Shaw66 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: I disagree here...I think they are going to be aggressive in both free agency AND the draft when it comes to OL. You can see the trend of the league especially when you look at the colts....improve the OL and watch your team get better as a whole. Maybe. I'm just saying what I understand is McBeane's philosophy based on what they've said. I think they want to grow their offensive line, like every other position, internally.
BillsFan4 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Turk71 said: Can you count? To me I consider the first article you cited to be the one written before the 2017 season started, not the one written AFTER the first 6 games during that season. Stupid me thinking first meant the one written first chronologically. Regardless, I stand by my assertion that the guy who was a "disaster" last season, to quote the same sources you used, is a far less than great pickup. The guy who the Jets jettisoned one year after giving a 4 yr 27 million dollar contract was highly coveted, right? Everyone knows that the Jets just have an embarrassment of riches on the o line and had to let him go. Then again it is the Jets and they are laughable compared to the Bills. One of the big books in Vegas just labeled the Bills tied for last in likelihood to win next year's SB. What the ***** do they know? The real experts wear Bills goggles. I know the NFL is very much a “what have you done for me lately” league, and the fans are similar. But I don’t think it’s unfair to look at Long’s entire body of work, vs only looking at a single season of a 5 year career. The Jets were a mess last year and Long was hurt for most of the year. The NY Jets had a head coach that half the team looked like they quit on, a new OC (who didn’t end up doing all that well) and had Rick Dennison as their run game coordinator. They fully implemented his run scheme. How many Bills linemen did well running Dennison’s zone blocking run scheme? (and that was when we had Wood, Incognito and Glenn (when he wasn’t injured)). Notmto mention they had a rookie QB who wasn’t always very decisive with his throws. Rookies tend to hold the ball longer a small put more pressure on their o line. I have no idea if Long will work out, but it’s not like he’s been garbage his entire career. He was actually a pretty solid G/C before his 1 year in NY. There’s a reason he got that big free agent contract from NY... So I’m hopeful that he will look more like he did in Washington than NY. Only time will tell. Im anxious to see the guaranteed money because that will be more telling as to how they view him. But even with decent guarantees, his cap hit still falls in the range of a low end start or high end backup. It doesn’t preclude the Bills from signing a better/higher paid guaranteed starter. Long’s contract doesn’t guarantee him a starting role. Plus, The Bills still have boatloads of cap space (still top 3 I believe) and many holes to fill on the o line. Long can play guard and center, which is another bonus (and played better at guard for NY last year, after he came back from the injury). He’s immediately the best guard on the Bills IMO. For a Bills team with huge needs on the o line, I don’t see this signing as a bad thing. I cant think of many better lineman that were available to sign right now. Edited February 13, 2019 by BillsFan4
GunnerBill Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 38 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Hyde probably was the one that had a little optimism, but no one was running around thinking he was going to be as good as he is here. I did actually. I bold predicted a pro-bowl and 6 picks year one. Hyde was always one of my favourite non Bills in the league. Undervalued coming out of the draft because he was considered to lack top end speed but when you watched his tape it never hurt him because his instincts and anticipation more than made up for that step. He was criminally underused and misused in Green Bay. I knew he had the potential to be superb here and in McDermott's scheme. That said I am not arguing the crux of your point. I was totally uninspired by the Poyer signing and even the Bills themselves signed Zo as little more than a special teamer. It happens - new start in a new city and a new scheme can bring improvement. I think the crux with Long is last season was down to both the injury and playing mainly at center. I think he is a slightly below average starting center (he is a similar level at center to Bodine for me). But I think he is an above average and perfectly serviceable starting guard who is immediately by a margin the best guard on our roster. I still want another guard though. Someone who can come in and immediately be a dominant player.