When Does Taxation Become Oppression?

[The_Dude]

Serious question — at what point is taxation oppression?

 

Today I watched a clip of a young lady on Fox who is pro Bernie. The interviewer asked how they would pay for the programs Bernie wants to roll out. The young lady responded by saying to tax the rich. “How much” the interviewer asked, to which the young lady responded 70%!

 

Never in the course of human history has a people taxed themselves into prosperity. It doesn’t work that way. 

 

My question is, at what point do taxes become oppression? Where’s your line in the sand? How much of a persons money should be available

for confiscation and redistribution by the electorate?

[BringBackOrton]

Taxation is ALWAYS oppression, but it is a necessary evil as long as it is fair, equitable, and used with frugality.

 

In the current USA, none of those three are guaranteed.  In fact, they are the opposite.  Any increase in taxation is, unequivocally, an unacceptable oppression today.

[Buffalo_Gal]

Stats - and while there are lies, damn lies, and statistics - these stats are showing a trend that the top 1% is paying a greater percentage of all federal taxes today than in the past. I was listening to the radio in my vehicle yesterday, and someone was opining that the top brass in the IRS admitted that needed to be changed - the federal government cannot rely on such a small sliver of people to pay such a disproportionate amount of collected taxes. 

WSJ

Market Watch: 
More than 44% of Americans pay no federal income tax

Bloomberg:
Top 3% of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Majority of Income Tax in 2016

[Koko78]

“An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy”

[TPS]

37 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Stats - and while there are lies, damn lies, and statistics - these stats are showing a trend that the top 1% is paying a greater percentage of all federal taxes today than in the past. I was listening to the radio in my vehicle yesterday, and someone was opining that the top brass in the IRS admitted that needed to be changed - the federal government cannot rely on such a small sliver of people to pay such a disproportionate amount of collected taxes. 

WSJ

Market Watch: 
More than 44% of Americans pay no federal income tax

Bloomberg:
Top 3% of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Majority of Income Tax in 2016

First, When the top 10% has as much income as the bottom 90%, who do you think pays more federal INCOME taxes? 

Second, the federal government uses payroll taxes in the same way it uses income taxes, so focusing only on income taxes tends to slant the argument.  Payroll taxes have exceeded payouts since the 1980s, and those taxes went to support all other government programs. 

If you're worried about the rich paying too much in federal income taxes, then support policies that reduce income inequality...

 

[TH3]

59 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Stats - and while there are lies, damn lies, and statistics - these stats are showing a trend that the top 1% is paying a greater percentage of all federal taxes today than in the past. I was listening to the radio in my vehicle yesterday, and someone was opining that the top brass in the IRS admitted that needed to be changed - the federal government cannot rely on such a small sliver of people to pay such a disproportionate amount of collected taxes. 

WSJ

Market Watch: 
More than 44% of Americans pay no federal income tax

Bloomberg:
Top 3% of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Majority of Income Tax in 2016

Gee....the CEO of the company I work for makes 400 times more than me but he pays more income tax than the 97 people in my department....I feel bad for him and I should pay more to even things out

 

never ceases to amaze me how much of the general public trots out those stats and interprets them not as a sign of gross inequality.....but as guv bad....

 

Congrats...you are a good sheeple

Edited February 23, 2019 by TH3

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, TH3 said:

Gee....the CEO of the company I work for makes 400 times more than me but he pays more income tax than the 97 people in my department....I feel bad for him and I should pay more to even things out

 

never ceases to amaze me how much of the general public trots out those stats and interprets them not as a sign of gross inequality.....but as guv bad....

 

Congrats...you are a good sheeple

 

You probably don’t realize how good you have it. 

 

How much should a “rich person” be deprived of their wealth for taxes?

[KRC]

If we get rid of income inequality, who is going to pay for all of the free stuff?

[bilzfancy]

Go to a National Sales Tax or the Fair Tax, problem solved, or is that too easy?

[The_Dude]

3 minutes ago, bilzfancy said:

Go to a National Sales Tax or the Fair Tax, problem solved, or is that too easy?

