John from Riverside Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said: ? well then why cut Peterman? Only he really knew what the target was! Without that knowledge we can’t really say for sure how accurate any of his throws were! "High curve balls" "Cant hit em.....cant lay off em" I think of that saying in a move I saw EVERY time Peterman threw a pick on the SAME pass
Bing Bong Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: So when I asked you for stats supporting your claim that 'Most deep ball completions are thrown anywhere 10-15 yards ahead of the WR, and 10 yards in either direction laterally' you said it was actually just your opinion. Then when you said 'I never see deep balls like that' (from Allen) and I give you an example of a time when he threw a deep ball that gave his wideout time to adjust, you come up with 'well, the Bills weren't playing top football week 2'. Solid. Why do you want stats backing up that deep completions fall in a 100 square foot area? It was a stupid thing to say cause it's pretty obvious. So sorry. My answer about your question of why I said I want to see arc on deep balls after saying I'm fine with an example of Allen throwing a deep ball with arc was "idk what you're talking about". I said I never see throws like that that are on a rope and deep. I'm fine with the air Allen put on that deep ball, that's what I want to see. Touch. But I don't necessarily want my offense predicated on underthrowing a WR that's not open lol. I honestly just didn't understand where you were going there. You asked if I wanted to see throws like -insert random 60 yard Chargers pass- and I said sure: the air on the ball allowed for a completion. Not the best example but yes that's the touch I want to see. Edited March 22, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
YattaOkasan Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 Can someone just repost the eisner show with Dilfer. I can maybe get on board with completion percentage over a career is accuracy, but I still think its a processing measure. This analysis with Brady would be super interesting. I'm not sure hes accurate any more, he is still the best processor of information in the league. Thus his completion percentage is still high. The OP was originally a way to get some steam off for all the "Allen is inaccurate" posts. I'm down with the analysis in the OP that allen is accurate. Can he process quicker and take easier throws? Yes! Would that help his completion %? Yes! Would that help us win? Yes! Is Josh Allen inaccurate? Not more than other QBs is my thought.
Zerovoltz Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Now you're being silly. Peterman threw a ton of picks. Do you want to have a real discussion about this or resort to silliness? I'm being silly? basically this thread has devolved into A. Any data and theories that support Josh Allen, the data is valid B. Any data and theories that suggest Josh Allen has problems passin a football are not valid.... And since we can't know what Allen is seeing or thinking...we can't know how accurate he is? 2 2
JoPar_v2 Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said: I'm being silly? basically this thread has devolved into A. Any data and theories that support Josh Allen, the data is valid B. Any data and theories that suggest Josh Allen has problems passin a football are not valid.... And since we can't know what Allen is seeing or thinking...we can't know how accurate he is? Thank YOU. ? 2
oldmanfan Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said: I'm being silly? basically this thread has devolved into A. Any data and theories that support Josh Allen, the data is valid B. Any data and theories that suggest Josh Allen has problems passin a football are not valid.... And since we can't know what Allen is seeing or thinking...we can't know how accurate he is? No it hasn't and now you're just being dumb. This thread was stated by an individual who did an exhaustive analysis of several young QBs, with the data indicating the supposed accuracy issues Allen has are overblown. We also discussed at length accuracy and precision, and discussed at length why completion percentage is not really an indicator of accuracy. Go back through the thread and look at the dartboard diagrams that show what accuracy means. You can only define accuracy by how close a given throw is to the target. Ergo, if you don't know the exact target you can't really define how accurate a throw is. That is basic statistics and if you want to just ignore that it's your problem. An example would be a throw over the middle Allen made to Clay. Clay had to reach for the ball and it was incomplete. The uneducated would say Allen was inaccurate. But Clay immediately got up and gestured it was on him, I.e. Allen put it right where he wanted it but Clay didn't get to the spot. So again, do you want to have a serious discussion, or be silly? Either way I'll be watching UB so it'll be a while. Maybe you can spend time on your beloved Chiefs site for a while. 1
Bing Bong Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: So why'd you say this then? Now that I understand the point of your question.. I said I never see deep completions on a rope like JA attempted to Robert Foster. I see balls with enough air where the WR can adjust. Like Allen's 60 yard completion to Zay in the Chargers game. So that's why I said deep balls with arc are good...... You understand when you're cryptically asking a string of questions with no explanation we're not exactly communicating effectively. Edited March 22, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
LSHMEAB Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 Just now, JoPar_v2 said: Thank YOU. ? He just used like 3 sentences to describe this entire thread. I appreciate the effort put forth by the OP. Truly. But the proof will be in the pudding. There is every reason to believe that IF Allen is the real deal, all of these questions will be put to bed in 2019. We will see a quantum leap both statistically and stylistically. We can't just cherry pick data if we want to have intelligent discourse. I put all the data aside on gameday, but prefer to spend my time on this forum objectively analyzing facts. 2
oldmanfan Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: He just used like 3 sentences to describe this entire thread. I appreciate the effort put forth by the OP. Truly. But the proof will be in the pudding. There is every reason to believe that IF Allen is the real deal, all of these questions will be put to bed in 2019. We will see a quantum leap both statistically and stylistically. We can't just cherry pick data if we want to have intelligent discourse. I put all the data aside on gameday, but prefer to spend my time on this forum objectively analyzing facts. I don't think he cherry picked, he did a ton of work on a lot of QBs. Allen has work to do for sure, just that the accuracy stuff is overblown. Back to the game. 2 1
