D'haquille aka Duke Williams, Bills' newest WR better than any draft prospect

[Augie]

38 minutes ago, Logic said:

That's all inference on your part. And I'd be willing to bet that Beane has spent just as much time on the road as Whaley ever did. Go find me a recent interview or article with Beane where he's not either on the road, just back from the road, or just about to set out on the road. 

 

I think one thing we can agree on is....there’s no salary cap on FO or scouting staff. I love that we have owners who are willing and able to go after the best talent evaluators money can buy. I hope other teams keep coming, trying to poach our staff, because THAT means we are doing a great job. I don’t think they did it because Beane is weak, but because they can. 

[mrags]

58 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

so when Rex told Terry Pegula he had better things to do a stunned Pegula pulled the trigger.   If Rex hadn't been such an ungrateful prick he might even have kept his job.

I don’t recall this at all. What are you talking about? Seriously, not picking a fight. I’d love to know what I may have missed here. 

[MJS]

51 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think he has seriously good ability to go get the ball.  His hands catches, albeit in a highlight real, are excellent if not outstanding.  

 

There's been a lot discussion about Zay Jones.   Duke looks like a serious threat to take Jones's job, because he looks so sure-handed.  This guy goes and gets the ball in a crowd, he doesn't seem to get outfought for the ball, he doesn't bobble it.  

Against FAR lesser opponents in the CFL.

 

I hope he works out, but anyone EXPECTING him to be anything more than a role player is just not being realistic. We can all hope, but we sure shouldn't expect it.

[Mat68]

The great hype hope.  

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

I don’t recall this at all. What are you talking about? Seriously, not picking a fight. I’d love to know what I may have missed here. 

I think he was referring to near the end of the season when Rex went to Pegula and straight up asked him if his plan was to fire him after the season, and if that was the plan he shouldn't draw it out. Just do it now. So then Pegula fired him. But it was pretty clear that the plan was to let him go regardless. Pegula just wanted to after the season.

[bmur66]

I love his highlight film. He’s a baller for sure. We will see how he does without a running start against better defenders.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, mrags said:

I don’t recall this at all. What are you talking about? Seriously, not picking a fight. I’d love to know what I may have missed here. 

 

 

Rex told Terry Pegula to fire him on the spot if he was going to do it because he had other things he was interested in doing in what was left of the NFL regular season.     Clemson baby!

 

 

[Bubba Gump]

Reminds me of Eric Moulds. Goes and gets the ball, fights for it. We haven't had a guy like that in a long time. Hopefully he can transition to the NFL, but that is a big task.

[DJB]

No question at minimum hes at least better than Kelvin Benjamin.  

 

I suppose it helps not eating furniture for breakfast like KB does

[Shaw66]

On 2/9/2019 at 6:47 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I completely agree with that.

 

The fundamental mistake was forcing a lame duck Doug Whaley to remain in the GM office all offseason when McD was using everyone BUT Whaley to make personnel decisions.........McD and The Pegs treated that free agency/draft period as if it was some kind of half-speed practice run......or something.............every draft could be your most important ever.........there isn't a sound explanation for what they did.    I mean.......wtf it's not like they didn't ultimately just hire McD's dear friend to be GM(which is almost certainly what the two had been planning for the previous 2-3 years when McD started coming up as a HC candidate).      Just a total head scratcher.

 

 

McD and B don't do anything without a reason.  

 

If I had to guess, I'd say this:   First, they didn't want to go into the draft with a new GM.  Whaley had been running a scouting process for a year, had been collecting information, distilling it and making judgments.   And, as has been pointed, his background was scouting.  He was reasonably good at evaluating talent. 

 

Second, the most important decision was QB, and they (the Pegulas and McD) didn't want a lameduck GM to make that decision.   So, one way or another, they forced the tradeback.  By doing that they assured that the new GM would have extra ammunition in the QB search.  They also knew that the upcoming QB class was strong, so the extra first round pick would likely be useful.  

 

Third, McD knew he was going to tear down the team, but they had enough confidence in Whaley to let him pick at 29 and after that.  