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I did actually. I bold predicted a pro-bowl and 6 picks year one. Hyde was always one of my favourite non Bills in the league. Undervalued coming out of the draft because he was considered to lack top end speed but when you watched his tape it never hurt him because his instincts and anticipation more than made up for that step. He was criminally underused and misused in Green Bay. I knew he had the potential to be superb here and in McDermott's scheme. That said I am not arguing the crux of your point. I was totally uninspired by the Poyer signing and even the Bills themselves signed Zo as little more than a special teamer. It happens - new start in a new city and a new scheme can bring improvement. I think the crux with Long is last season was down to both the injury and playing mainly at center. I think he is a slightly below average starting center (he is a similar level at center to Bodine for me). But I think he is an above average and perfectly serviceable starting guard who is immediately by a margin the best guard on our roster. I still want another guard though. Someone who can come in and immediately be a dominant player. No shock to me on that Gunner, you are more astute than many on those kind of things. I was actually pretty excited about the Hyde signing myself, however, while I really liked the signing he did still exceed even my optimistic expectations. And like you, I wasnt very inspired by Poyer signing and thought he would be solid place holder at best until we found a long term solution, so he was a bigger surprise for me too. Yeah, said earlier I do not know that he is the "starting" C solution, but as of right now I think he would be the best C currently on the roster and agree probably our best G too. We certainly need a lot more help than just this signing of course, but I really like this move for a February move, especially with the cap room we have. Personally, there is enough FA talent on the OL that I hope we shore the OL up fully in Free Agency and focus on positions like WR, TE, EDGE, and RB in the draft. I think he would be better to surround Allen with quality veteran talent on the OL and then go youthful at the skill positions to grow with Allen.
ngbills Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said: Well he had one bad season so he obviously sucks right? People just ignore the few years in Washington where he played really good and got him that big co tract from the Jets. More like was serviceable in Was but not good enough for them to want to pay him.
GunnerBill Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: No shock to me on that Gunner, you are more astute than many on those kind of things. I was actually pretty excited about the Hyde signing myself, however, while I really liked the signing he did still exceed even my optimistic expectations. And like you, I wasnt very inspired by Poyer signing and thought he would be solid place holder at best until we found a long term solution, so he was a bigger surprise for me too. Yeah, said earlier I do not know that he is the "starting" C solution, but as of right now I think he would be the best C currently on the roster and agree probably our best G too. We certainly need a lot more help than just this signing of course, but I really like this move for a February move, especially with the cap room we have. Personally, there is enough FA talent on the OL that I hope we shore the OL up fully in Free Agency and focus on positions like WR, TE, EDGE, and RB in the draft. I think he would be better to surround Allen with quality veteran talent on the OL and then go youthful at the skill positions to grow with Allen. Anyone hating on this signing should read my post about our interior OL position before this signing. The only guy we had guaranteed to make the roster if healthy is a 2nd season 5th rounder with 7 up and down starts under his belt. At least one more, ideally two more, FAs are needed and they need to draft a young tackle as well. They need to leave no stone unturned - cuts, trades, FA, draft. This line has to improve to give us a chance to properly evaluate where Josh is by the end of his sophmore year. It is two fold - give him the support and remove the excuses. 16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Yeah, said earlier I do not know that he is the "starting" C solution, but as of right now I think he would be the best C currently on the roster and agree probably our best G too. I go the other way round. I think he is as of now the best G on the roster and probably the best C (think him and Bodine is pretty close). 3
