The GAME when you knew the Bills HC wasn't the guy!

[Mr. WEO]

Senior Bowl, 2013.  

 

Marrone never should have watched that game.  But he did and that was it...he had to go.

[keepthefaith]

For me it wasn't a particular game.  It was when Rex was hired and Schwartz was broomed.  Even the casual fan could see how good the Bills' Defense had been that past year and how often do we see new coaching regimes come in around the league only to have one side is the of the ball that had been good become bad?  That is then followed by the team burning up half of their draft and FA capital on "rebuilding" what was already good with players that better fit the new "system".  Terrible decision by Pegula's to hire Rex.  Schwartz should have been made HC or given a big fat raise to stay on as DC and an offensive minded coach should heave been hired.  The Bears this past season did it right and in a way that few teams do, keeping Fangio and bringing in Nagy. 

 

It's all in the rear view mirror now and the Bills seem to be in pretty good GM and coaching hands, but years were lost. 

[Gunsgoodtime]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

He has consistently demonstrated that, to my satisfaction at least.

 

Where I think he excels is in the motivation department.  I don't recall the team coming out flat and playing unenthusiastic football; that is a big part of an NFL coach's job and McD does that pretty well I think.

 

But that aspect of coaching only takes you so far.

 

 

We have had more blowouts the last 2 years than I can ever remember

[Nihilarian]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

Terrific post. What you are saying is so logical and basic. When you put your most valuable asset (qb) in peril you are wasting his value. 

 

Last year, it was unexpected that Woods was not going to play because of a health issue. I'm not sure why this regime put the financial squeeze on Incognito when we could have handled his original contract for another year. There may be more to the Incognito saga that we are not privy to. So I'll give the organization a pass. But entering next season the glaring deficiencies are well known. There is plenty of talk coming out of their building that the braintrust knows what it needs to do on offense. Let's hope that it gets done. 

Thanks. It's honestly great to read that another poster that shares the same outlook on the offensive line.

 

I've always found it to be perplexing to me that the majority of this board and most of the actual NFL world would rather see a top ten pick at defensive tackle, defensive end. But would abhor and even be repulsed by the idea of spending that high a pick on an interior offensive linemen.

 

This really makes very little sense to me because as important as it is to stop the run or get to the QB. The absolute highest priority for the front office should be in protecting the most valuable position on the team, the quarterback. And another priority is being able to move the ball in the run game as teams need to be more then one dimensional. 

 

 

Ex-Bills GM Buddy Nix had a different outlook and had no problem in expending a #3 overall on a DT in the 2011 NFL draft. Later stated that any OT can play OG. In his view all O linemen needed to be a viable resource was be over 6ft tall, 300+ LBs. This mental error showed itself in 2010 when he stated that "you're going to think I'm crazy but we're not that far away". Meaning he though the 2010 Buffalo Bills were a serious contender for the division.

 

Then the 2010 season started with Bills QB hurried, harried and running for their proverbial lives for the first eight games. Trent Edwards lasted two games before being outright cut and Fitz stepped in and ended up with a 6.7 YPC average in running for his life. Things started to settle down on the line after Nix picked Erik Pears, Kraig Urbik off the waiver wire to replace Mansfield Wrotto at RT, Wood at RG. Ex Raider Cornell Green 6'6'' 315lb OT started the season at RT on a 3 year 9 mill contract and he lasted a whole five games before quietly benched and cut. 

 

Needless to say the 2010 Buffalo Bills finished the season 4-12 and Buddy Nix in all his brilliance didn't draft an offensive linemen the next year until round four in OT Chris Hairston. The first pick was that #3 overall DT, then a DB, then a LBer, then another DB. Hairston was the second fourth round pick that year. It was more then clear that the mentality of any warm body filling a spot on the offensive line was good enough to get by with.

 

What gets me is that the #3 overall in 2011 on a DT and the team was still very desperate for a pass rusher and didn't mind paying Mario Williams 100 million in 2012. The 2014 Buffalo Bills had the #4 overall defense and led the league in sacks with 54, the best pass rush in the league...that still wasn't good enough to shut down Tom Brady or beat the Patriots. You need an offense that can, run, pass and score too. 

