LSHMEAB Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: oops - Walsh and Montana are clearly second. I think Belichick is a football genius, and I agree that he could have succeeded with a lot of QBs. In Brady, however, he found perhaps the perfect guy. I'm reading a biography of Belichick. The author suggests that although Belichick certainly didn't wish for Bledsoe to get injured, the injury did for Belichick what he couldn't do himself. Apparently Belichick had already decided he wanted to start Brady, but Kraft had recently extended Bledsoe with a big contract (as we all know!) and given his record, Belichick didn't have the clout to bench Bledsoe. Although all of the rest of us were surprised when Brady succeeded from day one, It sounds like Belichick wasn't. This whole damn thing is Mo Lewis's fault! I wonder how long they would have been saddled with Bledsoe if not for that injury. Not like Drew was injury prone either. They get all the breaks. You could make a case that Bledsoe was the reason for Caroll's relative lack of success. He wasn't terrible, but Kraft mistakenly viewed him as an elite QB, and he wasn't. That set unrealistic expectations for the team. Coach killer. Edited January 31, 2019 by LSHMEAB
Shaw66 Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 22 minutes ago, CommonCents said: Until the rest of the league improves he is always going to be in contention. Starts with the division. The league will never improve to his level. He's unique. And it has nothing to do with his division. I checked the history a couple of weeks ago. I think I checked 2002 through 2018. Over that period, the other three teams in the AFC were just under .500 against all the other teams in the league. That's what you'd expect of any three teams over that period - they'll be around .500. More importantly, the Patriots' record against all of the other teams in the league is BETTER than their record against the AFC East. Over 16 or 17 seasons, the Jets, Dolphins and Bills beat the Patriots MORE than all the other teams. And remember, over just about all of that period, the Patriots were playing a tough schedule out of the division, playing teams that won their divisions the previous season. The Pats AFC East record is all about Belichick, not about the other three teams. Just now, LSHMEAB said: This whole damn thing is Mo Lewis's fault! I wonder how long they would have been saddled with Bledsoe if not for that injury. Not like Drew was injury prone either. They get all the breaks. You're right. Apparently most people expected Belichick to be fired before the season ended. He failed in Cleveland, had a really bad season his first in NE, and his second season had begun poorly, too. Than Bledsoe got hurt and the Patriots won the Super Bowl. 1
Matt_In_NH Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 The only way you get 9 straight AFC championship games (and 9 SB's over 18 years) is with coaching AND quarterbacking. Its the combination, just one would not do it.
LSHMEAB Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: The league will never improve to his level. He's unique. And it has nothing to do with his division. I checked the history a couple of weeks ago. I think I checked 2002 through 2018. Over that period, the other three teams in the AFC were just under .500 against all the other teams in the league. That's what you'd expect of any three teams over that period - they'll be around .500. More importantly, the Patriots' record against all of the other teams in the league is BETTER than their record against the AFC East. Over 16 or 17 seasons, the Jets, Dolphins and Bills beat the Patriots MORE than all the other teams. And remember, over just about all of that period, the Patriots were playing a tough schedule out of the division, playing teams that won their divisions the previous season. The Pats AFC East record is all about Belichick, not about the other three teams. You're right. Apparently most people expected Belichick to be fired before the season ended. He failed in Cleveland, had a really bad season his first in NE, and his second season had begun poorly, too. Than Bledsoe got hurt and the Patriots won the Super Bowl. Imagine them going through another sub 500 season. Belichick goes to Kraft insisting that the reason they weren't winning was because he couldn't play the 6th round pick over the golden boy overall number 1 stud. He may very well have been fired. Just crazy to think about.