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Anyone hating on this signing should read my post about our interior OL position before this signing. The only guy we had guaranteed to make the roster if healthy is a 2nd season 5th rounder with 7 up and down starts under his belt. At least one more, ideally two more, FAs are needed and they need to draft a young tackle as well. They need to leave no stone unturned - cuts, trades, FA, draft. This line has to improve to give us a chance to properly evaluate where Josh is by the end of his sophmore year. It is two fold - give him the support and remove the excuses. Agreed, and I really want to see us go heavy on the OL in Free Agency for this reason. I want to see Josh get proper protection now rather than rely on both drafting the right guys and grooming them which sometimes takes 1 to 3 seasons for them to really round out. Im fine drafting some, but hope they bring in quality veteran players to really anchor the line this year too. There is quality and value in the FA group along the line this year and we have a ton of cap room. And the other big needs aren't nearly as good in FA this year like WR and TE for instance. Some value there, but its probably going to cost too much and both those positions are very rich in talent in the draft. 1
CaptnCoke11 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, ngbills said: More like was serviceable in Was but not good enough for them to want to pay him. Good players leave teams every year in free agency.. So you really make zero sense
GunnerBill Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Agreed, and I really want to see us go heavy on the OL in Free Agency for this reason. I want to see Josh get proper protection now rather than rely on both drafting the right guys and grooming them which sometimes takes 1 to 3 seasons for them to really round out. Im fine drafting some, but hope they bring in quality veteran players to really anchor the line this year too. There is quality and value in the FA group along the line this year and we have a ton of cap room. And the other big needs aren't nearly as good in FA this year like WR and TE for instance. Some value there, but its probably going to cost too much and both those positions are very rich in talent in the draft. I think there is a decent class of FA TEs in terms of guys who can be solid #2s and role players. There isn't a game changer there except Eifert (who is a big injury risk). But there are multiple guys who would immediately be our starting TE. That is another position I favour a twin approach - sign a FA and draft a guy. At receiver I don't think it is a good FA group. I think what we need is a proper veteran leader for that room and the market essentially boils down to Golden Tate and nobody else. I'd be interested in him but suspect he will be offered better terms elsewhere (though hard to gauge). I want no part of Williams. I wouldn't sign a FA WR unless I could get Tate or I'd possibly consider Humphries - nobody else. Help there has to come from the draft. I'd take one early (though not at #9) and take one in those four picks we have early on day 3 as well. 2
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think there is a decent class of FA TEs in terms of guys who can be solid #2s and role players. There isn't a game changer there except Eifert (who is a big injury risk). But there are multiple guys who would immediately be our starting TE. That is another position I favour a twin approach - sign a FA and draft a guy. At receiver I don't think it is a good FA group. I think what we need is a proper veteran leader for that room and the market essentially boils down to Golden Tate and nobody else. I'd be interested in him but suspect he will be offered better terms elsewhere (though hard to gauge). I want no part of Williams. I wouldn't sign a FA WR unless I could get Tate or I'd possibly consider Humphries - nobody else. Help there has to come from the draft. I'd take one early (though not at #9) and take one in those four picks we have early on day 3 as well. I love Tate but I'm guessing he'll go somewhere perceived to be a more immediate Superbowl contender, like Indy or Pittsburgh. How would you feel about Hockensen at #9? Some of the scouting community have him going as high as #7 to Jacksonville. I think Daboll is dying for a really good player at TE that he can feed. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think there is a decent class of FA TEs in terms of guys who can be solid #2s and role players. There isn't a game changer there except Eifert (who is a big injury risk). But there are multiple guys who would immediately be our starting TE. That is another position I favour a twin approach - sign a FA and draft a guy. At receiver I don't think it is a good FA group. I think what we need is a proper veteran leader for that room and the market essentially boils down to Golden Tate and nobody else. I'd be interested in him but suspect he will be offered better terms elsewhere (though hard to gauge). I want no part of Williams. I wouldn't sign a FA WR unless I could get Tate or I'd possibly consider Humphries - nobody else. Help there has to come from the draft. I'd take one early (though not at #9) and take one in those four picks we have early on day 3 as well. There are a couple TE's I like in FA, but I am not convinced they are much better than what Croom can bring to the table. Guys like Jesse James for instance. Hate the idea of signing