 

Nix would later on spend a #2 draft pick on an OG in Cordy Glenn to play LT and Glenn managed to do a really good job at that position. Alas, although the Bills had Glenn, Incognito, Woods, a team needs five decent players as a line is only as good as it's weakest link. An example is the 2017 Chargers game as SD DE Joey Bosa stated that the Bills RT never touched him as he constantly harassed Bills QBs all game.

 

Marv Levy is a great HC and in the HoF...a not so good GM. Tom Donahoe stuck as a Bills GM. Buddy Nix stunk as a Bills GM. Doug Whaley stunk as a Bills GM. The question now is how will Brandon Beane do going forward now that he has his franchise QB? 

[MJS]

On 1/19/2019 at 10:29 PM, HomeskillitMoorman said:

When McDermott basically tried to play for a tie against the Colts last season in the snow game, and punted on 4th and 1 from the Colts 40 in OT, and then essentially admitted after the game that he didn't know the implications of what a tie would've done to their playoff chances. 

 

And then goes on to get his team into the playoffs with a team devoid of talent, a QB who can't pass the ball, in the first year of a rebuild, breaking the longest playoff drought in professional sports.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Nice way to spin your dislike of McDermott.

 

 

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Thanks. It's honestly great to read that another poster that shares the same outlook on the offensive line.

 

I've always found it to be perplexing to me that the majority of this board and most of the actual NFL world would rather see a top ten pick at defensive tackle, defensive end. But would abhor and even be repulsed by the idea of spending that high a pick on an interior offensive linemen.

 

This really makes very little sense to me because as important as it is to stop the run or get to the QB. The absolute highest priority for the front office should be in protecting the most valuable position on the team, the quarterback. And another priority is being able to move the ball in the run game as teams need to be more then one dimensional. 

 

 

Ex-Bills GM Buddy Nix had a different outlook and had no problem in expending a #3 overall on a DT in the 2011 NFL draft. Later stated that any OT can play OG. In his view all O linemen needed to be a viable resource was be over 6ft tall, 300+ LBs. This mental error showed itself in 2010 when he stated that "you're going to think I'm crazy but we're not that far away". Meaning he though the 2010 Buffalo Bills were a serious contender for the division.

 

Then the 2010 season started with Bills QB hurried, harried and running for their proverbial lives for the first eight games. Trent Edwards lasted two games before being outright cut and Fitz stepped in and ended up with a 6.7 YPC average in running for his life. Things started to settle down on the line after Nix picked Erik Pears, Kraig Urbik off the waiver wire to replace Mansfield Wrotto at RT, Wood at RG. Ex Raider Cornell Green 6'6'' 315lb OT started the season at RT on a 3 year 9 mill contract and he lasted a whole five games before quietly benched and cut. 

 

Needless to say the 2010 Buffalo Bills finished the season 4-12 and Buddy Nix in all his brilliance didn't draft an offensive linemen the next year until round four in OT Chris Hairston. The first pick was that #3 overall DT, then a DB, then a LBer, then another DB. Hairston was the second fourth round pick that year. It was more then clear that the mentality of any warm body filling a spot on the offensive line was good enough to get by with.

 

What gets me is that the #3 overall in 2011 on a DT and the team was still very desperate for a pass rusher and didn't mind paying Mario Williams 100 million in 2012. The 2014 Buffalo Bills had the #4 overall defense and led the league in sacks with 54, the best pass rush in the league...that still wasn't good enough to shut down Tom Brady or beat the Patriots. You need an offense that can, run, pass and score too. 

 

Nix would later on spend a #2 draft pick on an OG in Cordy Glenn to play LT and Glenn managed to do a really good job at that position. Alas, although the Bills had Glenn, Incognito, Woods, a team needs five decent players as a line is only as good as it's weakest link. An example is the 2017 Chargers game as SD DE Joey Bosa stated that the Bills RT never touched him as he constantly harassed Bills QBs all game.

 

Marv Levy is a great HC and in the HoF...a not so good GM. Tom Donahoe stuck as a Bills GM. Buddy Nix stunk as a Bills GM. Doug Whaley stunk as a Bills GM. The question now is how will Brandon Beane do going forward now that he has his franchise QB? 

