Top 9 players in the draft.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

 

I think either can be impactful and getting the guy you think is best is huge. Both OL and the secondary are spots where you need to constantly be adding talent regardless of how pressing week 1 of the next season looks.

I don't disagree with your take about the importance of regularly bringing in players for the OL and secondary. However, this year it is more of a priority to address the offense and especially focus on the line. Our most important player and  investment on the roster is the young qb that we worked so hard to get. It's absolutely essential to put him in a position to physically survive the mayhem caused by a porous OL. Nothing is more important than helping the qb to develop and succeed. There is no doubt that Josh Allen is a terrific runner. And there is no doubt that the more he runs because he has to elude the defense the greater chance that his lifespan as a player will be shortened. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

That would be great, but the real way to get talented offensive linemen is through the draft. The Bills failure to do so is a primary cause of them being perpetual losers. The Bills just keep focusing  secondary and running backs in the draft. Now, we can pretend that this isn't so, however; it is completely factual and very sad indeed.

The market for good free agent offensive linemen is not going to be as great as many people think. And the teams vying for those limited valuable commodities are going to be more numerous than many people are aware of. Or to put it in economic terms the demand is going to be greater than the supply. 

 

Last year, the Colts used a high first round pick and a second round pick on linemen. They  both started and played well. If you ask Andrew Luck if he is happy at how his organization handled that draft I'm confident that he will exuberantly respond with a yes. And it should be noted that this formerly battered qb finished the season healthy. 

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...can you see McBeane trading down to pick up an extra 2nd versus staying at #10?..............

 

Yes, I think trade down is very much in play and someone like Washington makes perfect sense wanting to get ahead of Denver for a QB

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The market for good free agent offensive linemen is not going to be as great as many people think. And the teams vying for those limited valuable commodities are going to be more numerous than many people are aware of. Or to put it in economic terms the demand is going to be greater than the supply. 

 

Last year, the Colts used a high first round pick and a second round pick on linemen. They  both started and played well. If you ask Andrew Luck if he is happy at how his organization handled that draft I'm confident that he will exuberantly respond with a yes. And it should be noted that this formerly battered qb finished the season healthy. 

 

I think the FA market has lots of interior line options that would have a big impact in Buffalo. The tackle market is thinner and I think that is where their draft priority will be. The point of the Colts comparison is that there is no Quenten Nelson in this class. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

That would be great, but the real way to get talented offensive linemen is through the draft. The Bills failure to do so is a primary cause of them being perpetual losers. The Bills just keep focusing  secondary and running backs in the draft. Now, we can pretend that this isn't so, however; it is completely factual and very sad indeed.

 

I’m all for drafting OL too, but we need a lot of OL help, not one guy.  So I want some veteran help, not all rookies.  

 

But to be fair, Bills have been drafting OL, including 2 somewhat relevant ones with this regime in Dawkins and Teller.  

 

OL is clearly a FO priority this season, and I expect a combo of draft and free agency to address it.  

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yes, I think trade down is very much in play and someone like Washington makes perfect sense wanting to get ahead of Denver for a QB

 

Or Carolina for a pass rusher. That clump of teams between Buffalo and Carolina has a lot of organisations who need pass rush help. Bosa, Allen and Ferrell are likely gone by then, but if for example the Panthers have Polite markedly ahead of Sweat and Burns then I could see them jumping. And with the Bengals, Packers, Dolphins and Falcons all needing pass rush help maybe they even think by standing pat at #16 all three of Polite, Sweat and Burns are gone. Then you are left reaching down the board. 

 

I honestly don't think it is crazy to think that 9 or 10 of the first 16 picks could be defensive linemen. It is just such a talented draft in those positions. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

That would be great, but the real way to get talented offensive linemen is through the draft. The Bills failure to do so is a primary cause of them being perpetual losers. The Bills just keep focusing  secondary and running backs in the draft. Now, we can pretend that this isn't so, however; it is completely factual and very sad indeed.

 

We haven't picked a running back high in almost 10 years. Indeed our first round picks this decade have been:

 

2x QB

2x CB

2x WR (both on the same guy)

2x DL

1x LB

 

The problem has been less positional (indeed the two best players among that at this stage with Josh still unproven are the two CBs). The problem has been we have picked badly. EJ, Shaq, Dareus, 2 on Sammy? None of those guys have been worth 1st round picks. Too early to judge the two 2018 guys but to this point the only two who have proven themselves 1st round level talents are Gilmore and White.

 

 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think the FA market has lots of interior line options that would have a big impact in Buffalo. The tackle market is thinner and I think that is where their draft priority will be. The point of the Colts comparison is that there is no Quenten Nelson in this class.