JoPar_v2 Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: He just used like 3 sentences to describe this entire thread. I appreciate the effort put forth by the OP. Truly. But the proof will be in the pudding. There is every reason to believe that IF Allen is the real deal, all of these questions will be put to bed in 2019. We will see a quantum leap both statistically and stylistically. We can't just cherry pick data if we want to have intelligent discourse. I put all the data aside on gameday, but prefer to spend my time on this forum objectively analyzing facts. Exactly. I appreciate the work done, but to sit here and pretend the OP didn’t make a TON of assumptions of the homer variety is completely ridiculous. Leave it to the KC fan to put things in persepctive. I know we are all desperate for a actual, real-life good QB here, but I’ve never, EVER seen such a concerted effort to whitewash this kid’s flaws. Somebody in another thread called Allen a “budding superstar” the other day. Assumingly with a straight face as he or she typed it. 2
oldmanfan Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said: Exactly. I appreciate the work done, but to sit here and pretend the OP didn’t make a TON of assumptions of the homer variety is completely ridiculous. Leave it to the KC fan to put things in persepctive. I know we are all desperate for a actual, real-life good QB here, but I’ve never, EVER seen such a concerted effort to whitewash this kid’s flaws. Somebody in another thread called Allen a “budding superstar” the other day. Assumingly with a straight face as he or she typed it. Not whitewashing, identifying correctly. He like most young QBs has to learn to read defenses, has to learn to take the easy shorter completion. Needs a little more touch on short throws. But saying he's inaccurate is just lazy as shown by the OP. 1
JoPar_v2 Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: Not whitewashing, identifying correctly. He like most young QBs has to learn to read defenses, has to learn to take the easy shorter completion. Needs a little more touch on short throws. But saying he's inaccurate is just lazy as shown by the OP. Did he say Allen was “accurate” though? I don’t think so. Seems like he said Allen was “as inaccurate” as certain other quarterbacks he looked at. For one of his biggest cheerleaders throughout this thread, seems like you missed the headline. Not surprised; you’re the biggest Allen stan here.
oldmanfan Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 Just now, JoPar_v2 said: Did he say Allen was “accurate” though? I don’t think so. Seems like he said Allen was “as inaccurate” as certain other quarterbacks he looked at. For one of his biggest cheerleaders throughout this thread, seems like you missed the headline. Not surprised; you’re the biggest Allen stan here. Just stop with the nonsense. I just said above that the kid has a ways to go. Which I've said consistently. The OP talked about how Allen's accuracy is similar to other young QBs. He did so because so many claimed he was worse, based primarily on completion percentage which is a false equivalency. I understand perfectly. 1
Foxx Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 42 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said: I'm being silly? basically this thread has devolved into A. Any data and theories that support Josh Allen, the data is valid B. Any data and theories that suggest Josh Allen has problems passin a football are not valid.... And since we can't know what Allen is seeing or thinking...we can't know how accurate he is? but, but... he's really precise. 1
JoPar_v2 Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: Just stop with the nonsense. I just said above that the kid has a ways to go. Which I've said consistently. The OP talked about how Allen's accuracy is similar to other young QBs. He did so because so many claimed he was worse, based primarily on completion percentage which is a false equivalency. I understand perfectly. Everything you said about accuracy vs precision was correct. It’s foolhardy though to stare all these QBs throws and make some sort of determination of “oh yes that was intended to be thrown there and it was a little off” and mark it a minus, or vice versa. You, me, none of us know enough about the “back-end” of the plays in question to make those judgments. Clay raising his hand on one play “my bad’ing” doesn’t mean Allen didn’t also do anything wrong on that play.
oldmanfan Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said: Everything you said about accuracy vs precision was correct. It’s foolhardy though to stare all these QBs throws and make some sort of determination of “oh yes that was intended to be thrown there and it was a little off” and mark it a minus, or vice versa. You, me, none of us know enough about the “back-end” of the plays in question to make those judgments. Clay raising his hand on one play “my bad’ing” doesn’t mean Allen didn’t also do anything wrong on that play. I agree. That is why these simplistic "he's inaccurate" statements are lazy IMHO. I used the Clay as an example, but without asking Allen I can't know for sure if he threw it right where he wanted. 1
GoBills808 Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said: Exactly. I appreciate the work done, but to sit here and pretend the OP didn’t make a TON of assumptions of the homer variety is completely ridiculous. Leave it to the KC fan to put things in persepctive. I know we are all desperate for a actual, real-life good QB here, but I’ve never, EVER seen such a concerted effort to whitewash this kid’s flaws. Somebody in another thread called Allen a “budding superstar” the other day. Assumingly with a straight face as he or she typed it. I think it’s pretty funny hearing the KC fan say ‘supporting cast doesn’t matter’, myself. Nothing like Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt, and Tyreek Hill for putting things in perspective.
GunnerBill Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 3 hours ago, syhuang said: This is logically flaw. When you said X was the only Quarterback (I emphasize only here), this makes none of the other players on the roster qualify as "Quarterback" no matter what your definition of "Quarterback" is. Otherwise, if anyone else on the roster is considered a Quarterback, X is then not the only Quarterback. Thus, X would be the best (and the wort, and the only) Quarterback on the roster. No he would be the only Quarterback on the roster and still worse than the 3rd string TE.
Doc Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: I agree. That is why these simplistic "he's inaccurate" statements are lazy IMHO. I used the Clay as an example, but without asking Allen I can't know for sure if he threw it right where he wanted. I saw enough drops in games to know the fault wasn't mostly with Josh. That Clay play was the most egregious though as it was a game-killer.
LSHMEAB Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: I think it’s pretty funny hearing the KC fan say ‘supporting cast doesn’t matter’, myself. Nothing like Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt, and Tyreek Hill for putting things in perspective. Our supporting cast looks vastly improved, so big things ahead! Josh also has a valuable year of game experience under his belt so that should give him a leg up on Mahomes.
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