The idea that Marv Levy and Buddy Nix were considered GMs, let alone actually selected as GMs, is a testament to how out of touch the owner was. We were operating with a horse and buggy mentality in a jet and WiFi world. We never stood a chance. And then later on Rex Ryan was selected as a head coach because he had pizazz! This was obscenely stupid!

 

Thankfully, that foolishness and era is behind us. I'm not steadfast as to the best way to acquire linemen. My preference is to use both the draft and free agency to reconstruct the OL. If a good line prospect is available and is ranked a little lower than where we are drafting then I would hope that we would trade down and get an extra pick or two. We have so many needs to address.

 

By building an effective line you not only better protect the qb but you will be able to establish a running game that will also put the qb in a better situation to run an offense.  What is missed by many is that being able to establish a credible running game and garnering first outs you are helping the defense by keeping it off the field for longer spells. That's exactly what happened in the New England/Kansas game. KC was gassed as the end of the game because they were on the field so much. One of the biggest differences in this game against two evenly matched opponents was that the Patriots had a running game to keep Kansas's defense on the field and withering as the game went on.   

 

We have our qb in the fold. And we now have the draft and cap capital. It's got to be a priority; and its got to get done. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

When Marrone wanted call his fast paced offense with EJ, run a conventional O with the backup, go back his fast offense when EJ returned,  repeat for the 2nd injury, then waited to "simplify / dumb it down" until December. 

 

Funny for how bad EJ was .... We got Nate because of it. 

On 1/20/2019 at 2:54 AM, loyal2dagame said:

January 2, 2004. 

Mike Mularkey couldn't coach this team to beat the Steelers 2nd and 3rd stringers to get into the playoffs.

that was a wrap for him with me........

that's a good one too. 

[CLTbills]

On 1/19/2019 at 11:28 PM, reddogblitz said:

I remember it very well.

 

November 17, 2008 - The year we started 5-2.  We still had a chance for playoffs.  Monday Night at The Ralph. Brady Quinn's first start for the Clowns. Trent throws 3 picks in his first 4 possesions.  Bill battle back.  

 

clowns kick FG to go up 29-27 with 1:44 left. Fred returns KO to Bills 44. Trent completes 22 yard pass to Robert Royal putting us on Clowns 34 with 1:03 left. Dick camps out there.3 straight.Beast up the middle runs for a total of 5 yards. Then Lindell misses 47 yarder wide right.

 

I jumped off the Dick bandwagon that night ?.

Glad you jumped off the Dick that night....

 

All joking aside, I remember that game vividly. The only game that I can remember leaving the Ralph feeling more deflated was the MNF game in October '07 against the Cowboys.

 

Mine was October, 2007. MNF at home against Romo and the Cowboys. If I remember correctly, it was the first MNF game at the Ralph in something like 14 years. Place was rockin'. Bryan Scott started the game off with a pick six. We picked off Romo 5 times that night, and also got a fumble from him as well. But we had literally ZERO offense. Even had Terrance McGee return the 3rd quarter kickoff for a touchdown. Mind you, the Bills were junk and the Cowgirls were the favorites to win the NFC at the time. 

 

Girls scored late to get within 2, and went for the 2 point conversion, and Jabari Greer made a hell of a play on TO to take it away. Cowgirls RECOVER the onside kick, and go down and kick a 50-something yarder to win it at the buzzer.

 

Screw you, Dick Jauron.

Edited January 21, 2019 by CLTbills

[HomeskillitMoorman]

10 hours ago, MJS said:

 

And then goes on to get his team into the playoffs with a team devoid of talent, a QB who can't pass the ball, in the first year of a rebuild, breaking the longest playoff drought in professional sports.

 

I know 9-7 with a 1 and done playoff appearance hits the standard for a lot of people, but that's not ever going to be something that should actually move the needle. And I've never even blamed McDermott for the team's overall record in these 2 seasons. It's a rebuild on a team with holes, it would be unrealistic to expect the world so far. I would've judged him the same exact way if Dalton didn't complete that pass and we didn't make the playoffs, I wouldn't have taken anything away from him for that, just like I don't think that automatically wipes out anything negative about him. 