 

Fourth, they began the tear down in 2017, but they also wanted to get a look at some guys through that season before they decided on everyone.   That's why after 2017, they said fans shouldn't expect 2018 to be as good as the playoff season - because they knew that they weren't done cleaning  house.  So the rebuild began a bit in 2017, but it didn't begin in earnest until 2018, when Beane got to run his own draft.  

 

I don't have any trouble seeing McD having the beginnings of that plan in place before the 2017 draft, and the full fledged plan in place went into place shortly after Beane arrived.

 

As I said, they don't do anything without a reason.  

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Rex told Terry Pegula to fire him on the spot if he was going to do it because he had other things he was interested in doing in what was left of the NFL regular season.     Clemson baby!

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

I think he was referring to near the end of the season when Rex went to Pegula and straight up asked him if his plan was to fire him after the season, and if that was the plan he shouldn't draw it out. Just do it now. So then Pegula fired him. But it was pretty clear that the plan was to let him go regardless. Pegula just wanted to after the season.

Ah. I don’t remember any of that. Maybe because I was just so sure Rex was getting fired and wanted him gone for about 27 games. Once he had that abortion against the Giants at home in week 5 I think. His first season. I knew I wanted him gone then 

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) I don't remember hearing how the locker room was a mess under Rex.    The defense was upset with Rex scheme but that's it.  As far as public shouting between coach and GM........once between Marrone and Whaley?   The reality is that they were just poorly coached under Rex.   Pegula thought they should have won 10-11 games so when Rex told Terry Pegula he had better things to do a stunned Pegula pulled the trigger.   If Rex hadn't been such an ungrateful prick he might even have kept his job.

 

2) Whaley was a "scout" GM.   Those guys are rarely good with money.   They did get into "scouting" as a profession, after all.  See John Butler.  Butler stacked talent in Buffalo and SD but he wasn't good at the administrative end.   As I've said..........that type of GM wasn't a good mesh with an ownership that was utterly clueless about how to run an NFL team.    They needed more of an office GM rather than the traveling scout type that Whaley is.   Hence the more administrative Beane.   And then surrounding Beane with what they perceived was the best personnel staff they could buy because they don't expect him to have the eye of a dedicated scout.     As such he's pretty vulnerable if his scouting staffs do a poor job.......like the pro personnel team last offseason.........but also gets accolades if they do well.......like the amateur scouts did(IMO) in the last draft/UDFA. 

1 -  everyone said there was zero accountability under Rex. When you have zero accountability, you have locker room issues.  Dareus getting suspended and coming in fat every year.  Sammy admitting that he didn’t give it his all and that he was an immature baby.  

 

2- after reading the rest of your posts about Beane, it seems to me that much of what you write about his “scouting” or lack there of, is just your, as Logic said, inference.  Yes, Whaley was just a scout.  That doesn’t mean his replacement has to be a one trick pony as well.  Beane seems pretty well rounded to me.  

Edited April 6, 2019 by NewEra

[Sherlock Holmes]

On 2/6/2019 at 4:54 PM, racketmaster said:

I'm not sure he will be our number 1 wr but he will likely get a shot to play in the top 3. I have to assume that he looked around at NFL teams and decided to leave the CFL because he was going to get a legitimate chance to start with the Bills. I do like he body control and ability to catch contested passes. He clearly goes after and attacks the football. He might be a replacement for what the Bills thought they were going to get in Benjamin (a guy who is physical and will make contested catches presenting a bigger target in the red zone).

 

That said, Williams looks like he is a 4.7 speed guy. He is a thick body wr and does not appear to have a ton of speed. But that does not mean he cannot be useful. Dez Bryant could still make plays later in his career even after he had lost some speed and Dez was never known as a speed guy to begin with. I could see Williams taking over as a #2 with Robert Foster being more of the #1 threat. I would not mind this, especially if the Bills signed Humphries to play in the slot.

Still upset we missed out on Humphries... we got Beasly as a consolation now we need to draft Isabella.

[LSHMEAB]

34 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

Reminds me of Eric Moulds. Goes and gets the ball, fights for it. We haven't had a guy like that in a long time. Hopefully he can transition to the NFL, but that is a big task.

