4merper4mer Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Lol, Perhaps. Semantics aside, its happening. Everyone knows it. Yup. Just like everyone knows the Russians did it. The law passed in NY and the vile celebration that ensued, were a result of nothing other than an utter disregard by politicians for human life. 4 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Illinois just voted to reverse their ban on partial-birth abortions. This is intolerable barbarism for the purpose of gaslighting. Illinois just said: “***** you. We’ll murder babies in the most brutal way imaginable.” They are just reacting to something that hasn't happened.
Boatdrinks Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: Yup. Just like everyone knows the Russians did it. The law passed in NY and the vile celebration that ensued, were a result of nothing other than an utter disregard by politicians for human life. The Russians did what ? Not sure about you, but I don’t think Russia had any impact on our Presidential election. That aside, I think most people know some sort of showdown on abortion is happening soon. Both sides are digging in. I’m not in favor of the NY law and think things should have remained status quo. I still see it as Political posturing gone mad. I didn’t see the celebration and don’t care to. As stated , I think both sides wingnuts suck. Edited June 2, 2019 by Boatdrinks
Koko78 Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 40 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: Yup. Just like everyone knows the Russians did it. We all know that Trump is a Russian agent; we all know that he obstructed justice;w e all know that Obamacare saved or created 248,000,000 jobs, we all know that the GOP has nothing else to do but overturn Roe v. Wade, we all know that Democrats are the smarterest people ever! Since we all know it, we clearly don't need proof.
/dev/null Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Koko78 said: We all know that Trump is a Russian agent; we all know that he obstructed justice;w e all know that Obamacare saved or created 248,000,000 jobs, we all know that the GOP has nothing else to do but overturn Roe v. Wade, we all know that Democrats are the smarterest people ever! Since we all know it, we clearly don't need proof. Consensus!
3rdnlng Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 9 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said: I’m against murdering people. I don’t care how inconvenient those people are. So, we are back to the question that is at the heart of the conundrum here: At what point in time in the pregnancy does an abortion become murder? Some say conception while some believe up to birth. Most people are somewhere in between those two extremes. While it is not for me, I find that forcing my beliefs on others is also in itself against my beliefs. It is an issue that has no ready answer and for all practical purposes needs a compromise. Neither end of the spectrum is going to win this outright. A compromise is needed just to get back to an uneasy truce.
SoCal Deek Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, 3rdnlng said: So, we are back to the question that is at the heart of the conundrum here: At what point in time in the pregnancy does an abortion become murder? Some say conception while some believe up to birth. Most people are somewhere in between those two extremes. While it is not for me, I find that forcing my beliefs on others is also in itself against my beliefs. It is an issue that has no ready answer and for all practical purposes needs a compromise. Neither end of the spectrum is going to win this outright. A compromise is needed just to get back to an uneasy truce. I wouldn’t get hung up on the ‘murder’ label. It’s clear that abortion isn’t like lancing a boil, and everyone knows it. Scientific advancement in ultrasound and the ability to lower the age of viability have bent the curve of this topic over the last 30 years. Having just had my first grandchild this year, and having watched him develop from the first ultrasound photos it’s undeniable how uncomfortable this topic is for the Left. Keep distracting and calling it a ‘women’s health’ issue! That’s the ticket.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 10 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: The status quo is the compromise position. While the Dems actions are nonsense, it’s still a reaction to the attack from the other side. You can’t negotiate down from the status quo. So they went crazy off the deep end in the other direction. Just my opinion though. I'm not looking to argue with you, but imo you seem to be normalizing the abhorrent. I get your perspective on the extremism of right and left wing politics, and on many other issues we would probably agree. However, the dynamic here is that the right wing view is "Give every child a chance at life" while the liberal side is "a person has a right to terminate the life of a human being up to and including as that child enters the world, and perhaps for a period of time thereafter." That constitutes political posturing and digging in for a fight? To to draw a parallel, would it be acceptable for the border security crowd to suggest "Shoot on sight" as a starting point to negotiate with the open borders crowd, and wash the White House in pink to celebrate? This is isn't a negotiating tactic on the left, they are literally telling you who they are. 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, 3rdnlng said: So, we are back to the question that is at the heart of the conundrum here: At what point in time in the pregnancy does an abortion become murder? Some say conception while some believe up to birth. Most people are somewhere in between those two extremes. While it is not for me, I find that forcing my beliefs on others is also in itself against my beliefs. It is an issue that has no ready answer and for all practical purposes needs a compromise. Neither end of the spectrum is going to win this outright. A compromise is needed just to get back to an uneasy truce. Don't we always, as a collective, force our beliefs on someone else?
