Fake-Fat Sunny Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 It does amuse me that folks seem to be so upset and have their panties all up in a wad about out OL. We do have some big issues. Not having a clear starter for the LT position and the LG position mere months before the season starts is a huge issue where the course of the season will be determined. However, when I look at this problem, I see it more as an exercise of choosing which of the many options to cut because I see no likely development that way, rather than feeling we are DOOMED because there are no viable options. On the contrary, the problem which I see is that there are too many possible options to choose from and this will be a major test of JMac to sort through these options. The other major problem for him is that in addition to there being too many options for me to make a rational judgement which will work best, none of these options are obvious gurantees to work or even very good or very likely choices. The good news for Bills fans is that JMac has a demonstrated record of turning average performers at best (like Dusty Ziegler and Glenn Parker with his NYG squad) into a group capable of making the SB. The SB is way too much to expect from this team and a second year QB, but since I think a lot of successful football begins with quality play from the OL, I have to feel very good about the many options out there for the Bills and JMac's ability not to be a miracle worker but to pull off the same kind of success he has accomplished going to three SBs during his career as an OL position coach. As it stands right now, the Bills will need to identify about 10 OL roster players and have a couple on the PS for injuries and/or development. They have 11 OL players on the roster, 2 FAs who were on last year's roster they seem not likely to resign, 1 potential addition as trade value for Henry which may/may not happen (this week the tea leaves are good), and the strong potential to get 1 or 2 players from the draft as this is seen as one of the strongest crowds at center in years. The question is more to me is who do they cut among some fairly interesting (though unlikely to hit) development projects. Specifically: Villarial - ink him in at RG. He allowed the Bills to go without a back-up on the depth chart for him last year (though eventually they did have to fill in for him due to a nick). I think he deserves a lot of the credit for schooling Mike Williams in how to be a pro. One of the greatest failings of Vinky and Ruel under GW is that the actually seem to expect MW to carry Sullivan and Pucillo who the put in at RG next to MW. MW- ink him in at RT. There was some talk of flipping him to the LT slot because of the conract demands there and the huge MW contract essentially makes it impossible for the Bills to allocate the level of money a good but essentially unproven (when it comes to a 5+ million cap hit) needed to sign a Jennings when he hits FA. However, the Bills need to make the OL cap allocation work and if it is skewed in a non-traditional direction like RT so be it. I think the Bills feel comfortable enough with Losman's mobility and his college career running for his life and dealing with the potential for blindside hits that they are going to concentrate on getting MWs head on straight at RT before they consider flipping him. Teague- pencil him in at C. He has developed into one of the Bills better players on the OL because of his smarts. He has overcome an inability to multitask which made it hard for him to read rushes AND do line switches AND deliver a quality hike (particularly his adventures in shotguns, DB really saved our butt with his good hands several times though his need to focus on the snap took away from his ability to focus on reading the play) AND deal with rushes from the increasingly larger and aggressive DTs. He does muvh better at pulling all these functions off simultaneously though he ended up on his butt too many times as he was learning. However, though I am comfortable with his C play, he is not a dominating force there for folks used to a Kent Hull. In addition, the gap we now have an LT (a position he onced manned for Denver) makes it attractive to move him to LT if there is still an opening and instead we go for picking up a cheaper than LT C among the increased C talent pool in this league. We'll see. LG- A gap was left by the necessity to cut Ruben because time made the cap hit of cutting him the same as keeping him and he correctly took on Kevin Killdrive, but once you publicly take on the boss your days are numbered. Pucillo proved not the player for this job and got benched. Lawrence Smith made a huge jump to start here from the Ravens PS and though this is admirable, his problems with redzone effectiveness and the oddity that he apparently was a better pass blocker than the supposedly easier task of run blocking sealed his fate last year as the LG. Tucker filled in here nicely late in the season and was helped having a stud runner like WM to read off his blocks. However, he seems more valuable as a back-up C and actually came to the nFL as T so having him at LG is a stretch. Smith was not adequate, but he made such a huge jump in performance last year it strikes me as unreasonable to give up on him because he was not (yet) adequate to start. However, the Bills have him on the roster as a T and he actually filled in for the oft-injured Jennings when Price was busy at RT so i doubt Smith is an option here. Pucillo is done and Tucker is better elsewhere so look for the Bills to draft a player ready to start at G (possible with this deep draft