I was gonna scoff at the Moulds comparison, but you qualified it nicely. Certainly some similarities in the attack the ball mentality. Moulds lacked breakaway speed as well(never forget when he got caught from behind by TBuck in the Fins playoff game. UGH! 

 

There's definitely a chance and I'm not gonna write him off after Foster's emergence. I was SHOCKED Foster made the team, let alone made a huge splash. So we'll see what happens. Wouldn't be surprised if he was cut and wouldn't be SHOCKED if he had an impact. 

[gobills1212]

40 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

McD and B don't do anything without a reason.  

 

If I had to guess, I'd say this:   First, they didn't want to go into the draft with a new GM.  Whaley had been running a scouting process for a year, had been collecting information, distilling it and making judgments.   And, as has been pointed, his background was scouting.  He was reasonably good at evaluating talent. 

 

Second, the most important decision was QB, and they (the Pegulas and McD) didn't want a lameduck GM to make that decision.   So, one way or another, they forced the tradeback.  By doing that they assured that the new GM would have extra ammunition in the QB search.  They also knew that the upcoming QB class was strong, so the extra first round pick would likely be useful.  

 

Third, McD knew he was going to tear down the team, but they had enough confidence in Whaley to let him pick at 29 and after that.  

 

Fourth, they began the tear down in 2017, but they also wanted to get a look at some guys through that season before they decided on everyone.   That's why after 2017, they said fans shouldn't expect 2018 to be as good as the playoff season - because they knew that they weren't done cleaning  house.  So the rebuild began a bit in 2017, but it didn't begin in earnest until 2018, when Beane got to run his own draft.  

 

I don't have any trouble seeing McD having the beginnings of that plan in place before the 2017 draft, and the full fledged plan in place went into place shortly after Beane arrived.

 

As I said, they don't do anything without a reason.  

Anyone who has issues w this either A) just doesnt get it and wont or B) just like complaining

 

And the post you were replying to - i find it odd he thinks the mcbeane thing was planned in the sense that when he became headcoach, very often he is hired by a GM. Just situationaly there happened to be a lame duck GM. Stars alligned and it was meant to be. Pretty tough to predict a situation as unique as that IMO

[MrEpsYtown]

10 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Good article. My favorite line was "Williams gets his hands on the ball and pulls it in. No double-clutch. No waiting for it to come to his chest." somebody needs to show that to Zay Jones. 

 

But it I do think something's has to give at the position. 

 

Brown, Beasley, Jones, Duke are four guys who do not play special teams, though Beasley returns punts. If Foster is going to be one of your top guys, I'm not sure he plays a ton of teams either. So you essentially have five guys who are offense only guys, and I don't think that is going to work with this regime. Then you have Roberts who can do a bit of everything. That's six guys right there. Maybe you keep seven....I'm interested to see what their strategy will be in the draft and how this position shakes out. But I think Brown Beasley Foster are locks and that Jones and Williams are essentially fighting for a spot. 

 

Duke Williams is the anti Zay Jones. Zay looks like he was created in a  receiver generator. Good size, speed, great agility, big hands and bred in a football family. Williams is big and slow, his measurables are ok. His testing numbers suck, but the dude can ball and just makes plays. I think, at the very least, Zay will have to step up becuase his spot is in jeopardy. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) I don't remember hearing how the locker room was a mess under Rex.    The defense was upset with Rex scheme but that's it.  As far as public shouting between coach and GM........once between Marrone and Whaley?   The reality is that they were just poorly coached under Rex.   Pegula thought they should have won 10-11 games so when Rex told Terry Pegula he had better things to do a stunned Pegula pulled the trigger.   If Rex hadn't been such an ungrateful prick he might even have kept his job.