 

So that being said...how does any of that change how bad he's been at managing games and in that instance, literally not knowing the implications of what the difference in a tie vs a win was for the team's playoff chances? 

[Nextmanup]

3 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I know 9-7 with a 1 and done playoff appearance hits the standard for a lot of people, but that's not ever going to be something that should actually move the needle. And I've never even blamed McDermott for the team's overall record in these 2 seasons. It's a rebuild on a team with holes, it would be unrealistic to expect the world so far. I would've judged him the same exact way if Dalton didn't complete that pass and we didn't make the playoffs, I wouldn't have taken anything away from him for that, just like I don't think that automatically wipes out anything negative about him. 

 

So that being said...how does any of that change how bad he's been at managing games and in that instance, literally not knowing the implications of what the difference in a tie vs a win was for the team's playoff chances? 

Of course it doesn't, but posters like MJS aren't going to worry about that.

 

They are here to say "I support anyone and anything having currently to do with the Bills organization and I will never deviate from that" which of course means they, effectively, say nothing.

 

The weird part is how they then all turn on the same people once they leave the organization.

 

The exact same people who make jokes about Rex, Kiko, Whaley now were staunchly supporting them/cheering for them, while here.  

 

Kiko was a wildly popular Bill on this team; most people were stunned when news broke he was traded and thought the thread announcing it was a joke.  Rex was said to "bring us instant credibility around the league" the day he was hired.  Didn't quite work out that way.

 

Whaley was defended at every turn even as his critics pointed out the ridiculous trade up to get Watkins and the mismanagement of the QB situation should have cost him his job long before he left the organization.  Now people all joke about him and create threads about what he's doing these days, out of the league.

 

It's weird.

 

 

 

[MJS]

37 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I know 9-7 with a 1 and done playoff appearance hits the standard for a lot of people, but that's not ever going to be something that should actually move the needle. And I've never even blamed McDermott for the team's overall record in these 2 seasons. It's a rebuild on a team with holes, it would be unrealistic to expect the world so far. I would've judged him the same exact way if Dalton didn't complete that pass and we didn't make the playoffs, I wouldn't have taken anything away from him for that, just like I don't think that automatically wipes out anything negative about him. 

 

So that being said...how does any of that change how bad he's been at managing games and in that instance, literally not knowing the implications of what the difference in a tie vs a win was for the team's playoff chances? 

 

McDermott hasn't done any worse than any other coach in management of games. Watch literally any game and you will see "coaching blunders". In actuality it is just coaches trying things that fail. Sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

 

We just watched playoff games with "bad" coaching decisions. Sean Peyton mismanaged the clock, giving the Rams too much time left to come back and tie the game. Is he a bad coach? He has a Superbowl ring and history of winning football.

 

Arguably the best coach of all time, Bill Belichick, has made "blunders" too. I remember against the bills a couple seasons ago they were up big, but inexplicably kept passing the ball and going for it on fourth down, letting the Bills with Tyrod Taylor get back into the game. He's made other questionable decisions too. I will admit that he doesn't usually make mistakes, unlike MOST coaches.

 

Andy Reid is netorious for clock management issues, yet most agree he is a great coach.

 

And can you seriously use a comment made to the media as evidence of whether or not a coach is good? If that's the case, Bill Belichick is the worst coach in football. His press conferences are a joke. Nothing these guys say to the media means a thing.

 

And sorry, but getting to the playoffs in your first season is great and does move the needle, especially when the team hasn't been to the playoffs in 17 seasons. That means something, and if you don't think it does you are kidding yourself. You think it doesn't mean anything to the Pegulas?

[Nextmanup]

12 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

McDermott hasn't done any worse than any other coach in management of games. Watch literally any game and you will see "coaching blunders". In actuality it is just coaches trying things that fail. Sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

 

We just watched playoff games with "bad" coaching decisions. Sean Peyton mismanaged the clock, giving the Rams too much time left to come back and tie the game. Is he a bad coach? He has a Superbowl ring and history of winning football.