Quenten Nelson is going to be a perennial all-pro. Just because you can't attain that exceptional level of talent on the line doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive to improve the unit with good players and prospects. When discussing the OL the issue shouldn't be considered in isolation with respect only to that unit. The core issue is about putting our qb in a position to succeed. There is a saying: "Don't let perfect be the "

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Quenten Nelson is going to be a perennial all-pro. Just because you can't attain that exceptional level of talent on the line doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive to improve the unit with good players and prospects. When discussing the OL the issue shouldn't be considered in isolation with respect only to that unit. The core issue is about putting our qb in a position to succeed. There is a saying: "Don't let perfect be the "

 

Indeed. And nobody is advocating the Bills ignore the offensive line. But I don't think you can just go into the draft saying "we will pick the best OL on the board at 9". That wasn't what the Colts did. If the Broncos had taken Nelson at #5 the Colts would have taken Chubb at #6. They wouldn't have just taken whoever was the next OL on their board. That is what the Bills used to do "Oh Michael Huff was our guy let's take this next safety - Whitner." 

 

Take the best football player who you think can be an impact guy at a key position. Don't just think "who is our most immediate need for 2019?" 

[Sherlock Holmes]

On 1/18/2019 at 10:53 AM, BrooklynBills said:

Trade back and draft both Iowa TEs Noah Fant and TJ Hockenson

If no Bosa or Greedy then this would be great

[Bill from NYC]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We haven't picked a running back high in almost 10 years. Indeed our first round picks this decade have been:

 

2x QB

2x CB

2x WR (both on the same guy)

2x DL

1x LB

 

The problem has been less positional (indeed the two best players among that at this stage with Josh still unproven are the two CBs). The problem has been we have picked badly. EJ, Shaq, Dareus, 2 on Sammy? None of those guys have been worth 1st round picks. Too early to judge the two 2018 guys but to this point the only two who have proven themselves 1st round level talents are Gilmore and White.

 

 

I look at things a bit differently.

 

In the decade you cite, the Bills have spent 0 first round picks on blockers. They did spend 3 second round picks (Dawkins, Kouandjio, and Glenn).  The above might look OK to some however imo it is a disgrace, made worse by the fact that there were 2 rookie quarterbacks trying to learn the game behind what  (most of the time) was a lousy OL.

 

From day one I was thrilled by the Josh Allen pick. I still am but he needs protection, as well as a running game so he doesn't have to keep running himself. I think it is high time for the Bills to utilize their resources by investing in the health and development of our quarterback.

11 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I’m all for drafting OL too, but we need a lot of OL help, not one guy.  So I want some veteran help, not all rookies.  

 

But to be fair, Bills have been drafting OL, including 2 somewhat relevant ones with this regime in Dawkins and Teller.  

 

OL is clearly a FO priority this season, and I expect a combo of draft and free agency to address it.  

I sure hope that you are right. And I like Teller, but he was a 5th round pick and yes, this is to their credit, but I wouldn't cite this as using high resources on a major need.

[Bill from NYC]

19 hours ago, JohnC said:

The market for good free agent offensive linemen is not going to be as great as many people think. And the teams vying for those limited valuable commodities are going to be more numerous than many people are aware of. Or to put it in economic terms the demand is going to be greater than the supply. 

 

Last year, the Colts used a high first round pick and a second round pick on linemen. They  both started and played well. If you ask Andrew Luck if he is happy at how his organization handled that draft I'm confident that he will exuberantly respond with a yes. And it should be noted that this formerly battered qb finished the season healthy. 

I fully agree John.

 

And speaking of the Colts, they year before they drafted Peyton Manning the took Tarik Glenn (LT) in round one and Adam Meadows (RT) in round 2, and this was even before the NFL was a passing league as much as it is now. Both of these players are not mentioned  as much as other great blockers but they were both sensational, durable, and as great as Peyton was he owes these guys quite a bit.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Bill from NYC

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I look at things a bit differently.

 

In the decade you cite, the Bills have spent 0 first round picks on blockers. They did spend 3 second round picks (Dawkins, Kouandjio, and Glenn).  The above might look OK to some however imo it is a disgrace, made worse by the fact that there were 2 rookie quarterbacks trying to learn the game behind what  (most of the time) was a lousy OL.

 

The point stands - the only two first rounders who have proved the value spent on them (as I say - Allen and Edmunds yet to be determined) is the two in the position that you think they shouldn't have drafted. The problem is NOT the picks spent on Gilmore and White. The problem has been spending first round picks on Sammy Watkins (x2), Shaq Lawson, EJ Manuel etc.

 

As an example - the Sammy pick - they could have stayed where they were and taken Taylor Lewan (who went #11 to the Titans) or Zak Martin (who went #16 to the Cowboys) both of whom have been excellent picks. The 2013 draft was pretty weak throughout but if they weren't going Quarterback they could have taken Kyle Long (who went #20 to the Bears). Looking at the 2015 draft (the pick they had given away in the move up for Sammy) they didn't miss much in terms of OL who were first round types at their slated draft slot. Nor was there much after they picked in the first round of the 2016 Draft (that was a decent OT class but the top 4 - Tunsil, Stanley, Conklin and Decker were all off the board before the Bills picked) though you can say trading up for Reggie Ragland in the 2nd rather than standing pat and taking Cody Whitehair (who went to Chicago) was a big mistake.