 

2) Whaley was a "scout" GM.   Those guys are rarely good with money.   They did get into "scouting" as a profession, after all.  See John Butler.  Butler stacked talent in Buffalo and SD but he wasn't good at the administrative end.   As I've said..........that type of GM wasn't a good mesh with an ownership that was utterly clueless about how to run an NFL team.    They needed more of an office GM rather than the traveling scout type that Whaley is.   Hence the more administrative Beane.   And then surrounding Beane with what they perceived was the best personnel staff they could buy because they don't expect him to have the eye of a dedicated scout.     As such he's pretty vulnerable if his scouting staffs do a poor job.......like the pro personnel team last offseason.........but also gets accolades if they do well.......like the amateur scouts did(IMO) in the last draft/UDFA. 

 

17 hours ago, Logic said:

That's all inference on your part. And I'd be willing to bet that Beane has spent just as much time on the road as Whaley ever did. Go find me a recent interview or article with Beane where he's not either on the road, just back from the road, or just about to set out on the road. 

 

I don't often agree with BadoBilz, but I do on this one and if I were you I'd stop arguing with him regarding point #2 as I view that as a big benefit to Beane.  I agree about Butler too, great scout, loved every player he found and signed them to crazy contracts.  Beane is more of an administrative guy.  Yes he does go out scouting but doesn't have the lifetime blood in his veins of scouting like some of these others do like a Whaley.   Whaley is about 5 years older worked for ten years in Pitt in the area of scouting.  From what I recall of the stories written about him when he was first hired, Beane started out getting coffee and picking up dry cleaning.  He's trying to catch up on the scouting part and is doing a good job there, but am very happy that the area of scouting isn't his strong part.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

18 hours ago, Logic said:

Your post completely ignores two critical points.

1.) The culture/locker room when McDermott walked through the door was awful. How many articles did we read from that time about how dysfunctional the ENTIRE Bills organization was from top to bottom? How many shouting matches between head coaches and Whaley took place in public view? Whaley built a collection of talent, but he did not build a team. I don't care that Greg Roman smoke and mirrored the Bills offense to 7th place or that they had a nice collection of names written on paper. The actual team, the team itself, in terms of functioning AS A TEAM, was not built for sustained success. There were some nice coats of paint thrown onto what was ultimately a rotting foundation. 

2.) The way that Whaley handed out and structured contracts DID get the Bills into salary cap trouble. The largest cap hits on the team belonged to guys who either underperformed (Dareus), were often injured (Glenn, Clay), or had questionable character (Dareus again). Sammy Watkins was next on the list of guys who were due a second contract. And guess what? He belonged to group 1 (under-performers) AND group 2 (the often injured). Should they have just extended his deal any way? 

It is certainly fair to say that McDermott and Beane CHOSE to tear down and rebuild the Bills. However, it is important to look at WHY they felt the need to do so. The Bills long term salary cap situation was a mess due to bad contracts. The players who WERE getting big paydays were NOT the type of guys you want to be taking up such large portions of your cap. The culture sucked from top to bottom. The Bills, as constructed, were just good enough to sneak into the playoffs every other year, but didn't have the culture, character, or talent to make it further than that. Even WITH the decision to tear down, jettison bad contracts, and rebuild from scratch, McDermott/Beane's Bills made the playoffs in year 1. Yes, they had a down year 2, but it was a year that featured lots of live reps for their franchise QB (who was obtained largely thanks to their shrewd trading away of the Watkinses and Dareuses of the world for draft capital, thank you), as well as live reps for lots of other crucial youngsters. Now, in just year 3, they have one of the best cap situations in the league and a roster full of promising young players. They are building a team to go BEYOND the occasional wild card weekend, and they are building the right way, with an emphasis on culture and the importance of a sustainable model for success.

Kudos to Beane and McDermott, and pshaw to anyone who pretends like they walked into a rosy situation that didn't need A TON of work.

 

...agree with this and they went about it in the way they felt it had to be done.....also agree on the culture part.......Marrone's big selling point to Brandon was professing "culture change"....he called Brandon almost daily to find out his hire status......problem was Doug acted like General Patton......a close friend (diehard fan) hosted a staff dinner one night after practice and restaurant was 20 minutes late serving..he went nuts and rushes everybody to finish so to make up the 20 minutes...and then back to Fisher for MORE meetings, usually until 9 or 10PM, with Brandon/Whaley required to be there...they got sick of it and turned on him....the culture got worse IMO under Wrecks because he was a bloviating azzclown with no discipline....turning us into his "Jets West Circus" set this club back two years....enter McDermott with his broom, mop, dust pan and dumpster to clean up the mess.....not so sure about Whaley being the contracts culprit......see the 2008 headline about Overdorf's promotion and then decide......he is still there and I doubt he surrendered that control to Whaley.......

