dpberr Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) I wouldn't trade for him. Taylor not finding a role for him on the team is a blinking red light to me. He is an oft-injured, undersized wide receiver with poor route running skills and documented issues beating man/man coverage because he's undersized. In such a quick precision passing league, your WRs need to do more than run really fast. Edited February 27, 2019 by dpberr
racketmaster Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, freddyjj said: Just some perspective. Pats got Randy Moss from the Raiders for a 4th in 2007. Granted he was 30 at the time but he was a multi time all pro Bengals will likely get a 6th for Ross who has done nothing to date. The less of an asset we could use to acquire Ross the better. So if it were a 6th or 7th then it would be a steal in my mind for that type of pick which is likely to be a nothing player. But remember that Moss was 30 as you said and had flamed out in Oakland. He had been a distraction and was considered a malcontent and was no longer productive on the field. Plus his salary was higher so Moss had worn out his welcome and Oakland was just looking to get rid of him. There is no reason to expect Moss like production from Ross but I have not seen anything to indicate he has been a malcontent or distraction with the Bengals. Had Moss not been a distraction in Oakland he could have probably garnered a 3rd or 4th. Ross is young and still has upside where as most thought Moss had very little left in the tank at 30.
racketmaster Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, dpberr said: I wouldn't trade for him. Taylor not finding a role for him on the team is a blinking red light to me. He is an oft-injured, undersized wide receiver with poor route running skills and documented issues beating man/man coverage because he's undersized. In such a quick precision passing league, your WRs need to do more than run really fast. I think it depends on your system and quarterback. First, the Bengals have had Green and Boyd emerged this past year. Second, Ross has been hampered by injuries which is a real concern and the reason he is even on the block. But I completely disagree with the precision passing argument. Allen is the polar opposite of a Dalton type as he holds the ball longer than most quarterbacks. Allen not only has the ability to extend plays but he has a rocket arm. In this respect, Ross seems to be the perfect fit because it would allow him the time to get into his deeper routes. Even the threat of Ross getting over the top would allow more underneath routes to get open. So while Ross may not be a good fit for the Bengals he would be a good fit for teams like the Chiefs (they really don't need him because they have Hill), Steelers (they just drafted Washington), Panthers (they have DJ Moore), the Packers and the Bills to name a few. All have quarterbacks that can extend plays and get the ball deep. They are not precision passing, dink and dunk quarterbacks and could take better advantage of Ross' speed (if healthy). Edited February 27, 2019 by racketmaster
YoloinOhio Posted February 27, 2019 Author Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) Translation - it’s true but we are trying to make it look like we want to keep him/ haven’t gotten any decent offers. Bring them on. Edited February 27, 2019 by YoloinOhio
Bills of Boston Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 Couldn’t agree more Yolo... yeah, journalists etc have nothing better to do than make up John Ross rumors. I can picture them w their buddies..”I really turned the NFL upside down today w that john Ross fake rumor!!!” ?
YoloinOhio Posted February 27, 2019 Author Posted February 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bills of Boston said: Couldn’t agree more Yolo... yeah, journalists etc have nothing better to do than make up John Ross rumors. I can picture them w their buddies..”I really turned the NFL upside down today w that john Ross fake rumor!!!” ? Most of the stuff that gets reported at combine week is out there because there are so many agents in Indy who blab.
GG Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 39 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Translation - it’s true but we are trying to make it look like we want to keep him/ haven’t gotten any decent offers. Bring them on. Sounds like Tobin went to the Hank Bullough School of Analogies. I think he meant - Shoot, Ready, Aim.
MAJBobby Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Saint Doug said: I think this trading away our 4th for basically a bust is a bad idea. A 4th is a very valuable asset. For example, we picked up Taron Johnson in the 4th and even Milano in the 5th (we had no 4th 2 years ago). Would you trade either of them (or even a player as promising as them) for a player who has never played up to his potential? I’ll roll my dice in the draft. Why to cherry pick a couple names. Shall I list all the other 4ths that the Bills have had? to show it is just as much of a dice roll in the 4th as it is with a Former 1st with massive speed?
RyanC883 Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 I'd do a 6th for him. Not much higher. We have gotten great picks/useful picks in rounds 5 and up in the past few drafts.
Putin Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 3 hours ago, racketmaster said: I believe Williams and Ross are top tier talents and Foster really showed flashes of being a number 1 or 2 wr last year. So do I believe the Bills would be done making moves at the wr position beyond next year, heck no. But you would be adding Williams and Ross into the mix plus you may still use a later draft pick or veteran free agent that comes at a reasonable price. Bills could again attack the wr position in 2020 if needed. In the meantime, we could focus our assets ($ and picks) on the line and tight end spot. A legit tight end like Hockenson could be huge and just as much of an impact as a wr. We have a lot of holes and still need help on defense and we only have so much $ and picks. And let's not forget that the RB position needs a major upgrade in talent and that can be a tremendous help to a young quarterback. Plus, rookie RBs are more likely to become impact players as opposed to wrs, especially if we werr to use a mid round pick. Put another way, if Bills used a 4th or 5th on a wr would anybody be thinking that we just upgraded that spot? I think getting Ross instead has a better chance of helping us improve the wr spot next year. Its a risk but I think it is still worth taking. Again !!! Ross has not shown ANYTHING since day one that he’s even worth a roaster spot , I know we have many holes to fill , and even defense needs to be addressed , last year we had a top 5 / playoff caliber defense , there were few games where they gave up couple of big late drives that cost us the game , but overall our D was pretty darn good , About the running game I still believe that Shady got some fuel in the tank left and ( IMO ) Using a 5th round pick on a running back is not what going to help running game going , putting a solid OL and couple of weapons on offense is what will , I don’t care who you got running the ball if you get hit before the line of scrimmage , We have the money we have the picks we all know what needs to be addressed first
Saint Doug Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: Why to cherry pick a couple names. Shall I list all the other 4ths that the Bills have had? to show it is just as much of a dice roll in the 4th as it is with a Former 1st with massive speed? As I discussed above, I didn’t cherry pick. I selected the last 2 4th/5ths selected by the current regime. The Bills did not have a 4th in 2017, so I picked the 5th rounder. While the same size is very small, why should I list draft picks that weren’t selected by the current Bills FO?
