Delay's Hypocricy Sickens Me

[MadBuffaloDisease]

It is quite different.  In once case the individual is (presumably) medically dead.  In the other (TS), there is some doubt as to her conciousness.  There is some doubt as to whether she can feel sensations such as hunger and pain.  There is some doubt as to the cause of her condition.  And yes, even some doubt as to whether she can recover.

Terri Schiavo is "presumably" medically dead as well and is "basically a vegetable," much like Tom DeLay's father was. She has been examined by countless physicians and had a CT scan that showed she has no cerebral cortex. I have taken biology courses and I understand that without a cerebral cortex, a person doesn't "feel" pain or experience consciousness. What you are seeing in her is purely brainstem function, i.e. breathing, eye opening, tracking, yawning, tearing, guttural noises, etc., as well as lower functions like withdrawing from pain, which is a reflex at the level of the spinal cord. The family would have you believe with their propagandized 4 minute video (taken from scores of hours of video) that she's reponding to people, but she's not. And there's little doubt that she WON'T recover, given she's shown no improvement in 15 years.

This is an in-humane way to kill a human being.  This is not your typical coma.  This is not your typical person on a ventilator or dyalisis machine.  This is a person who very well may be concious.  At least thats what some doctors are saying.  I am not a medical professional, and I suspect neither are you.  When there is doubt we should err on the conservative side.  This is an outrage this can happen in our country.

Frankly I think it's more inhumane to keep someone in such a state than to let them "live" just because you think they might be conscious or because you think any "life," not matter how pathetic, is worth holding-onto. Well if she IS conscious, she's probably living in hell because virtually NO ONE would want to be like that, and I believe her husband when he said that she told him that. And last of all, there are ways to make her comfortable while she's dying, like morphine and sedatives.

[JimBob2232]

Terri Schiavo is "presumably" medically dead as well and is "basically a vegetable," much like Tom DeLay's father was. She has been examined by countless physicians and had a CT scan that showed she has no cerebral cortex. I have taken biology courses and I understand that without a cerebral cortex, a person doesn't "feel" pain or experience consciousness. What you are seeing in her is purely brainstem function, i.e. breathing, eye opening, tracking, yawning, tearing, guttural noises, etc., as well as lower functions like withdrawing from pain, which is a reflex at the level of the spinal cord. The family would have you believe with their propagandized 4 minute video (taken from scores of hours of video) that she's reponding to people, but she's not. And there's little doubt that she WON'T recover, given she's shown no improvement in 15 years.

 

A Couple bio courses does not make you a medical doctor. And even if you are, I am positive you have not medically examined her.

 

Here is a signed affidavit from someone who has.

http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf

 

As long as there is doubt, she should live. I have no problem with removing a respirator, or other means of quick death from someone who is in a persistive vegitiative state. But someone who may not be in that state needs to have full protection under the law.

 

Read that affidavit. Dont discard it. Because if you choose to ignore his opinion, any doctors opinion can be thrown out, and thus your point is also invalid.

 

I work in the nuclear power industry. We have a saying that goes something like this "when in doubt, take the most conservative action". This should apply not only in nuclear power, but also in matters of life or death.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Lemmie see here: Bush, Delay radical right gun loving politics on this board are cause for celebration here.

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If you think Bush and DeLay are on the radical right, wait till you get a load of me. I'm just to the right of Ghengis Khan.

[BravinSeattle]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/...ain682674.shtml

Catholics and protestants (who you are likely refering to as the "religious right") are AGAINST reinserting the tube. 

 

Explain that one...

 

The problems here are 2 fold.

1) It is In-humane to starve someone to death.

2) There are serious questions regarding terris medical situation.

 

And before you say she cant feel anything, explain to me why they have placed her on one of the strongest pain medications known to man, morphine?

 

When you are unsure of something, you have to err on the side of caution.  And in this case it means letting her live.  Let this serve as a lesson to all.  Make a living will.

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And EVANGELICALS are against it as well.

[BravinSeattle]

Delay was one of the architechs of the blatently unconstitutional congressional intervention in the Schiavo affair. Delay and the republican leadership saw that there was right-wing fundementalist christian morals to pander to. Yet, Delay, when faced with the exact same decision in his personal life, did not fight to keep his own father alive as he fought to keep Ms. Shiavo alive.