with or first pick in round 2 (particularly if we flip with AZ). In addition, to that option Gandy who was acquired (likely as the new Marcus Price in my mind) played G for the Bears in his last starting job and is a possibility here. In addition, the Bills have several development options like Jaen Esposito who is almost certainly not ready to start but has a year under JMac and knows the system. LT- There is a gap here with the FA departure of JJ, but quite frankly due to him missing starting due to injuries and failing to finish several games for the same reason, even JJ left a gap here from 1/3 to approaching half the games. I could not see him staying unless he LT market (where teams are already overpaying folks like Clifton and Petitgout) only gave him an option which allowed the Bills to resign him for $3 million. SF proved willing to overpay him and good luck to himand them because I think the Bills were smart not to overpay him. We are left with a veritable ton of options at LT however. Most of them will not work out but they are options nonetheless. Dylan McFarland- TSW mogul John from Hemet has identified him as a possibility which is possible as he merited some PT last year, but it strikes me as quite unlikely he will perform well enough to be more than a back-up. Jason Peters- TSW denizen Simon flagged this possibility, but it is my sense that the Bills braintrust is merely blowing smoke for opponents with persistent rumors of him as a T starter because of his athletic talent. If he is such an athletic wonder then why take the ball out of his hand given our need at TE as well. David Pruce- All world LT with Frankfurt in the NFLE last year is an indicator he can play and losing this development project will be a rough cut to make, but again someone I see as a back-up at best. Smith- He interests me because I want to see how far he can develop. T seems like a more natural position for him given what he has shown as a pass blocker and difficulty he had attacking or being a pullling guard which showed up in the redzone. Still a possibility. All the above possibilities make more sense to me if MW switched to LT (he guarded the blindside in college for a left-handed QB) and these players would take on the lesser responsibility of learning at RT rather than learning at LT. Still who knows. In addition to these flyers there are also 3 possibilities from players who have started at T before. Gamdy- The Bills braintrust sees something in him and maybe that is LT where he started much of the season before last for the lowly Bears. He is another possibility, but I see him as more the backup playing the Price role. MW- If he were able to make the flip it opens up all sorts of options for the Bills, but though this is possible, I like the idea of keeping him at RT for at least another year and really making sure he has learned to be a Pro. Teague- This is my lead option if the season were going to begin today (but it isn't and I exoect the Bills will explore other LT options though I am comfortable that a Teague given 3 years oof additional knowledge and skill as our C would actually prove more productive than the model which was adequate at best at LT for Denver. Shelton- He is not on our roster (yet), but i for one was as pleased as punch to hear talk of this deal being renewed. Henry has obviously given up on the idea that he can beat out WM (a correct judgment in my view, but the WM injury history should actually make him comfortable bidding his time). Worse yet, many fans have given up on Henry so I am happy to see the Bills trade him for value assuming we can get it. Fir me, I think many fans place too much value in the draft where TD estimates (as estimate I have not seen factually controverted) that even a 1st roun choice working out is 50/50. Add to that the relative rarity of any player drafted below the 3rd round being much of a contributor his first couple of years (and even 2 or 3rd ound choices stuggling to become vets) and the draft is next to worthless for me as an immediate resource. Thus value for Henry to me must be a vet or even one I judge a lesser player than Henry. So even if folks think Shelton sucks I'd be happy to see us get him for Henry who will likely not contribute much to this team this year. In fact, if we trade Henry for Shelton and flip he choices so we can obtain Baas or some other OL player predicted to start, the problem becomes an embarassment of riches on the OL. Add to this mix the wildcard of Sobieski who is still on the roster and also the availabity if worse comes to worse of FAs Marcus Price (still a viable back-up in my book though I think with Gandy and others we have tons of options) and even Pucillo (please as i think he is a goner), then it appears to me that the Bills problem is one of too many options at OL than too few. True, none of them is Tony Boselli, but JMac has gotten an OL to the SB with Ziegler or Parker as his best players rather than a player with skill ofBoselli at his peak so I am not worried in an untoward way about the OL at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad1 Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 MY EYES! MY EYES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 MY EYES! MY EYES! 290194[/snapback] If Mike Williams does not perform to an extremely high level for a RT, I am thinking that he will be cut after 6/1/06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfmeister Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I don't want to cut anyone else. Last year our starting QB got cut and he Bledsoe ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 