MAJBobby Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Saint Doug said: As I discussed above, I didn’t cherry pick. I selected the last 2 4th/5ths selected by the current regime. The Bills did not have a 4th in 2017, so I picked the 5th rounder. While the same size is very small, why should I list draft picks that weren’t selected by the current Bills FO? Well here are the historical numbers: 4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%) So looking at it, yeah signing a 24 year old with speed and had 7 TDs last season vs at best a 37% hit rate well yep rolling the dice either way. I will take the speed and 7 TDs over a 12% chance at getting a starting WR 1
Doc Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 33 minutes ago, Putin said: Again !!! Ross has not shown ANYTHING since day one that he’s even worth a roaster spot , I know we have many holes to fill , and even defense needs to be addressed , last year we had a top 5 / playoff caliber defense , there were few games where they gave up couple of big late drives that cost us the game , but overall our D was pretty darn good , About the running game I still believe that Shady got some fuel in the tank left and ( IMO ) Using a 5th round pick on a running back is not what going to help running game going , putting a solid OL and couple of weapons on offense is what will , I don’t care who you got running the ball if you get hit before the line of scrimmage , We have the money we have the picks we all know what needs to be addressed first How about 7 TDs? 1 1
racketmaster Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Putin said: Again !!! Ross has not shown ANYTHING since day one that he’s even worth a roaster spot , I know we have many holes to fill , and even defense needs to be addressed , last year we had a top 5 / playoff caliber defense , there were few games where they gave up couple of big late drives that cost us the game , but overall our D was pretty darn good , About the running game I still believe that Shady got some fuel in the tank left and ( IMO ) Using a 5th round pick on a running back is not what going to help running game going , putting a solid OL and couple of weapons on offense is what will , I don’t care who you got running the ball if you get hit before the line of scrimmage , We have the money we have the picks we all know what needs to be addressed first I understand that Ross has yet to make a big impact but he did score 7 tds last year. His talent is really not the issue, it has much more to do with his injury history. I realize trading for Ross does not guarantee much of anything but feel it is a good match and worth the risk. I think we disagree on how much of our assets we should dedicate to the wr position. I think the combination of Foster, Williams (another talented player), Ross, McKenzie, Jones and maybe a value free agent wr can get the job done. There is potential there in the group but I realize it is just potential at this point. If it does not pan out then you make it more of a priority the following season. In in the meantime, you are bolstering your offensive line and tight end position. Both should help Allen every bit as much as an overpaid free agent wr or top draft pick would. Plus we disagree on Shady as I think he is just about done. We need serious help at RB and a mid round pick could help because they do help other teams year after year. With this plan, the Bills would theoretically improve their offensive line, tight end and rb positions. They would take a few gambles on the wr spot with Ross and Williams hoping one of them steps up as well as count on Foster continuing to be the number 1 threat. Wr may not be the strength but other positions would be much improved. Edited February 27, 2019 by racketmaster
John from Riverside Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 3 hours ago, MAJBobby said: Well here are the historical numbers: 4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%) So looking at it, yeah signing a 24 year old with speed and had 7 TDs last season vs at best a 37% hit rate well yep rolling the dice either way. I will take the speed and 7 TDs over a 12% chance at getting a starting WR Agreed And we need a veteran in the locker room to go with the youth we are probably going to take earlier in the draft. Foster and this kid on the outsides getting behind defenses Get a quality TE to work the middle of the field
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 20 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: The Bengals lost Marvin Jones and Mohammed Sanu in the same free agent class, and their offense suffered for it. It was a definite need for them. They still had Boyd and Eifert. Using a top 10 pick on an non #1 receiver seems like a bad invest for a team that was a playoff contender. and people are right about not bidding too high of a pick. Maybe a player (hi Cincy, Ducasse is a great player and an even better guy)? But I don’t know why you get rid of Ross for a low round pick unless he is super dumb or had major injury concerns.
Saint Doug Posted February 27, 2019 Posted February 27, 2019 5 hours ago, MAJBobby said: Well here are the historical numbers: 4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%) So looking at it, yeah signing a 24 year old with speed and had 7 TDs last season vs at best a 37% hit rate well yep rolling the dice either way. I will take the speed and 7 TDs over a 12% chance at getting a starting WR Historical numbers for who? Beane?
MAJBobby Posted March 2, 2019 Posted March 2, 2019 On 2/27/2019 at 6:41 PM, Saint Doug said: Historical numbers for who? Beane? The League. So yeah I take them over a SUPER SMALL sample size
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