CommonCents Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: The league will never improve to his level. He's unique. And it has nothing to do with his division. I checked the history a couple of weeks ago. I think I checked 2002 through 2018. Over that period, the other three teams in the AFC were just under .500 against all the other teams in the league. That's what you'd expect of any three teams over that period - they'll be around .500. More importantly, the Patriots' record against all of the other teams in the league is BETTER than their record against the AFC East. Over 16 or 17 seasons, the Jets, Dolphins and Bills beat the Patriots MORE than all the other teams. And remember, over just about all of that period, the Patriots were playing a tough schedule out of the division, playing teams that won their divisions the previous season. The Pats AFC East record is all about Belichick, not about the other three teams. You're right. Apparently most people expected Belichick to be fired before the season ended. He failed in Cleveland, had a really bad season his first in NE, and his second season had begun poorly, too. Than Bledsoe got hurt and the Patriots won the Super Bowl. The best QB in their division for the past 18 years is Chad Pennington. That’s sad. The divison is a problem. No one said anything about needing to coach at BB’s level. The Chiefs could have easily won that game, Bedard broke the game down in depth. He was laughing out loud at how stupid the Chiefs D Coordinator was, playing a safety 30 yards down field time and time again. Outlining basic coverages that never had a chance. How about the week before? The Chargers tried out the old Steelers soft zone. It was one of the worst gameplans I have seen. When teams make a better effort the Pats decline will be more evident. If teams want to keep acting like they don’t know what’s coming then yes, BB will beat you with the next Matt Cassell.
Shaw66 Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, CommonCents said: The best QB in their division for the past 18 years is Chad Pennington. That’s sad. The divison is a problem. No one said anything about needing to coach at BB’s level. The Chiefs could have easily won that game, Bedard broke the game down in depth. He was laughing out loud at how stupid the Chiefs D Coordinator was, playing a safety 30 yards down field time and time again. Outlining basic coverages that never had a chance. How about the week before? The Chargers tried out the old Steelers soft zone. It was one of the worst gameplans I have seen. When teams make a better effort the Pats decline will be more evident. If teams want to keep acting like they don’t know what’s coming then yes, BB will beat you with the next Matt Cassell. Yeah, there's been a serious QB drought in the AFCE. That's true. But if the Pats were just NORMAL and had been just DECENT, they would have won 5 AFCE titles instead of twelve or whatever they won, and some other AFCE teams would at least have gone to the playoffs, bad QBs or not. As good as the Pats are, it's almost impossible for another AFCE team to make it to the playoffs, because you're always playing for the wildcard, and you start the season 0-2.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 9 hours ago, papazoid said: NE without brady assumes only trash backups at the position come next. they likely would have drafted or signed a different top QB....joey garrapolo, etc.... Brady is slightly better than manning, brees, etc.... In 2018 brady rated 12th in passer rating and 6th in total QBR. the gap between Belichick and the next best HC is cavernous. they need each other, but belichick's talents are more rare. salary cap management, trading away stars before huge contracts for more team controlled draft picks, discilpline, game plans, the patriot way. /thread Belichick was winning Super Bowls with hall of fans game plans when Brady was in middle school. if youre the patsies, have to go back and time and only keep one of the two, it’s not even a hard choice. 4 hours ago, Estelle Getty said: I guess I watch a different game because the Brady I watched was pretty awful in the Cheifs game. His poor 2nd half play is what kept the Chiefs in the game. He looked fine on the last drive because he still has pinpoint accuracy within 15 yards but that won’t be enough for much longer. That offensive scheme always results in Edelman open on third down. It’s unbelievable
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 16 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: Belichick without brady is like a glass without liquid.. a sandwich without meat or pbj. The day Brady retired Belichick retires. It's like the Mob. The shenanigans, cheating will stop. 1