 

Bills promote Overdorf to senior VP in minor restructuring

Published: Jan. 31, 2008 at 11:34 a.m.- Associated Press

Updated: July 26, 2012 at 08:17 p.m

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. -- Jim Overdorf was promoted to Buffalo Bills senior vice president of football administration, giving him control over contract negotiations and salary cap decisions.

 

The move announced Thursday was part of a minor front office restructuring that follows Russ Brandon's promotion to chief operating officer. Brandon's promotion came after the Bills elected not to fill the general manager's role after Marv Levy stepped down at the end of the season.

 

For Overdorf, the promotion means he formally becomes the team's top executive in day-to-day football matters, answering to Brandon and Bills owner Ralph Wilson. Overdorf is entering his 23rd season with the team and has handled contract talks for most of this decade.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...agree with this and they went about it in the way they felt it had to be done.....also agree on the culture part.......Marrone's big selling point to Brandon was professing "culture change"....he called Brandon almost daily to find out his hire status......problem was Doug acted like General Patton......a close friend (diehard fan) hosted a staff dinner one night after practice and restaurant was 20 minutes late serving..he went nuts and rushes everybody to finish so to make up the 20 minutes...and then back to Fisher for MORE meetings, usually until 9 or 10PM, with Brandon/Whaley required to be there...they got sick of it and turned on him....the culture got worse IMO undr Wrecks because he was a bloviating azzclown with no discipline....turning us into his "Jets West Circus" set this club back two years....enter McDermott with his broom, mop, dust pan and dumpster to clean up the mess.....not so sure about Whaley being the contracts culprit......see the 2008 headline about Overdorf's promotion and then decide......he is still there and I doubt he surrendered that control to Whaley.......

 

Bills promote Overdorf to senior VP in minor restructuring

Published: Jan. 31, 2008 at 11:34 a.m.- Associated Press

Updated: July 26, 2012 at 08:17 p.m

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. -- Jim Overdorf was promoted to Buffalo Bills senior vice president of football administration, giving him control over contract negotiations and salary cap decisions.

 

The move announced Thursday was part of a minor front office restructuring that follows Russ Brandon's promotion to chief operating officer. Brandon's promotion came after the Bills elected not to fill the general manager's role after Marv Levy stepped down at the end of the season.

 

For Overdorf, the promotion means he formally becomes the team's top executive in day-to-day football matters, answering to Brandon and Bills owner Ralph Wilson. Overdorf is entering his 23rd season with the team and has handled contract talks for most of this decade.

 

 

 

 

Good post. 

Overdorf seems to be the one guy who has survived everyone else and stuck around. Pegula empowered Beane to completely re-shape the front office, and Beane opted to stick with Overdorf, even after jettisoning virtually every other member of the front office staff. 

I get the feeling that while Overdorf takes care of the nuts and bolts of the contracts, he still gets his directive from the GM as far as how much to be willing to spend, how aggressive to be, etc. I don't think he just has carte blanche to do what he wants. I truly don't know, though.

[Doc]

Just now, Logic said:

Good post. 

Overdorf seems to be the one guy who has survived everyone else and stuck around. Pegula empowered Beane to completely re-shape the front office, and Beane opted to stick with Overdorf, even after jettisoning virtually every other member of the front office staff. 

I get the feeling that while Overdorf takes care of the nuts and bolts of the contracts, he still gets his directive from the GM as far as how much to be willing to spend, how aggressive to be, etc. I don't think he just has carte blanche to do what he wants. I truly don't know, though.

 

Judging by the deals being given out, it seems like he takes his orders from the GM.  These are deals unlike those we've seen the past couple decades, despite the Bills having more money than ever before to spend.