3rdnlng Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 50 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Don't we always, as a collective, force our beliefs on someone else? As a society there are many things we are in general agreement with and those agreements are the basis for our laws. Abortion is an exception to those items we agree on. A large segment of our population has taken a position on the extremes. There will never be a compromise that will please the extremes. The issue of abortion is so polarizing that all we can hope for is an uneasy truce somewhere in the middle. A pregnancy is basically 270 days broken up into 3 trimesters of 90 days. Somewhere between 1 and 270 days an abortion is murder. We as a society can determine that standard for us by compromising and making a law that determines when abortion becomes murder. That covers us here on earth. What it doesn't cover is individual consciences and future judgement of our actions.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: As a society there are many things we are in general agreement with and those agreements are the basis for our laws. Abortion is an exception to those items we agree on. A large segment of our population has taken a position on the extremes. There will never be a compromise that will please the extremes. The issue of abortion is so polarizing that all we can hope for is an uneasy truce somewhere in the middle. A pregnancy is basically 270 days broken up into 3 trimesters of 90 days. Somewhere between 1 and 270 days an abortion is murder. We as a society can determine that standard for us by compromising and making a law that determines when abortion becomes murder. That covers us here on earth. What it doesn't cover is individual consciences and future judgement of our actions. I guess I don't see it as an exception, and feel I have as much right to an opinion as anyone else. I think we allow it to be treated as an exception, which in and of itself is a problem. On this issue, I have been educated. I used to tell my children that at some point in a pregnancy, almost everybody is pro-life and comfortable suggesting the termination of a pregnancy would be horrific. I was wrong.
Boatdrinks Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 5 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I'm not looking to argue with you, but imo you seem to be normalizing the abhorrent. I get your perspective on the extremism of right and left wing politics, and on many other issues we would probably agree. However, the dynamic here is that the right wing view is "Give every child a chance at life" while the liberal side is "a person has a right to terminate the life of a human being up to and including as that child enters the world, and perhaps for a period of time thereafter." That constitutes political posturing and digging in for a fight? To to draw a parallel, would it be acceptable for the border security crowd to suggest "Shoot on sight" as a starting point to negotiate with the open borders crowd, and wash the White House in pink to celebrate? This is isn't a negotiating tactic on the left, they are literally telling you who they are. Fair enough. I’m not trying to normalize it, as it’s an extreme and unsupportable position. An outrageous overreaction to a perceived threat ? I don’t know, but I don’t think many ( if any) would actually have this procedure at that stage. Perhaps they are telling who they are. I’m certain they wouldn’t want to negotiate down from the previous status quo, therefore my reasons for the hunch. Obviously your parallel is unsupportable as well. Either way, I don’t support the measure, I don’t like Cuomo and I voted for Trump in 2016 fwiw. I still don’t like ultra right religious conservatives.
3rdnlng Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Fair enough. I’m not trying to normalize it, as it’s an extreme and unsupportable position. An outrageous overreaction to a perceived threat ? I don’t know, but I don’t think many ( if any) would actually have this procedure at that stage. Perhaps they are telling who they are. I’m certain they wouldn’t want to negotiate down from the previous status quo, therefore my reasons for the hunch. Obviously your parallel is unsupportable as well. Either way, I don’t support the measure, I don’t like Cuomo and I voted for Trump in 2016 fwiw. I still don’t like ultra right religious conservatives. I am a person that you would consider on the right. I describe myself as a Conservative and don't like abortion mainly for decency reasons. I would think this way if I was a Christian or an Atheist. I also realize that levels of decency are subjective and laws are created usually as a compromise between divergent opinions. I sincerely suggest that you might want to dig into this issue a little more and avail yourself of the information that's out there regarding how far the Left is willing to go. They are actually promoting infanticide.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Fair enough. I’m not trying to normalize it, as it’s an extreme and unsupportable position. An outrageous overreaction to a perceived threat ? I don’t know, but I don’t think many ( if any) would actually have this procedure at that stage. Perhaps they are telling who they are. I’m certain they wouldn’t want to negotiate down from the previous status quo, therefore my reasons for the hunch. Obviously your parallel is unsupportable as well. Either way, I don’t support the measure, I don’t like Cuomo and I voted for Trump in 2016 fwiw. I still don’t like ultra right religious conservatives. At the risk of hounding you on this issue, people are crazy. They kill other people, it happens everyday. If there is an option to terminate a pregnancy as the child is being born, people will do it, doctors will perform the procedure and off they go. Not all people, not most people...but then again all/most people don't kill other people but we still have laws that address those that do. i understand the feelings on religious extremists, but in this case, they choose life, while the other crazies are pretty much demanding death on demand AND taxpayer funding to carry it out. Good call on cuomo--we agree there. Have a good day.