 

Arguably the best coach of all time, Bill Belichick, has made "blunders" too. I remember against the bills a couple seasons ago they were up big, but inexplicably kept passing the ball and going for it on fourth down, letting the Bills with Tyrod Taylor get back into the game. He's made other questionable decisions too. I will admit that he doesn't usually make mistakes, unlike MOST coaches.

 

Andy Reid is netorious for clock management issues, yet most agree he is a great coach.

 

And can you seriously use a comment made to the media as evidence of whether or not a coach is good? If that's the case, Bill Belichick is the worst coach in football. His press conferences are a joke. Nothing these guys say to the media means a thing.

 

And sorry, but getting to the playoffs in your first season is great and does move the needle, especially when the team hasn't been to the playoffs in 17 seasons. That means something, and if you don't think it does you are kidding yourself. You think it doesn't mean anything to the Pegulas?

The day after the "Snow Game" McDermott was on, as always, with Schopp and Bulldog. I'm sure you don't listen to them because they are idiots.

 

The 2 hosts made it a point to discuss the punt in OT for much of the 4 hour show that day.  During the McDermott segment, Mike Schopp very deliberately questioned him, repeatedly, on the punt.

 

After the segment ended, the 2 of them discussed the conversation with McD for quite some time.  Both reached the conclusion, as did I and many Bills fans I'm sure, that McDermott probably didn't realize a tie was a bad thing in the heat of the moment.

 

He very clearly gave a garden variety answer about wins being better than ties, and ties being better than losses.  In general, that's probably true.

But the point is that on that day, with that set of circumstances, the garden variety approach was not the correct approach.

 

And McD wasn't thinking on that level.  

 

In the same situation, Bill B. is thinking "I can't take a tie here.  I have to get a win.  This was the easiest game on the schedule all year long; I have to get a win here, b/c even if I win my remaining 2 games against Miami, I have to assume I am going to lose against NE, and 8-7-1 isn't going to do it.

 

The fact that we actually got into the playoffs based on a wide variety of circumstances beyond McDermott's control, many involving good luck, is meaningless to this discussion.

 

You understand that, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Nextmanup

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, CLTbills said:

Glad you jumped off the Dick that night....

 

All joking aside, I remember that game vividly. The only game that I can remember leaving the Ralph feeling more deflated was the MNF game in October '07 against the Cowboys.

 

Mine was October, 2007. MNF at home against Romo and the Cowboys. If I remember correctly, it was the first MNF game at the Ralph in something like 14 years. Place was rockin'. Bryan Scott started the game off with a pick six. We picked off Romo 5 times that night, and also got a fumble from him as well. But we had literally ZERO offense. Even had Terrance McGee return the 3rd quarter kickoff for a touchdown. Mind you, the Bills were junk and the Cowgirls were the favorites to win the NFC at the time. 

 

Girls scored late to get within 2, and went for the 2 point conversion, and Jabari Greer made a hell of a play on TO to take it away. Cowgirls RECOVER the onside kick, and go down and kick a 50-something yarder to win it at the buzzer.

 

Screw you, Dick Jauron.

 

Yeah I was at that game too.

 

I think it was George Wilson that got that initial pick six.  I forgave Chris Kelsy for all past and future sins that night by chasing Romo in the EZ and then blocking the pass and catching it for a pick six.  It was a heckuva game.

 

I guess I gave Dick the benefit of the doubt that night, but was not happy.  Especially when the boys had only a few seconds and EVERYONE except Dick and Perry Fewell evidently knew they were going to throw a sidelines pass and they gave it up to TO setting up the long FG.

[Buffalo86]

Ryan - the day he was hired.  Living in nyc, I loved having a front seat to Rex's antics every week.  More than that, I loved having him coach for one of our division rivals.

 

Marrone - the day he quit.  Wasn't a huge fan, but Marrone was light years ahead of the guys who came before him.

 

Gailey - when he announced a pre-season QB competition, then quickly named Captain Checkdown the starter, then cut him after 2 starts.