On the face of things, our o-line needs some serious attention. We need a LT and LG and center should be upgraded. I hope we make the Shelton trade so we can focus on LG and center. I appreciate that McNally is an excellent coach, but he can't make something out of nothing. Teague should not play LT and Peters/Bannon are not ready to come in and contribute immediately. Let's be realistic. At a minimum, we have a serious need for a quality LT, particularly since we have a rookie qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 It does amuse me that folks seem to be so upset and have their panties all up in a wad about out OL. To answer the question in the thread title: David Pruce, Lawrence Smith, Jasen Esposito and Ben Sobieski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 my crystal ball says.... the trade goes down, LJ Shelton is our starting LT, Gandy is the starting LG TD gets the 11 spots and picks Spencer. Villarrial is still the starter at RG and Mike williams RT we keep teague only because he can fill in at all 5 spots and on short yardage he can be a TE. we keep Peters for this one last year and Tucker too the others are up in the air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I agree with Frogger, although I'd like us to take a long look at Pruce and McFarland. Smith and Espo are probably gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Smith- He interests me because I want to see how far he can develop. T seems like a more natural position for him given what he has shown as a pass blocker and difficulty he had attacking or being a pullling guard which showed up in the redzone. Still a possibility. 290177[/snapback] I'm with you on the vast majority of your analysis so of course let me point out the one thing I have trouble with: Those same concrete spikes that make Smith a non-factor in space on running downs would spell disaster on either edge of the line. He can hide them inside in pass blocking since for an OG pass pro is more of a slow dance with your feet, but on the edge you've got something more akin to a tango. I'd like to see him develop his coordination to the max by putting in 3 hours of jumping rope every day this off-season but even then I suspect he just doesn't have the liveliness in his legs necessary to ever be a effective pulling run blocker or pass blocker on the edge. If he did get a look at OT I'd have to believe they'd want him to get the protection of having a TE help him out more often on the Strong side, but even then there's an awful risk against any DE with lateral speed. It's also hard to imagine him picking up a smaller blitzer- IMO he just doesn't have the instincts to make the adjustments to his sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted March 30, 2005 Author Share Posted March 30, 2005 I'm with you on the vast majority of your analysis so of course let me point out the one thing I have trouble with: Those same concrete spikes that make Smith a non-factor in space on running downs would spell disaster on either edge of the line. He can hide them inside in pass blocking since for an OG pass pro is more of a slow dance with your feet, but on the edge you've got something more akin to a tango. I'd like to see him develop his coordination to the max by putting in 3 hours of jumping rope every day this off-season but even then I suspect he just doesn't have the liveliness in his legs necessary to ever be a effective pulling run blocker or pass blocker on the edge. If he did get a look at OT I'd have to believe they'd want him to get the protection of having a TE help him out more often on the Strong side, but even then there's an awful risk against any DE with lateral speed. It's also hard to imagine him picking up a smaller blitzer- IMO he just doesn't have the instincts to make the adjustments to his sides. 290495[/snapback] I'm uncertain about Smith myself. Perhaps him making the jump from the Ravens PS to be a starter for the Bills is simply testimony to how bad Pucillo was and JMac went with him out of desperation. However, because my expectations were so low for a PS player from another squad, he exceeded my expectations. Folks seem to judge him by a standard of whether he is an adequate Bills LG. I'm not sure how reasonable that is for us fans to do as we found a guy repetitively voted to the Pro Bow lacking here as well. Its no surprise that Smith also fell short of our lofty standards. However, my only sense is that if he shows the same level of progress he showed moving from Ravens PS level to inadequate contributor as a Bills starter, he will be great this year. I will believe it when I see it but you gotta give the guy a chance abd would be foolish not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Here's what I see happening on the O-Line... Peters will be the Starter at LT unless he just sucks out loud... The Bills will Draft and Start either a C or a LG... The Right Side is set in stone... Teague will Start somewhere... McFarland gets a Spot because TD/TM Drafted him only a year ago... If the Bills Trade for Shelton (and right now I think the chances are pretty good they will) he will be given a chance to Start at LG first and formost, LT second, or he'll be the 6th Lineman... Note - Did I mention I think McNally, and for that matter all the Bills Coaches, love Jason Peters...And I think the Bills believe Peters is a great Athlete...for a LT...not necessarily for a TE though... Ross Tucker will obviously stick as a Back-Up... That's 8 out of 10 probable Spots with the Draft Pick and Shelton...I imagine Sobieski has a good chance of returning, maybe another Draft