 

Im not an economist. I like the idea but we’ve got to keep the military running and I’m not sure what an extreme change would do to that. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, TH3 said:

Gee....the CEO of the company I work for makes 400 times more than me but he pays more income tax than the 97 people in my department....I feel bad for him and I should pay more to even things out

 

never ceases to amaze me how much of the general public trots out those stats and interprets them not as a sign of gross inequality.....but as guv bad....

 

Congrats...you are a good sheeple

If we all got equal meal rations and pay cards from the government, we would be way better off.

Edited February 23, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[TPS]

28 minutes ago, KRC said:

If we get rid of income inequality, who is going to pay for all of the free stuff?

I don't know anyone who says "get rid of" income inequality, but I do know a lot of people who think inequality has grown too extreme in this country.  Really, the only people I've ever heard/read say everyone should have the same income are conservatives who somehow think that's what the left want.

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 hour ago, TPS said:

First, When the top 10% has as much income as the bottom 90%, who do you think pays more federal INCOME taxes? 

Second, the federal government uses payroll taxes in the same way it uses income taxes, so focusing only on income taxes tends to slant the argument.  Payroll taxes have exceeded payouts since the 1980s, and those taxes went to support all other government programs. 

If you're worried about the rich paying too much in federal income taxes, then support policies that reduce income inequality...

 

Apparently, you missed the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote.

In any event... do you know how much the top 1% (households) makes in the United States? (approximately) $421K in revenue. Top 5% is (approximately) $166K. Top 20% is (approximately) $100K. These are households (usually two income earners).  My guess is you are actually miffed at the top 1% of the 1%-ers (a totally different stratosphere) for being able to earn so much.

Instead of wealth re-distribution, how about more education, training, incentives to open businesses (which can be a great way to build wealth - provided you know what you are doing, have a great idea, and fulfill a need). It would require a complete rethinking in some circles that "smart" is cool (rather than "I'm gonna get that sports contract!"). It would also require current funds to be better utilized. 

I do know that I have zero interest in paying more in taxes. As a matter of fact, I try not to earn too much more in earned income as I have to hit the SS maximum to make it worth my while from a tax standpoint (I am technically retired, and our tax rate is different for earned income versus capital gains). If I feel that way, I imagine many others feel the same? Unless the government becomes smaller and leaner or allows me to pick and choose where I want my tax dollars to go (hahahaha to all of that!), I have no desire to subsidize another "government program" that feeds an "entitlement" mentality. 

[DC Tom]

When it's in excess of what's needed to fund non-exclusive-use services.

[TakeYouToTasker]

2 hours ago, TPS said:

First, When the top 10% has as much income as the bottom 90%, who do you think pays more federal INCOME taxes? 

Second, the federal government uses payroll taxes in the same way it uses income taxes, so focusing only on income taxes tends to slant the argument.  Payroll taxes have exceeded payouts since the 1980s, and those taxes went to support all other government programs. 

If you're worried about the rich paying too much in federal income taxes, then support policies that reduce income inequality...

 

 

I’m not sure where anyone gets off thinking they have the just authority to dictate to others what they’re permitted to earn.

 

Its the peak of narcissism and immorality.

[The_Dude]

23 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

I’m not sure where anyone gets off thinking they have the just authority to dictate to others what they’re permitted to earn.

 

Its the peak of narcissism and immorality.

 

Not “earn,” “keep.” They feel they’re in charge of what another should be allowed to keep. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by The_Dude

[B-Man]

When Does Taxation Turn Into Oppression?

By Walter "Bruno" Korschek, 2012

 

The Tax Foundation released its annual tax analysis for this year, analyzing all of the taxes that Americans pay to all levels of government. Their findings this year include the following highlights:

 

•In 2012, the average American family will spend 29% of its income on taxes.

 

•This year's Tax Freedom Day of 29% is up from 26.6% in 2009, Obama's first year in office.

 

•This is more than the average American family will spend on food, clothing, and housing COMBINED.