 

What is more important to Delay - life or votes?

 

Delay's Real Life Decision

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I think Americans are realizing how insane the relgious right truly has become.

 

<img src=http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101050404/poll/2.html>

[KRC]

Also, I don't see how this can possibly be about votes when most Americans seem to be against the movement to keep her alive (though there really isn't enough information out there for anyone to feel too strongly either way, and certainly a lot of misinformation available).

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You forget. It is just a massive conspiracy by the fanatical religious-right neo-cons. They purposely either avoided participation in the polls or purposely said that they disagreed with Congress' position on this case. This was done to lull the rest of the public into a false sense of security. They will then blindside everyone by massively coming out on election day and shocking the world with how they have taken control of the country.

 

All part of the master plan.

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

[MadBuffaloDisease]

A Couple bio courses does not make you a medical doctor.  And even if you are, I am positive you have not medically examined her.

 

Here is a signed affidavit from someone who has.

http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf

 

As long as there is doubt, she should live.  I have no problem with removing a respirator, or other means of quick death from someone who is in a persistive vegitiative state.  But someone who may not be in that state needs to have full protection under the law.

 

Read that affidavit.  Dont discard it.  Because if you choose to ignore his opinion, any doctors opinion can be thrown out, and thus your point is also invalid.

 

I work in the nuclear power industry.  We have a saying that goes something like this "when in doubt, take the most conservative action".  This should apply not only in nuclear power, but also in matters of life or death.

Everyone involved in this case has an agenda to push. I could care less what anyone says, even if in affadavit form, because of this. What I care about is Terri's wishes and I don't believe she wanted to live like this. I look at her history of bulimia, a dangerous practice which eventually ended up destroying her life, as an indicator that she was self-conscious about her appearance and wouldn't have wanted to be in this state. I also look at her CT scan which shows almost total atrophy of her cerebral cortex. And last I look at the court's decision (i.e. the law), having been culled from numerous reports, which is about the best I can get out of what people say, which again as I said is subject to agenda-pushing. So given all the above, I don't see this as any different that what Tom DeLay did to his father.

[Whiskey Dick]

If you think Bush and DeLay are on the radical right, wait till you get a load of me. I'm just to the right of Ghengis Khan.

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That's fine Joe. I look for honesty and conviction before anyone rehashes ideas they got two seconds before they posted on some far-flung site

[JimBob2232]

Everyone involved in this case has an agenda to push.

Agenda? What agenda does Jessie Jackson have? What agenda do Terris parents have? What agenda do I have?

 

What I care about is Terri's wishes and I don't believe she wanted to live like this.

You dont BELIEVE she wanted to live like this...do you KNOW this as fact?

 

I look at her history of bulimia, a dangerous practice which eventually ended up destroying her life, as an indicator that she was self-conscious about her appearance and wouldn't have wanted to be in this state.

 

So...I'm fat. Therefore I dont care about my personal appearance and in the same situation would want to be on life support. Is that what you're saying? This makes no sense to me.

 

I also look at her CT scan which shows almost total atrophy of her cerebral cortex.

Are you a medical doctor who is qualified to make these kinds of determinations?

 

The bottom line here is that THERE IS SIGNIFIGANT DOUBT here. And where there is doubt we should take the time to go through a complete review of the facts, and she should live while doing so. But HOWEVER it turns out, starving her to death is in-humane. Especially once they admitted to giving her morphine for pain.

[slothrop]

It is absolutely not the "exact same situation" because Terri Shiavo doesn't need dialysis or any help breathing.  She only needs food and water.

 

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OK, it is a similar situation and Delay still looks like the scum that he is. This is the guy that the Ethics Committee had to change the rules for in order to save his seat.

 

That aside, my family was placed in a very similar situation with my younger brother. He was a 26 year-old teacher who had non-hodgkins lymphoma. After a mind-boggling painful battle he developed neutopenic (sp? lack of white blood cells) infection that was eating his flesh. We were given a choice, either my brothers whole right side of his body would be aputated/debrided with the promise of regular debridements until he would eventually die a very painful death - or to allow the infection to take its course and allow him to die in the peace of a medically induced coma.