Pick, Smith, or even Marcus Price as the last O-Lineman... Of coarse...I could be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCCEO Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Unfortunately it's tough to gather enough information to evaluate reserve lineman to the point wher eI can definitavely say "i think he shoudl be cut". This is the type of thing that I try not to think too hard about because its hard to evaluate offensive linemen especially since we never know blocking assignments or calls or anything. Conversely, it is easy to see when Teague or Smith get basted past for a sack. However, I think that given the current state of the line the best idea is just to sit back and pray that the coaches can figure things out. Also hope that everyhting works out in FA/trades/draft like TD wants it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 It does amuse me that folks seem to be so upset and have their panties all up in a wad about out OL. We do have some big issues. Not having a clear starter for the LT position and the LG position mere months before the season starts is a huge issue where the course of the season will be determined. 290177[/snapback] The last I checked the NFL regular season does not start before September, which gives us 5 more months to figure our line out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinVA Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I don't want to cut anyone else. Last year our starting QB got cut and he Bledsoe ... 290359[/snapback] So much he needed a tourniquet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted March 30, 2005 Author Share Posted March 30, 2005 Here's what I see happening on the O-Line... Peters will be the Starter at LT unless he just sucks out loud... Note - Did I mention I think McNally, and for that matter all the Bills Coaches, love Jason Peters...And I think the Bills believe Peters is a great Athlete...for a LT...not necessarily for a TE though... Of coarse...I could be wrong... 290510[/snapback] Thanks fo the detailed contribution to the discussion. You could be wrong but then we all could be (except those who for some reason insist their voews are a stpne cold lock even though they obviously are not) so I'm glad you like most fans dod not let the threat of inaccuracy stop you from thinking or posting about this. The one comment I would have is the question of Jason Peters. Fundamentally, I buy the idea that he is a phenomenal athlete. One need only to have heard the stories of how he forced his way onto the starting ST unit since he proved to be unblockable by our starters when he played the opponent on the scout team. He turned this into a TD in a game by not only blocking a punt, but being enough of a ball hawk with body control and soft-hands that he blocked it, got up , and recovered the ball in the endzone. This and the fact he fought his way onto the roster off the PS (I assume because the word was out that he might get signed elsewhere) onto the roster are objective proof to me that he is a phenomenal athlete. My question however, is that given he is so phenomenal an athlete who got signed by us as a UDFA because though mentally he is a taco short of a combination platter he has tremendous speed, size, athleticism, and soft hands why would we take the ball out of his hands by using him as a tackle rather than a TE. True we do have needs at LT that Bills partisans are desperate to fill, but we also have needs at TE where our #1 and #2 both needed ACL surgery. Even for a phenomenal athlete, the rap on Peters was always not that he could not recieve the ball, but that the was not enough of a blocker to take on the important TE swing role in that regard. Has his phenomenal athleticism suddenly produced such spectacular blocking prowess that the Bills themselves are taking steps to assure that Peters never catches a pass again? I think he is a TE and the talk of Peters at T is simply blowing smoke to confuse the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiew Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 we keep teague only because he can fill in at all 5 spots and on short yardage he can be a TE Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Thanks fo the detailed contribution to the discussion. You could be wrong but then we all could be (except those who for some reason insist their voews are a stpne cold lock even though they obviously are not) so I'm glad you like most fans dod not let the threat of inaccuracy stop you from thinking or posting about this. The one comment I would have is the question of Jason Peters. Fundamentally, I buy the idea that he is a phenomenal athlete. One need only to have heard the stories of how he forced his way onto the starting ST unit since he proved to be unblockable by our starters when he played the opponent on the scout team. He turned this into a TD in a game by not only blocking a punt, but being enough of a ball hawk with body control and soft-hands that he blocked it, got up , and recovered the ball in the endzone. This and the fact he fought his way onto the roster off the PS (I assume because the word was out that he might get signed elsewhere) onto the roster are objective proof to me that he is a phenomenal athlete. My question however, is that given he is so phenomenal an athlete who got signed by us as a UDFA because though mentally he is a taco short of a combination platter he has tremendous speed, size, athleticism, and soft hands why would we take the ball out of his hands by using him as a tackle rather than a TE. True we do have needs at LT that Bills partisans are desperate to fill, but we also have needs at TE where our #1 and #2 both needed ACL surgery. Even for a phenomenal athlete, the rap on Peters was always not that he could not recieve the ball, but that the was not enough of a blocker to take on the important TE swing role in that regard. Has his phenomenal athleticism suddenly produced such spectacular blocking prowess that the Bills themselves are taking steps to assure that Peters never catches a pass again? I think he is a TE and the talk of Peters at T is simply blowing smoke to confuse the enemy. 