any part of his game as something he excels at, makes me concerned he can beat the other guys out to stay higher on depth chart.  

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

If we only add 1 more significant WR, sure I see that as a possibility.  Just feel they will add at least 2 though, and thats where I struggle seeing Zay beating out Foster, Duke, McKenzie and 2 other WR's who were either signed or drafted to compete to start.  

 

In case you didnt read any of my other replies, my main point on why I think Zay will get traded during camp is because I have a feeling he wont beat out the guys ahead of him (the 3 we have now plus 2 more expected adds between now and draft) and will fall to 4th on depth chart.  At that point, I feel like Beane will look to get value for him before his value falls further if he isnt seeing significant playing time over the course of the season.  

 

For example...lets say we sign Humphries in FA.  Then draft Metcalf at 9 or wait til the second and draft someone like Butler.  Can you really see Zay beating out Foster (who has already passed up Zay), Duke (who is talented enough to compete to start or play significant minutes), McKenzie (who could challenge for a slot role) and then both Humphries (easy starter at Slot) and our high draft rookie (Metcalf/Butler/Other will likely be a WR1 or WR2 week 1)?

 

Thats why I think he falls...BUT, of course if we only say draft one rookie and then just maybe add another role player or late round pick to the WR room, sure, Zay likely is on this roster week 1 whether he is starting or not.  But, I still feel we will add at least 2 more significant WR's this offseason and Zay is going to be in stiff competition.  And for a guy who has yet to establish any part of his game as something he excels at, makes me concerned he can beat the other guys out to stay higher on depth chart.  

Yes I've read your replies, which all say the same thing basically, so why you keep repeating yourself is confusing.  But I digress.  Jones was starting to establish continuity with Allen the latter part of the season, WRs commonly take a season or two to blossom, and even if a guy like Duke works out it means Jones goes into the slot where he belongs.  You assume they draft a WR high;  I assume Beane is pretty smart and knows he has to beef up the O line plus he knows the real talent in round 1 is on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes I've read your replies, which all say the same thing basically, so why you keep repeating yourself is confusing.  But I digress.  Jones was starting to establish continuity with Allen the latter part of the season, WRs commonly take a season or two to blossom, and even if a guy like Duke works out it means Jones goes into the slot where he belongs.  You assume they draft a WR high;  I assume Beane is pretty smart and knows he has to beef up the O line plus he knows the real talent in round 1 is on the defensive side of the ball.

 

 

Did just as a courtesy given the thread is now 10 pages as most people wont go through a whole thread and will instead jump in where its currently at when its that long.  Hence why  I said "in case you didn't".  

 

PS:  I think we are going to beef up the OL in FA, its deeper than the other positions of need.  And we don't have to take a WR in round 1 for it to be a threat to Zay.  Butler or Campbell in the 2nd would be too...not to mention someone like Isabella in the 3rd would be too.  This is a deep WR group, talent can be had in first 3 rounds.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes I've read your replies, which all say the same thing basically, so why you keep repeating yourself is confusing.  But I digress.  Jones was starting to establish continuity with Allen the latter part of the season, WRs commonly take a season or two to blossom, and even if a guy like Duke works out it means Jones goes into the slot where he belongs.  You assume they draft a WR high;  I assume Beane is pretty smart and knows he has to beef up the O line plus he knows the real talent in round 1 is on the defensive side of the ball.

 

 

To me Zay is not a fit in the slot in the offense Daboll wants to run. He wants shifty, quick change of direction types in there. Zay was rafted for a different offense by different coaches. Dennison and Kubiak have utilised "big slot" types to good effect in their offenses. Daboll less so.

 

EDIT: Not saying Zay won't make the team..... I don't think he is a lock though..... and if he makes it I suspect it is outside not in the slot on this offense.

Edited March 4, 2019 by GunnerBill

[badassgixxer05]

56 catches, 652 yards, 7 tds, 33 firstdowns, no injuries, 2nd NFL season. I just don't get the hate on this kid. He doubled every statistic category possible showing a ton of grown from year 1 to 2. If he grows more in year 3 he is a solid #1 wr, if he maintains hes still a solid #2. End of story..

[Alphadawg7]

17 minutes ago, badassgixxer05 said:

56 catches, 652 yards, 7 tds, 33 firstdowns, no injuries, 2nd NFL season. I just don't get the hate on this kid. He doubled every statistic category possible showing a ton of grown from year 1 to 2. If he grows more in year 3 he is a solid #1 wr, if he maintains hes still a solid #2. End of story..

 

Not hate, its fair to look at the roster and see places we can and will improve.  And taking an honest look at him, several us don't see any part of his game that he does well...at least not yet.  Doesn't mean he cant improve more, but right now, he has yet to establish any single part of being a WR as something he excels at.  So not about hating him, I know I would love for him to succeed and will root for him to do so.  I don't care if my "gut feeling" is correct of wrong, I just want a much stronger WR room for Allen to work with. 

 

Your comment is one that has been said here many times now.  Production is being over exaggerated, this is why looking at stat totals is so misleading.  Those numbers are pretty bad for a 16 game starter in his 2nd year on a team that desperately needed more help from its WR's.  22 games out of 30 with less than 40 yards, including 10 of his 16 this year, is not a good season.  Having a couple good games against a woeful Mia team doesnt make a career either.  

 

So don't confuse fair criticism or speculative doubt as "hate", its not personal at all.  I and some others are just skeptical he can beat out better competition to play WR1, WR2 or the main slot WR.  Hey if he wins the job against better competition this year, thats great for all of us as that means he took a step forward and earned the spot.  