fansince88 Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 Wait, William Stephen Belichick and Thomas Edward Patrick Brady, Jr.are on the same team? No wonder they have been to 6 Super Bowls
Billsfanatic8989 Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 Brady gets too much credit for the win in KC. Chiefs defense was atrocious. So it's not some miracle that he converted three 3rd and 10's in OT. Brady threw three picks in that game. One of which was offset by a player being dumb (Ford). He missed open receivers plenty of times. There has clearly been a huge decline. He can't throw it deep. He also takes unnecessary sacks. 2
Buffalo03 Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 They went 11-5 in 2008 but only beat two teams with a winning record and those teams were only 9-7 Cardinals and then the 11-5 Dolphins (who actually destroyed the Patriots in New England). The Cardinals game was a late season blizzard in New England. The Dolphins who made the playoffs but weren't a very good team themselves coming off a 1-15 season the year before. They won 8 of 11 games against teams with losing records and another against the Jets who went 9-7 but missed the playoffs as well. 4 of those games against teams with losing records went 5-11 or worse. The teams they beat were a combined 71-105. Ironically, out of Their 5 losses, 4 of them came against teams with winning records and 3 of those losses were a 38-13 loss in New England to the Dolphins, a 30-10 loss to the Chargers and a 33-10 loss to the Steelers. Their record against teams they lost to were 52-28 I hate how people talk about how Belichick went 11-5 without Brady. They had an extremely easy schedule and lost to really good teams. Three of those teams they got destroyed by. So how good were they really? 1
reddogblitz Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Buffalo03 said: They went 11-5 in 2008 but only beat two teams with a winning record and those teams were only 9-7 Cardinals and then the 11-5 Dolphins (who actually destroyed the Patriots in New England). The Cardinals game was a late season blizzard in New England. The Dolphins who made the playoffs but weren't a very good team themselves coming off a 1-15 season the year before. They won 8 of 11 games against teams with losing records and another against the Jets who went 9-7 but missed the playoffs as well. 4 of those games against teams with losing records went 5-11 or worse. The teams they beat were a combined 71-105. Ironically, out of Their 5 losses, 4 of them came against teams with winning records and 3 of those losses were a 38-13 loss in New England to the Dolphins, a 30-10 loss to the Chargers and a 33-10 loss to the Steelers. Their record against teams they lost to were 52-28 I hate how people talk about how Belichick went 11-5 without Brady. They had an extremely easy schedule and lost to really good teams. Three of those teams they got destroyed by. So how good were they really? You are what your record says you are. You can only play the teams that are on your schedule. Every year is different. Edited February 1, 2019 by reddogblitz
iinii Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 22 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Sure, Belichick can coach as long as he wants. And he'll do really well. But without Brady they wouldn't be close to the juggernaut they've been. Belichick without Brady will produce a fine team. Not a dynasty. And while Brady has lost a little something from his arm strength, saying that he "can no longer throw the ball in the air over 20 yards with any real chance of success," goes beyond serious exaggeration into being just wrong. You do know he had a 28 yard TD throw last week, right, a catch that was caught six yards deep so it actually went 34 air yards beyond the LOS? You know that right, and that it was a pinpoint pass, right? And that that beautiful back shoulder ball to Gronk at the 9 with a minute left in the game was a 20 yard pass? You say Brady is one of the most physically limited players in the NFL? Yeah, maybe. But it's been true his whole career and he's probably the GOAT despite that. It's both Brady and Belichick but if you had to pick one, it's more Brady. Brady goes to any other team, he doesn’t have near the career or GOAT status. On the other hand Belichick without Brady still has a substantial legacy. I take Belichick over Brady every time, because Belichick can scheme for and beat Brady.