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, JohnC said:

The market for good free agent offensive linemen is not going to be as great as many people think. And the teams vying for those limited valuable commodities are going to be more numerous than many people are aware of. Or to put it in economic terms the demand is going to be greater than the supply. 

 

Last year, the Colts used a high first round pick and a second round pick on linemen. They  both started and played well. If you ask Andrew Luck if he is happy at how his organization handled that draft I'm confident that he will exuberantly respond with a yes. And it should be noted that this formerly battered qb finished the season healthy. 

 

 

First, the Colts also brought in Glowinski in FA, which was huge. And Slauson, who played five games, also was an FA.

 

More, the Colts did a great job fortifying their OL, yeah ... but wasn't an awful lot of that because really good OL prospects happened to be available when they picked? There doesn't appear to be a Quenton Nelson in this draft, and you can't force that to be so just because you wish one was.

 

Long-term, this team should work hard on building the OL, and that includes using the draft to seriously address it. But that doesn't mean we should force OL even if it's bad value.

 

I'm not sure whether or not there will be good value at OL when we pick. If there is, I would not be against going OL.

 

And I disagree about your take on FA. There will be plenty of solid decent guys available, guys who will be real upgrades for us even if they're not top ten guys at their position. And with their available cap space they might even bring in one of the top two or three guys available at C or RT.

[Coach Tuesday]

Anywho - Simmons is a beast, he's going to be a disruptive force in the NFL, reminds me of Chris Jones who I loved coming out and who is one of the best players in the league.  Wouldn't mind it at all if they took him.

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

Quenten Nelson is going to be a perennial all-pro. Just because you can't attain that exceptional level of talent on the line doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive to improve the unit with good players and prospects. When discussing the OL the issue shouldn't be considered in isolation with respect only to that unit. The core issue is about putting our qb in a position to succeed. There is a saying: "Don't let perfect be the "

 

 

"... enemy of good." Am I right?

 

Do I win something?

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

First, the Colts also brought in Glowinski in FA, which was huge. And Slauson, who played five games, also was an FA.

 

Yea Slauson was slated to start at RG - Glowinski was 1 year contract for a guy intended to backup who had to start. He is fools paradise Glowinski, he got cut from a Seattle line that was desperate for players. Someone is going to pay him decent $$s in 2019 and they are going to regret it.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

"... enemy of good." Am I right?

 

Do I win something?

You got it right. You win nothing but intrinsic rewards. 

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

First, the Colts also brought in Glowinski in FA, which was huge. And Slauson, who played five games, also was an FA.

 

More, the Colts did a great job fortifying their OL, yeah ... but wasn't an awful lot of that because really good OL prospects happened to be available when they picked? There doesn't appear to be a Quenton Nelson in this draft, and you can't force that to be so just because you wish one was.

 

Long-term, this team should work hard on building the OL, and that includes using the draft to seriously address it. But that doesn't mean we should force OL even if it's bad value.

 

I'm not sure whether or not there will be good value at OL when we pick. If there is, I would not be against going OL.

 

And I disagree about your take on FA. There will be plenty of solid decent guys available, guys who will be real upgrades for us even if they're not top ten guys at their position. And with their available cap space they might even bring in one of the top two or three guys available at C or RT.

I hope you are right about us being able to bring in OL help from the market. We'll see on that. As you pointed out the Colts brought in free agents and used high draft picks to bolster their line. That's exactly the model that I am encouraging. And without question that offseasoni addressing was tremendously beneficial for the team and their prized qb. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Anywho - Simmons is a beast, he's going to be a disruptive force in the NFL, reminds me of Chris Jones who I loved coming out and who is one of the best players in the league.  Wouldn't mind it at all if they took him.

 

Nor me subject, of course, to them being absolutely certain that the off the field stuff is behind him, was a one off, and is not a symptom of deeper personal life issues.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I fully agree John.

 

And speaking of the Colts, they year before they drafted Peyton Manning the took Tarik Glenn (LT) in round one and Adam Meadows (RT) in round 2, and this was even before the NFL was a passing league as much as it is now. Both of these players are not mentioned less than other great blockers but they were both sensational, durable, and as great as Peyton was he owes these guys quite a bit.

You are preaching to the choir. By significantly upgrading the OL we not only will be protecting our qb (our most valuable asset) but we will also have a credible running game. The threat of a good running game enhances the strengths of our strong armed qb. Allen is more suited to a downfield play action passing scheme. He, at least for now, doesn't have the attributes that is suited for a more quick paced rhythm passing that is associated with a west coast offense. 

 

The belief that the both of us share is that when you have extended a lot of resources to get a qb unless you put that player in a position to succeed you are wasting/diminishing your biggest asset. Rebuilding a less than credible line to a good line is essential for success. It's got to done.