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, badassgixxer05 said:

56 catches, 652 yards, 7 tds, 33 firstdowns, no injuries, 2nd NFL season. I just don't get the hate on this kid. He doubled every statistic category possible showing a ton of grown from year 1 to 2. If he grows more in year 3 he is a solid #1 wr, if he maintains hes still a solid #2. End of story..

 

Can we add targets to catches ratio to these stats? 176 targets; 83 catches..... now I am no maths grad but it means he catches fewer than 50% of the balls thrown to him.

 

That is no bueno.

[badassgixxer05]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Not hate, its fair to look at the roster and see places we can and will improve.  And taking an honest look at him, several us don't see any part of his game that he does well...at least not yet.  Doesn't mean he cant improve more, but right now, he has yet to establish any single part of being a WR as something he excels at.  So not about hating him, I know I would love for him to succeed and will root for him to do so.  I don't care if my "gut feeling" is correct of wrong, I just want a much stronger WR room for Allen to work with. 

 

Your comment is one that has been said here many times now.  Production is being over exaggerated, this is why looking at stat totals is so misleading.  Those numbers are pretty bad for a 16 game starter in his 2nd year on a team that desperately needed more help from its WR's.  22 games out of 30 with less than 40 yards, including 10 of his 16 this year, is not a good season.  Having a couple good games against a woeful Mia team doesnt make a career either.  

 

So don't confuse fair criticism or speculative doubt as "hate", its not personal at all.  I and some others are just skeptical he can beat out better competition to play WR1, WR2 or the main slot WR.  Hey if he wins the job against better competition this year, thats great for all of us as that means he took a step forward and earned the spot.  

Fair point. Maybe I am too optimistic at times. WR is a position that can take time to excel at in the NFL. Some recent elite tier Wrs have made an exception to this rule recently and leaves many of us wanting more for sure. If he gets into year 3 and he is not performing then I'd start to worry, but I think the kid will be fine. I 100% am with everyone though in getting another stud if possible. Can never have enough weapons!

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Can we add targets to catches ratio to these stats? 176 targets; 83 catches..... now I am no maths grad but it means he catches fewer than 50% of the balls thrown to him.

 

That is no bueno.

I've always hated this stat. An off target or defended ball is considered a target. Wouldn't always fall on the WR...

[NewEraBills]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To me Zay is not a fit in the slot in the offense Daboll wants to run. He wants shifty, quick change of direction types in there. Zay was rafted for a different offense by different coaches. Dennison and Kubiak have utilised "big slot" types to good effect in their offenses. Daboll less so.

 

EDIT: Not saying Zay won't make the team..... I don't think he is a lock though..... and if he makes it I suspect it is outside not in the slot on this offense.

 

I'm starting to think this too, even though I have advocated that he needs to be in the slot.  He hasn't shown the quick shiftiness to get open and run those short quick routes from the slot.

[BuffaloHokie13]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Can we add targets to catches ratio to these stats? 176 targets; 83 catches..... now I am no maths grad but it means he catches fewer than 50% of the balls thrown to him.

 

That is no bueno.

This is the part where folks will blame Tyrod for an unusually high amount of uncatchable balls instead of Zay for running incorrect routes. Every other WR on the team had a significantly lower uncatchable rate than Zay, but that couldn't possibly be Zay's fault.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

I'm starting to think this too, even though I have advocated that he needs to be in the slot.  He hasn't shown the quick shiftiness to get open and run those short quick routes from the slot.

 

This is where I have been at too.  I think we can all (even the most optimistic on Zay) agree he is never likely going to be used as WR1 outside threat.  

 

However, he also hasn't yet shown he can be a very good WR2 yet, especially with how poorly he handles press coverage, so the default has been "he's better for the slot", and I too have said that.  

 

But, what you just said is a big part of why I think he could be in jeopardy, is that his skill set really isn't special for a slot WR.  He lacks the twitch explosiveness and great route running that can really make a slot WR dangerous.  

Edited March 4, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[badassgixxer05]

1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

This is the part where folks will blame Tyrod for an unusually high amount of uncatchable balls instead of Zay for running incorrect routes. Every other WR on the team had a significantly lower uncatchable rate than Zay, but that couldn't possibly be Zay's fault.

If he wasn't running the right routes, wouldn't we see some sort of reaction from the QB or coaches at some point? It was actually the opposite we heard that Zay was the one helping another Lazy dumb WR on the team get in position most of the time. Again does Zay need to get better to be a true #1, no doubt about it, but to think he is a bum and will be off the team after showing growth last year just seems silly to me. I'm just glad the kid stayed on the field and was able to grow with Allen. Them two building more on that will be great for both of their development going forward. Can't wait for camp!

[BuffaloHokie13]

8 minutes ago, badassgixxer05 said:

If he wasn't running the right routes, wouldn't we see some sort of reaction from the QB or coaches at some point?

You mean like that time he cost us the Panthers game and the entire team tried to console him? There was plenty of reaction going on. Some on the sideline, and some in the locker room.

[NewEraBills]

5 minutes ago, badassgixxer05 said:

If he wasn't running the right routes, wouldn't we see some sort of reaction from the QB or coaches at some point? It was actually the opposite we heard that Zay was the one helping another Lazy dumb WR on the team get in position most of the time. Again does Zay need to get better to be a true #1, no doubt about it, but to think he is a bum and will be off the team after showing growth last year just seems silly to me. I'm just glad the kid stayed on the field and was able to grow with Allen. Them two building more on that will be great for both of their development going forward. Can't wait for camp!

 

He's not a bum. It's just when you seriously begin to think about answering the question, what is his role going to be?  that's when the doubts surface.  He struggles on the perimeter vs press coverage and getting separation down the field.  He doesn't have the quick shiftiness to play the slot.  What is his role then, unless we will be asking our slot WR's to do different things like digs, crosses, posts?