Thurman#1 Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, iinii said: Brady goes to any other team, he doesn’t have near the career or GOAT status. On the other hand Belichick without Brady still has a substantial legacy. I take Belichick over Brady every time, because Belichick can scheme for and beat Brady. He doesn't? Not even near it? Yeah, he does. And while Belichick does a hell of a job scheming for other QBs, the way he beats them ultimately is that his Brady-powered offense outscores them. We saw for five years in Cleveland what Belichick looked like without Brady. And yeah, there certainly was more to it than that, but the major problem he had there was a lack of a franchise QB. Each would have been worse without the other. Brady was more of the reason they won SBs. If Belichick sticks around after Tommy Boy retires, I think you see a team that is almost always well above average but that the dynasty is over. Edited February 1, 2019 by Thurman#1
mannc Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 21 hours ago, papazoid said: NE without brady assumes only trash backups at the position come next. they likely would have drafted or signed a different top QB....joey garrapolo, etc.... Brady is slightly better than manning, brees, etc.... In 2018 brady rated 12th in passer rating and 6th in total QBR. the gap between Belichick and the next best HC is cavernous. they need each other, but belichick's talents are more rare. salary cap management, trading away stars before huge contracts for more team controlled draft picks, discilpline, game plans, the patriot way. I’m starting to believe Belichick is going to coach for at least a few years after Brady retires, and that the Pats probably won’t miss a beat. The gap between between Belichick and the Sean McDermotts of the league was never clearer than this year. And I have no doubt that Brady will be replaced with a very good NFL QB, not some scrub. 9 hours ago, Buffalo03 said: They went 11-5 in 2008 but only beat two teams with a winning record and those teams were only 9-7 Cardinals and then the 11-5 Dolphins (who actually destroyed the Patriots in New England). The Cardinals game was a late season blizzard in New England. The Dolphins who made the playoffs but weren't a very good team themselves coming off a 1-15 season the year before. They won 8 of 11 games against teams with losing records and another against the Jets who went 9-7 but missed the playoffs as well. 4 of those games against teams with losing records went 5-11 or worse. The teams they beat were a combined 71-105. Ironically, out of Their 5 losses, 4 of them came against teams with winning records and 3 of those losses were a 38-13 loss in New England to the Dolphins, a 30-10 loss to the Chargers and a 33-10 loss to the Steelers. Their record against teams they lost to were 52-28 I hate how people talk about how Belichick went 11-5 without Brady. They had an extremely easy schedule and lost to really good teams. Three of those teams they got destroyed by. So how good were they really? Weak. They went 11-5 against NFL teams. And that was their worst year since 2000!
vincec Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 19 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: Yea but he squeezed 11 wins out of an awful Matt Cassel. He should get in the HOF for that alone. True. But that was the team that went 16-0 the season before so he had some other talent to work with.
jahbonas Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 Look at the other top QB's - Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Andrew Luck , Russel Wilson - all went multiple years without making the playoffs often due to cap hell - Belichek makes sure the Pats year after year dont get into cap hell Of course Belichek is better with Brady than without - but Belicheck has designed this entire team both offensively and defensively Brady - plays QB in a great system - has zero to do with anything on the defense Belicheck - designed the defense and the game plans -designed the offense and the game plans - head coach - manages the salary cap -makes all trades - makes all drafts
Another Fan Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 If it was any consolation in the two annual losses to the Patriots this year the defense contained Brady. Bill B dating back to Super Bowl 25 is the bane of this franchises existence
Buffalo Junction Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 17 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I'd suggest you edit your post and delete "Probably." No other pair is close. Shula and Marino might be second, but they never did the things that B and B are doing. The closest comparison success-wise is Lombardi and Starr. However, the modern NFL and 60’s NFL aren’t comparable. The one true commonality is a dedication to discipline and perfection; mistake free football from the full roster. We often underrate BB’s ability to get a modern roster to buy in to that brand of football every year. Tactical brilliance aside, that alone makes him rather unique. Simply put, BB is the greatest modern era coach. Previous eras aren’t comparable because it’s almost a different sport.
Cripple Creek Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 On 1/31/2019 at 1:39 AM, Estelle Getty said: The great debate of who has been more responsible for the *pats success was answered this season. Look the Cheifs game, Bellichick was working with one of the most physically limited players in the NFL in Brady and he game planned for his only 2 strengths he has left accuracy and awareness. Brady can no longer throw the ball in the air over 20 yards with any real chance of success. Even that heave into the endzone was just him floating it up and wishing for the best. Brady has less than 8 games left as a formidable NFL QB. Bellichick has shown he can coach as long as he wants. You never cease to entertain Estelle. You're bug nuts crazy, but entertaining.
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