Eifert, and I loved him in the draft. Cant help the team from medical tent. I would rather go after one of the Iowa TE's or Irv in the draft and let Croom be the veteran guy. Agree on the WR position, however, I would actually prefer Humphries over Tate. I think I would rather pursue a potential #1 guy in the draft. To be honest, I really like the Duke signing. I think Foster and Duke are an intriguing combo to be honest, and yeah I know Duke has to prove it in the NFL still, but its not like this kid ever lacked talent, it was off field stuff that landed him in CFL, and he seems to have matured. Foster and his speed, Duke and his size and catch radius...combine that with Humphries in the slot and one of the WRs in round 1 or 2...thats quite an intriguing group and dont know we need Tate. I wont hate signing Tate by any means, but I think I would rather go with youth over Tate and grab a great slot guy like Humphries to be the Kupp/Edelman type player for Josh while he grows with the youthful core of Foster/Duke/Rookie WR. That would leave Zay on the outside looking in for playing time as the 5th guy on the depth chart. Now he can WORK his way up the ladder to and EARN playing time, because right now he is just not excelling in any one area of his game. Edited February 13, 2019 by Alphadawg7 2
ndirish1978 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I don't disagree. The 2017 oline is not the long-term objective. But it is something like the short-term objective. Wood-Incognito-Glenn IS the kind of core they should be building toward. But I don't expect the Bills to acquire anyone with 6 or 7 or 10 years, like Glenn or Incognito. MAYBE the Bills will sign one more 2019 starting olineman in free agency, but if they do, I doubt they'll also draft one. That is, I think Spencer and one more guy are likely to be the starters added to the team. McBeane want to build through the draft, and although you can occasionally get a good rookie starter in the draft, it's tough to find one after the first round. Offensive linemen come out of college ill-prepared for the pros, and it takes time for them to develop. So McBeane's approach will be, I think, to be patient, to recognize that the starting offensive line in 2019 will NOT be the starting line in 2021, but that the most or all of the 2012 line will be on the team in 2019. At least, that's what I think they're doing. I'd be surprised if they sign more than one more free agent lineman, and if they do, I think it's someone coming off a rookie contract or similar age, like Spain. I doubt they sign a more seasoned veteran. I've agree with almost everything you've said in this thread until this post. I believe we sign at 1-2 more vets and draft 2 OL. There are generally 7 spots reserved for the line and I would expect us to churn over 4-5 of those spots.
GunnerBill Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: There are a couple TE's I like in FA, but I am not convinced they are much better than what Croom can bring to the table. Guys like Jesse James for instance. Hate the idea of signing Eifert, and I loved him in the draft. Cant help the team from medical tent. I would rather go after one of the Iowa TE's or Irv in the draft and let Croom be the veteran guy. Agree on the WR position, however, I would actually prefer Humphries over Tate. I think I would rather pursue a potential #1 guy in the draft. To be honest, I really like the Duke signing. I think Foster and Duke are an intriguing combo to be honest, and yeah I know Duke has to prove it in the NFL still, but its not like this kid ever lacked talent, it was off field stuff that landed him in CFL, and he seems to have matured. Foster and his speed, Duke and his size and catch radius...combine that with Humphries in the slot and one of the WRs in round 1 or 2...thats quite an intriguing group and dont know we need Tate. I wont hate signing Tate by any means, but I think I would rather go with youth over Tate and grab a great slot guy like Humphries to be the Kupp/Edelman type player for Josh while he grows with the youthful core of Foster/Duke/Rookie WR. That would leave Zay on the outside looking in for playing time as the 5th guy on the depth chart. Now he can WORK his way up the ladder to and EARN playing time, because right now he is just not excelling in any one area of his game. I prefer Tate cos we need a leader in that room. A proper seasoned vet who can help our young guys and be relied upon to be in exactly the right spot at exactly the right time for Josh. 3 year contract no guaranteed money in the 3rd year..... that might not get him but I'd try. At Tight End we obviously massively disagree on Croom. I think he sucks. He is a practice squad level player. If I had to keep one of last year's 3 it would be Croom but my preference is to totally remake that room. Someone like Kroft or James is definitely better than Croom. I don't even think it is close. Runs bad routes, has average hands, can't block. 1