 

•Tax Freedom Day, the day when an average American family stops working
for government and the political class, will arrive on April 17 this year, four days later than last year and nine days later than in 2009, Obama's first year in office.

 

•In other words, the average American family works 107 days for the government in 2012 before it starts working for itself.

 

•The earliest Tax Freedom Days are in Tennessee (March 31), Louisiana (April 1), and Mississippi (April 1).

 

•The latest Tax Freedom Days are in Connecticut (May 5), New York, (May 1), and New Jersey (May 1).

 

Now, many people will go off on a tangent, blaming Bush and the Bush tax cuts, claiming that the rich do not pay enough in taxes, the rich get too many tax breaks, etc. But they miss the bigger point. 29% confiscation rates of our wealth is bordering on oppression. A favorite saying of mine is that you cannot have political freedom without financial freedom and financial freedom is difficult to maintain when almost $.30 out of every dollar you work hard to earn goes to the political class.

 

By giving the political class 29% of your earnings, you have less freedom to live where you want to live. You have less freedom to send your kids to better schools. You have less freedom to start your own business. Your have less freedom to give your personal wealth to your favorite charities. You have less time to indulge in your favorite past times. You have less freedom.

 

And what do we get for this 29% confiscation:

 

1.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses $70-90 billion worth of it every year via waste and criminal fraud in the Medicare program.

 

2.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses about $40-60 billion of it every year via waste and criminal fraud in the Medicaid program.

 

3.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses about $120 billion of it every year via waste and fraud in the Social Security program.

 

4.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings but fails to collect over $300 billion a year from other Americans, your neighbors, who evade paying their legal and fair share of taxes.

 

5.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses over $20 billion of it every year via waste and criminal fraud in the unemployment insurance programs.

 

6.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses billions of it every year via fraud and criminal activity in its food stamp programs.

 

7.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses billions of it via government loans, grants and cronyism because of failed alternative energy programs, including Solyndra, Beacon, Evergreen, ENER1, Spectra, and others.

 

8.The political class takes this 29% of your annual earnings and misuses it via government inefficiencies such as the recent disclosure that the GSA recently misspent almost a million dollars worth of your earnings on ONE conference or the disclosure that the US Navy spent $300 million to built two ships that it then scrapped at a cost of $10 million without ever utilizing those ships.

 

9.The political class takes 29% of your annual earnings and misuses it via the unnecessary foreign deployment of U.S. military personnel around the world, deployments that no longer serve any useful or strategic military purpose.

 

10.The political class takes 29% of your annual earnings and fails to fix our failing public schools, fails to solve the war on drugs problem, fails to come up with a coherent and strategic energy independence plan, fails to seal our borders and come up with a coherent and compassionate illegal immigrant plan, fails to come up with a coherent and effective way to tame escalating health care costs, and fails in just about any other program or project they embark on.

 

If you think April 17 and working 107 days for the political class is an insult and oppression, you may have not seen anything yet, given the following wave of negative tax impacts that are about to hit every American, a wave that the Washington Post calls "Taxmageddon:"

 

Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/blog/16069#ixzz5gO28yk8m

 

[TPS]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Apparently, you missed the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote.

In any event... do you know how much the top 1% (households) makes in the United States? (approximately) $421K in revenue. Top 5% is (approximately) $166K. Top 20% is (approximately) $100K. These are households (usually two income earners).  My guess is you are actually miffed at the top 1% of the 1%-ers (a totally different stratosphere) for being able to earn so much.

Instead of wealth re-distribution, how about more education, training, incentives to open businesses (which can be a great way to build wealth - provided you know what you are doing, have a great idea, and fulfill a need). It would require a complete rethinking in some circles that "smart" is cool (rather than "I'm gonna get that sports contract!"). It would also require current funds to be better utilized. 