Doc Brown Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 5 hours ago, 3rdnlng said: As a society there are many things we are in general agreement with and those agreements are the basis for our laws. Abortion is an exception to those items we agree on. A large segment of our population has taken a position on the extremes. There will never be a compromise that will please the extremes. The issue of abortion is so polarizing that all we can hope for is an uneasy truce somewhere in the middle. A pregnancy is basically 270 days broken up into 3 trimesters of 90 days. Somewhere between 1 and 270 days an abortion is murder. We as a society can determine that standard for us by compromising and making a law that determines when abortion becomes murder. That covers us here on earth. What it doesn't cover is individual consciences and future judgement of our actions. It's interesting looking the gallup historical tracking poll in that although the majority of Americans feel there should be a compromise like you suggest, there are now more "extremists" on the left than right. I like the viability argument because once a fetus can likely survive outside the womb it should be given the same protections as any other individual of the state. With medical advances I think 20 weeks (140 days) is a fair compromise.
Boatdrinks Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: I am a person that you would consider on the right. I describe myself as a Conservative and don't like abortion mainly for decency reasons. I would think this way if I was a Christian or an Atheist. I also realize that levels of decency are subjective and laws are created usually as a compromise between divergent opinions. I sincerely suggest that you might want to dig into this issue a little more and avail yourself of the information that's out there regarding how far the Left is willing to go. They are actually promoting infanticide. I consider my overall views to be on the libertarian side and am an atheist. I think abortion should remain legal, with restrictions. Not the new deep south restrictions though. Essentially the previous status quo. I confess I am not going to dig further into the issue, as my overall position will not change. I haven’t read what’s in the NY law and probably won’t. I don’t support it , as it is far too extreme. I don’t support the far left on many things, and this is no exception. It appears to be simply a huge F U to the extreme right , but just maybe I’m naive and some folks actually think this change is somehow desirable ? Again , it looks like the work of some extremists that I don’t support anyway so I don’t need to know any more about them. I don’t vote for them anyway.
Boatdrinks Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: It's interesting looking the gallup historical tracking poll in that although the majority of Americans feel there should be a compromise like you suggest, there are now more "extremists" on the left than right. I like the viability argument because once a fetus can likely survive outside the womb it should be given the same protections as any other individual of the state. With medical advances I think 20 weeks (140 days) is a fair compromise. The polls don’t surprise me. Lots of whiny upset lefties out there since Trump won the election. Polls are the equivalent of “ online muscles “ in many ways so the responses are predictable. Outrageous responses given out of anger and for shock value. I think your compromise position of 20 is more than fair.
Doc Brown Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: The polls don’t surprise me. Lots of whiny upset lefties out there since Trump won the election. Polls are the equivalent of “ online muscles “ in many ways so the responses are predictable. Outrageous responses given out of anger and for shock value. I think your compromise position of 20 is more than fair. I think it has more to do with the appointment of Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court. You also see in the early 90's is when the pro choice movement was at its highest during the Rehnquist Court and the SC ruling of Casey vs. Planned Parenthood. 1
row_33 Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 On 6/2/2019 at 9:08 AM, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Don't we always, as a collective, force our beliefs on someone else? I would hope people aren't hypocrites on the matter when it really is an issue in their personal lives so if there is no such thing as late-term abortions, why all the effort to ram it through legislation to protect it ?
B-Man Posted June 3, 2019 Posted June 3, 2019 Before I post, I would like to commend the last 40 or so replies. The posters all had important and interesting viewpoints. I only wish most of the threads could be like that. I myself am not good at the back and forth required, so I will post a NYT article a a response to it. When We Talk About Abortion, Let’s Talk About Men https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/02/opinion/abortion-laws-men.html Quote Alexandra DeSanctisVerified account @xan_desanctis 2h2 hours ago “If a fetus is a child, then John is a parent,” says this @nytimes op-ed. The authors also would like men to take responsibility for “unwanted pregnancies.” I think they finally might be beginning to catch on. Accidentally. I think. Having both women and men responsible after conception is a very pro-life idea. My body, my choice is not. so (accidental) kudos to the Times 2
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