Shaw66 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said: I've agree with almost everything you've said in this thread until this post. I believe we sign at 1-2 more vets and draft 2 OL. There are generally 7 spots reserved for the line and I would expect us to churn over 4-5 of those spots. Fine with me. Heaven knows, they need help. BUt they need DBs, LBs, WR and TE too. Only ten picks, and they'll use one or two to trade up, I'm guessing. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I prefer Tate cos we need a leader in that room. A proper seasoned vet who can help our young guys and be relied upon to be in exactly the right spot at exactly the right time for Josh. 3 year contract no guaranteed money in the 3rd year..... that might not get him but I'd try. At Tight End we obviously massively disagree on Croom. I think he sucks. He is a practice squad level player. If I had to keep one of last year's 3 it would be Croom but my preference is to totally remake that room. Someone like Kroft or James is definitely better than Croom. I don't even think it is close. Runs bad routes, has average hands, can't block. Well remember, I have us addressing our starting TE in the draft with one of the Iowa TE's or Irv. I just want one of these TE's in the draft over the guys in FA. I think Croom is suitable to be that 2nd TE with the high quality rookie. Im not against signing Tate, certainly would be a good addition. I just slightly prefer Humphries for this team as I think he is the perfect type of player to help Josh underneath. While Tate can go do that too, I think Humphries will be a great value and there are young WRs I am really high on in this draft.
RochesterRob Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 At worst a depth signing for the interior OL and will be competition for starting at guard. Nobody else out there at the moment for the Bills to go after and its not a given the coveted centers will be out there to sign. 1
3rdand12 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Nihilarian said: The Jets also thought they were getting a decent starter from the Redskins, hence the reason they signed him. Then there was a real reason they cut him. So, obviously, they didn't want him at OG or center despite the injury. So, now the Buffalo Bills have a cast off scrub O linemen the Jets didn't want. Is he an upgrade at RG over Mills who they are certain to let leave, probably. Injury or no. I was simply hoping for better than below average though ...even as a backup. put me in that bucket as well. Lets hope they are right about this Guy. and they better know more than most of us here ! lol feels like Bills have done this before with the Offense. Under Mcdermott. In my opinion , humble as it may be , Bills better get the O line right this year. even depth. I will trust the process and use patience with lack of Pass catchers and solid young RB for the future. But i will not be at all happy to only raise level of Offensive line to " just average but we're working on it !! " ! : )
CincyBillsFan Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 Late to this thread but overall I like this signing: * Even playing as he did in 2018 Long is at least a slight upgrade over what we had at center this year. * Given that an injury limited his effectiveness in 2018 and with the injury now over (?) this may be a solid upgrade to center. * That Long also plays guard, means that the Bills front office could still go out and get an better center and move Long to guard which would also be at minimum a slight upgrade over what we have. * Depth on the O-line is ALWAYS a good thing.
3rdand12 Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I think there is a decent class of FA TEs in terms of guys who can be solid #2s and role players. There isn't a game changer there except Eifert (who is a big injury risk). But there are multiple guys who would immediately be our starting TE. That is another position I favour a twin approach - sign a FA and draft a guy. At receiver I don't think it is a good FA group. I think what we need is a proper veteran leader for that room and the market essentially boils down to Golden Tate and nobody else. I'd be interested in him but suspect he will be offered better terms elsewhere (though hard to gauge). I want no part of Williams. I wouldn't sign a FA WR unless I could get Tate or I'd possibly consider Humphries - nobody else. Help there has to come from the draft. I'd take one early (though not at #9) and take one in those four picks we have early on day 3 as well. Ouch considering it Is a position of need. I would like them to focus on a couple youngsters who can run and catch via the draft. To grow with Allen side by side kind of ? Foster should be one of those guys who can get dialed in with Josh next couple years. Lets get some more. But Bills do need to bolster the WRs as well from FA or trade. give me 2a at least lol. cheers !
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