 

The second aniversary of his death was March 23, right in the middle of all this Shaivo mess. My mother is now on the verge of a breakdown because of the memories this stituation has brought up and the light it casts on it. Nobody can convince me that we did not have the right to make the decision of mercy that we made. It was our family andmy brother. F-them!

[Boatdrinks]

Boat, I think you and I agree on something finally. Oh, that and Buffet music...

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Hey Cap, glad to see we hit some common ground. Heck, who needs all this political pap anyway? Give me some Buffett, a beach chair and the BVI and all is right with the world! Oh, yeah. Can't forget a cold Pina Colada and a Cuban. Man, we just got back two weeks ago and I'm already missing the Islands.

[Boatdrinks]

Weren't you the guy railing against all those negative union stereotypes one thread over?

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Yeah, that was me. My point is Unions aren't all bad. There are those who try to abuse them, but the vast majority just want a voice. I'm a Union member and don't believe I'm the antichrist. What is perfect in this world anyway? It's just better than having no clout at all. Everything in our contract was willingly negotiated. Oh yeah, and we cannot strike. Just a means of fair negotiation.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Agenda?  What agenda does Jessie Jackson have?  What agenda do Terris parents have?  What agenda do I have?

I wasn't talking about you. I'm talking about people who have gotten media attention from this case. And if if you think the other 2 parties you mentioned do NOT have an agenda (in the family's case, the "agenda" is to keep their loved one "alive" no matter what), you're seriously fooling yourself.

You dont BELIEVE she wanted to live like this...do you KNOW this as fact?

So...I'm fat.  Therefore I dont care about my personal appearance and in the same situation would want to be on life support.  Is that what you're saying?  This makes no sense to me.

I don't know what you would want. Terri Schiavo OTOH cared about her appearance AND, according to her husband, said she didn't want to live like this. No one from her family has said that she wanted to live at any cost, just that they think that she SHOULD be kept alive. But since you brought it up, would YOU like to "live" the way she is?

Are you a medical doctor who is qualified to make these kinds of determinations?

Uh, many medical doctors HAVE made those determinations, and a court upheld them. I was merely pointing out objective evidence to show that she's "practically a vegetable."

The bottom line here is that THERE IS SIGNIFIGANT DOUBT here.  And where there is doubt we should take the time to go through a complete review of the facts, and she should live while doing so.  But HOWEVER it turns out, starving her to death is in-humane.  Especially once they admitted to giving her morphine for pain.

There has been 15 years of time to review the facts. Her husband has been trying to get the feeding tube removed for 3 years. Time has run-out in trying to prolong what most doctors and the court agree is PVS and Terri's wishes. I feel sorry for the family because they are the only ones I know that truly love her, but they aren't being rational and looking out for Terri's best interests.

[Adam]

Because they are. They accept as fact a gathering of parables written by some old men thousands of years ago when all sorts of untruths were accepted as fact. Sound a little silly to you? Then to make matters worse, they want to control everyone else who may just think their "beliefs" are just a tad outdated and oppressive. So excuse me if I use someone's behavior as an indication of their simple mindedness. I can't describe as "smart" someone who thinks everyone else must subscribe to their religion. 

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Are you describing people on the right, left, or both?

[Alaska Darin]

Are you describing people on the right, left, or both?

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Well obviously the only religious wackos are on the right.

[Adam]

It is absolutely not the "exact same situation" because Terri Shiavo doesn't need dialysis or any help breathing.  She only needs food and water.

 

Also, I don't see how this can possibly be about votes when most Americans seem to be against the movement to keep her alive (though there really isn't enough information out there for anyone to feel too strongly either way, and certainly a lot of misinformation available).

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No, not the majority of Americans, just the small demographic that believes that being the most vocal will put you in the majority

[Boatdrinks]

Are you describing people on the right, left, or both?

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Well, it's been my experience that most of these people fall to the right, but I'm sure there are some on the left as well. It's not exactly a right left issue. I feel the same about that attitiude when it's held by anyone. I tend to be liberal on social issues but conservative when it comes to things like taxes and social programs.