 

Jauron - the day he was hired.  A mediocre defensive coordinator whose Jaguars became a top 5 defense the minute he left.  As HC, he had 1 winning season in 5 years, along with a 1 & done playoff loss at home.  

 

Mularkey - not beating the Steelers' backups is the easy answer.  However, I respect Mularkey for walking away instead of taking a paycheck when he saw which direction the team was heading (beginning with Marv Levy becoming GM).

 

Williams - I don't remember ever being a fan, but I can't recall a defining moment.

 

Phillips - When he started Johnson over Flutie in the playoffs is the easy answer.  Wade later said that decision came from above, but at the same time, Wade was willing to take a stand 2 years later when the Bills wanted him to replace his failing ST coach.  Way to pick your battles, Wade.  Also, does anyone remember the Monday night football game against the Colts in December of '00?  In an interview before the game between the two 7-6 teams, Wade made a crack that neither team was going to the playoffs.  The Colts won that game, as well as their next two, and did go to the playoffs.  Wade's Bills did not. 

[CLTbills]

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Yeah I was at that game too.

 

I think it was George Wilson that got that initial pick six.  I forgave Chris Kelsy for all past and future sins that night by chasing Romo in the EZ and then blocking the pass and catching it for a pick six.  It was a heckuva game.

 

I guess I gave Dick the benefit of the doubt that night, but was not happy.  Especially when the boys had only a few seconds and EVERYONE except Dick and Perry Fewell evidently knew they were going to throw a sidelines pass and they gave it up to TO setting up the long FG.

You're absolutely right, it was George Wilson. One of the most fun games I've ever been to, up until the last minute or so of regulation. Talk about the highest of highs (pretty much all night) to the lowest of lows.

 

We scored 3 touchdowns on defense/special teams. And 3 POINTS on offense the entire night. 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by CLTbills

[auburnbillsbacker]

Not so much games but

-The first time Wade Phillips didnt wear a headset

-The first time Greg Williams had loud horns go off during training camp

-The first time that Dick Jauron said "winning in the NFL is hard"

-When Doug called himself "Saint Doug"

-As for the former GM Buddy Nix, when he questioned his own intelligence.  Truthfully though, it was hard not to like him and Chan.

[Livinginthepast]

I'll go back to Wade 

 

Wade - 2000 week 15  vs the Colts when the Bills were still in the playoff race and Wade said "we're out of it", basically gave up.

 

Gregg - I knew this guy was a blowhard even before he started his first game, when at his opening press conference, he told us that "this team can win the SB" and then proceeded to go 3-13. Something about him didn't pass the smell test even BEFORE the season started.

 

Mularkey - Week 17 in 2004. With the playoffs on the line, Mularkey loses to the Steelers scrubs in the last game of the season.

 

Jauron-  week 11 in 2007. The Pats destroyed the Bills and kept going for 2 after every TD, just to be Aholes. They also left Brady in the game up by 30 pts. Jauron instead of getting angry and ordering the Bills to man up, just stared into space, totally clueless and turtled for BB. I don't think I have ever been so angry as a Bills fan.

 

Chan - Week 17 2011. The Bills get destroyed by the Pats at Gillette again. Chan finishes his 2nd losing season. 

 

St.Doug - I didn't really get rubbed the wrong way by Marrone until maybe the Raiders game in Marrone's 2nd season. Still he left before I really got a chance to want him gone.

 

Rex -  Week 12 vs KC in 2015, Rex took bad advice from his on field preacher man to throw/ not throw the challenge flag. Just clueless.

 

The Jury is still out on McD but the Chargers INT fest and starting Peterman may be the watershed moment.

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

Bills vs titans. In 06 I think. Vince Young ran all over us but we were down 1 or 2 at the end. Dick Jauron opts for jp to throw to Josh reed (who was interfered with) on 4th down instead of kicking a 40 something yard fg. Dick blamed the wind being too strong for the decision. We were sitting in that end zone and it wasn't very windy at all. 

 

 

[Talley56]

Jauron - November 30, 2008 vs SF.  We lost some games recently but were still 6-5 and very much in the playoff race.  We just pounded the Chiefs one week earlier.  But, we end up losing 10-3 at home to a terrible 49ers team.