290861[/snapback] You could be 100% right...And by no means am I saying Peters is going to be awesome...I have absolutely no idea on that one... But I do feel the Bills Coaches think he will be awesome...We'll see what happens I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Frenkle Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Thanks fo the detailed contribution to the discussion. You could be wrong but then we all could be (except those who for some reason insist their voews are a stpne cold lock even though they obviously are not) so I'm glad you like most fans dod not let the threat of inaccuracy stop you from thinking or posting about this. The one comment I would have is the question of Jason Peters. Fundamentally, I buy the idea that he is a phenomenal athlete. One need only to have heard the stories of how he forced his way onto the starting ST unit since he proved to be unblockable by our starters when he played the opponent on the scout team. He turned this into a TD in a game by not only blocking a punt, but being enough of a ball hawk with body control and soft-hands that he blocked it, got up , and recovered the ball in the endzone. This and the fact he fought his way onto the roster off the PS (I assume because the word was out that he might get signed elsewhere) onto the roster are objective proof to me that he is a phenomenal athlete. My question however, is that given he is so phenomenal an athlete who got signed by us as a UDFA because though mentally he is a taco short of a combination platter he has tremendous speed, size, athleticism, and soft hands why would we take the ball out of his hands by using him as a tackle rather than a TE. True we do have needs at LT that Bills partisans are desperate to fill, but we also have needs at TE where our #1 and #2 both needed ACL surgery. Even for a phenomenal athlete, the rap on Peters was always not that he could not recieve the ball, but that the was not enough of a blocker to take on the important TE swing role in that regard. Has his phenomenal athleticism suddenly produced such spectacular blocking prowess that the Bills themselves are taking steps to assure that Peters never catches a pass again? I think he is a TE and the talk of Peters at T is simply blowing smoke to confuse the enemy. 290861[/snapback] Hopefully it'll lead to a lot of tackle eligible plays to Peters in the end zone. Either way, if they're moving him to LT permanently, they must think he'll be a good enough T to make the switch. It will be interesting to watch, especially if the Shelton trade goes through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 He turned this into a TD in a game by not only blocking a punt, but being enough of a ball hawk with body control and soft-hands that he blocked it, got up , and recovered the ball in the endzone. This and the fact he fought his way onto the roster off the PS (I assume because the word was out that he might get signed elsewhere) onto the roster are objective proof to me that he is a phenomenal athlete. The one thing you didn't note was the fact that he actually ran around the ball in the endzone before falling on it. That showed me that he's football smart - unlike so many others who dive forward and take the chance on not securing the ball or having your momentum push the ball out of bounds. My question however, is that given he is so phenomenal an athlete who got signed by us as a UDFA because though mentally he is a taco short of a combination platter he has tremendous speed, size, athleticism, and soft hands why would we take the ball out of his hands by using him as a tackle rather than a TE. Because this is the NFL, not college. He may be fast in a straight line but whether he's able to cut hard enough to gain separation is in question. He looks to me like an injury risk because big guys who have to make quick direction changes while running full speed tend to have significant lower leg problems. True we do have needs at LT that Bills partisans are desperate to fill, but we also have needs at TE where our #1 and #2 both needed ACL surgery. Even for a phenomenal athlete, the rap on Peters was always not that he could not recieve the ball, but that the was not enough of a blocker to take on the important TE swing role in that regard. "Tight end Jason Peters, Jr. - Peters played in 13 games last year starting 12, and he made four catches. At 320 pounds, he's more of a third tackle than a pass catcher. Used on the right side, he combines with Shawn Andrews to be a devastating side of run blockers." - From my scouting book 2003. From what I've been able to gleen, Peters caught a total of 28 passes in his college career. Has his phenomenal athleticism suddenly produced such spectacular blocking prowess that the Bills themselves are taking steps to assure that Peters never catches a pass again? Because Jim McNally probably thinks he can turn him into a great LT - which are alot harder to find than TEs. IF this is in fact what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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