I do know that I have zero interest in paying more in taxes. As a matter of fact, I try not to earn too much more in earned income as I have to hit the SS maximum to make it worth my while from a tax standpoint (I am technically retired, and our tax rate is different for earned income versus capital gains). If I feel that way, I imagine many others feel the same? Unless the government becomes smaller and leaner or allows me to pick and choose where I want my tax dollars to go (hahahaha to all of that!), I have no desire to subsidize another "government program" that feeds an "entitlement" mentality. 

The point of your post, as has been made here many times, is that the top pay the most federal income taxes. That's not debatable. Why do they pay the most? That's where the money is.  Since the top 10% of filers have almost 50% of agi, then of course that's where most of the revenue will come from.  That was my point. In addition, I pointed out that income taxes are only one source of funding the federal government.  Btw, I'm not sure what your data source is, but from just looking at a source that analyzed the 2015 tax data, $480K was the cutoff for the top 1% (AGI) of individuals, so I would think the cutoff for HHs is higher. 

 

Regarding this post, I'm not miffed at anyone, and I agree that we ought to pursue programs that help raise the earning's power at the bottom.  If there were easy solutions, then I'm sure we'd be there already.  That said, I would argue that many who are in those top brackets (esp the <1%) "earn" their pay from positions of power, not really the market. As TH3 mentioned about his CEO. The ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay in the US is an outlier in the developed world. CEOs and their Boards have a nice little gig going in the US, and even if they F%&K up a company, they get millions just to go away.  So, yes, I do think we ought to tax those in the 0.1, 0.01,. and 0.001 brackets more.  

 

Last, as I've tried to argue in other posts, government has helped create trillions of dollars of wealth over time via spending in excess of its revenues (over $18 trillion to date), so the argument that it is confiscating wealth is not so clear cut.  One little example, the majority of revenue received by the top 5 defense contractors comes from the government. The wealth that people associated with these companies have gained over time is mainly the result of government spending. Is the government confiscating their wealth or is it simply transferring back that which it helped create?  This  last question is for the dude....

[Boatdrinks]

38 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Apparently, you missed the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote.

In any event... do you know how much the top 1% (households) makes in the United States? (approximately) $421K in revenue. Top 5% is (approximately) $166K. Top 20% is (approximately) $100K. These are households (usually two income earners).  My guess is you are actually miffed at the top 1% of the 1%-ers (a totally different stratosphere) for being able to earn so much.

Instead of wealth re-distribution, how about more education, training, incentives to open businesses (which can be a great way to build wealth - provided you know what you are doing, have a great idea, and fulfill a need). It would require a complete rethinking in some circles that "smart" is cool (rather than "I'm gonna get that sports contract!"). It would also require current funds to be better utilized. 

I do know that I have zero interest in paying more in taxes. As a matter of fact, I try not to earn too much more in earned income as I have to hit the SS maximum to make it worth my while from a tax standpoint (I am technically retired, and our tax rate is different for earned income versus capital gains). If I feel that way, I imagine many others feel the same? Unless the government becomes smaller and leaner or allows me to pick and choose where I want my tax dollars to go (hahahaha to all of that!), I have no desire to subsidize another "government program" that feeds an "entitlement" mentality. 

While your figure of 421k in income represents the threshold to put a taxpayer in the 1%, it’s not exactly the whole picture. The threshold is quite different from state to state, and the average income of the top 1% of earners nationwide is actually $1.32 million. So while an income of $255 k gets you into the 1% in New Mexico, you’d need to triple that income to make the top 1% if you moved to Connecticut. The bottom line is,  an AGI of $ 1.3 million gets you in the top 1% of all tax returns in the US. So nationally ,while the top 50% of returns paid 97% of all individual income taxes in 2016 and the bottom 50% paid the other 3% it takes an AGI of $40,000 or less to cross the threshold into the bottom 50%. 

[whatdrought]

Here's a novel idea, make income taxes based on a flat percentage rate. 

 

Say 10%, hypothetically. 

 

If I make S100,000 and pay 10% I pay $10,000.00 in taxes. 

If you make $1000.00 and pay 10% you pay $100.00 in taxes.

 

That's equality.