dollars 2 donuts Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Every so often I am going to keep coming back here to say that the Allen vs Mahommes is a red herring in this mishy-gosh. This is about a reporter taking a dig at Buffalo and the Bills, when there were other fish to fry, as well, concerning the option to take Mahommes.
TheElectricCompany Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Mahomes in 2017 and Ridley in 2018 was the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" move.
Shaw66 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 21 hours ago, uticaclub said: Right, I'd rather have Mahomes production then Allen's potential Other than to say I definitely would not trade the three for the one, I haven't posted here. Others probably have said what I'm going to say. First, if the question is whether I'd trade those three guys for one of the ten best quarterbacks of all time at the beginning of his career, the answer is yes, I'd make that trade. QBs are too important, and having an all-time great as your QB is priceless. The problem is two-fold. One part of the problem is whether Mahomes actually IS an all-time great or just had a season that made him look that way. The other part of the problem is exactly how great Allen actually will turn out to be. If Allen becomes an all-time great, it wouldn't make sense to trade Edmunds and White just to be able to swap all-time greats. As for the Mahomes problem, I don't think he's an all-time great. He IS amazing, I'll grant that. He's creative and he's athletic. He understand and he executes the offense. But I think he's the product of the environment he's in; that is, he's playing for one of the very few coaching geniuses out there, a guy who given the tools can attack defenses in remarkable and effective ways. And Reid has the tools, not just at QB, but at wideout and at tight end and on the offensive line. One reason their offense has slowed down, I believe, is that they lost their running back. He was an important part of the package. I said early in this past season something that someone else said in this thread - if you'd given Allen a year on the bench in Kansas City and named Allen the starter for 2018, people around the country would be talking about Allen instead of Mahomes. I really believe that. Mahomes looks to be a little more intuitive at QB and a little more creative, but Allen is better in and the pocket and is a better runner. Allen would have had great production in the the KC offense this season. And I think size matters. I think over time Mahomes size will be a liability. Over time, both guys will run and scramble less, because their bodies won't let them do the things they do know, and because defenses will adjust to their style. They will be forced to succeed more as pocket passers. When that happens, Allen will have a definite edge. Allen's size will allow him to play like Big Ben, and it will allow him to have a long career as a field general. Yes, it's true that Brees has succeeded largely as a pocket passer, and he's practically tiny. But Brees has had the luxury of a certifiable offensive genius as his head coach. And Brees is a freak. The odds of Mahomes evolving into the next Brees are smaller than Allen evolving into the next Big Ben. So for me, long-term, Allen and Mahomes are a push. Yes, Mahomes is in the lead currently; he's had a one-year head start and he's surrounded by talent. How much better do you think Allen's numbers would have been in 2018 if he'd been throwing to Kelce instead of Clay and Tyreek Hill instead of Foster? IF those two QBs are a push, I'm certainly not trading Edmunds and White so I can have Mahomes over Allen. And that's BEFORE I consider the real possibility that in the Edmunds the Bills have the best middle linebacker in the league for the decade of the 20s. 4
TheElectricCompany Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) What's with the constant need to tear down Mahomes' awe inspiring season, while propping up Josh's? Edited January 11, 2019 by TheElectricCompany 1
dave mcbride Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: It's not about us holding off on this sort of analysis.......as I predicted.......it's already happening..........my point was that these stories become large during the playoffs. And heaven forbid Mahomes makes it to the SB.........the storylines about Buffalo's stupidity for trading that pick will be too easy and juicy for story-desperate writers to ignore. Sorry - I was referring to your Mahomes/Allen - Marino/Kelly comparison. If Mahomes wins a SB, he's not Marino. That was my point. Edited January 11, 2019 by dave mcbride
Dr. Who Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 39 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said: What's with the constant need to tear down Mahomes' awe inspiring season, while propping up Josh's? The rhetoric of your question is just as liable to indicate significant bias -- and I like Mahomes and argued right up to the 2017 draft that we should take him. I'm also thrilled with Josh Allen. They may both end up being superlative qbs. Mahomes may regress, get better, maintain stellar play for years. Allen does not have the surrounding talent or likely coaching staff, given Reid's exceptional abilities. Projecting based on potential is all one can do after a rookie season which involved a subpar oline, injury, and very limited receiver, rb, and te talent. Is recognizing that "propping up" Josh? 1
Shaw66 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: The rhetoric of your question is just as liable to indicate significant bias -- and I like Mahomes and argued right up to the 2017 draft that we should take him. I'm also thrilled with Josh Allen. They may both end up being superlative qbs. Mahomes may regress, get better, maintain stellar play for years. Allen does not have the surrounding talent or likely coaching staff, given Reid's exceptional abilities. Projecting based on potential is all one can do after a rookie season which involved a subpar oline, injury, and very limited receiver, rb, and te talent. Is recognizing that "propping up" Josh? Right. Look, there's no denying that Mahomes has been spectacular. The problem is we're talking about the future, not the past, and no one can predict the future. Prescott looked spectacular his rookie year. Where Allen is headed, and where Mahomes is headed, no one knows. In my view, there's a pretty good chance they're both stars, and I think there's about an equal chance they're both journeymen. Yes, Mahomes to date has been better, no question. But Mahomes has a year, a coach, a wideout, a tight end and an offensive line over Allen. Too soon to tell. But since I view it as a push, it makes no sense to me to give up Edmunds to swap QBs. Edmunds has huge potential. 2
JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Not sure I understand your intent, but are you comparing Jim Kelly and Josh Allen in your analogy? Those two shouldn't be compared yet. Same with Bruce and ... who ... Bruce and Tre White also should not be compared, though Tre looks like a very fine young player. I agree with you that you wouldn't trade Kelly, Bruce and Talley for Tom Brady but that's not a good analogy for the theoretical trade we're talking about. That's two HOFers and Talley, who was maybe the heart of the team, or at least the defense. Allen, White and Zay (or Edmunds, White and Zay, if that's what was meant) have a long long way to go before they can be compared to that group. Lets revisit this in 10 years when Allen, Edmonds and White are all locks for the HOF.
LSHMEAB Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 I still want to know who the heck this Mahommes guy is. Is he a free agent/draft prospect/potential OL coach? At any rate, hard pass. Sounds like he's really overrated based on what I've seen in this thread.
TheElectricCompany Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Where Allen is headed, and where Mahomes is headed, no one knows. Inl. Yes, and no..... Can you think of a single example where a QB had a ridiculous season like Mahomes did, and then turned into anything but an elite, top tier QB? I can't. Not saying that it can't happen, but the odds are low. Your statement that he could become a journeyman is ridiculous . You could argue that Josh will have a tough time surpassing his rate stats in the NCAA, because history does support that, but at the same time, 5 TDs against the Dolphins doesn't lie. Can you think of a QB who scored 5 TDs against any opponent and turned into a bust? I can't. I've perked up about his potential. There should be improvements in his play based on comfort within the scheme, additional playmakers coming on board, etc. etc, but the gap between between where he's at, and what a elite, top tier QB looks like, is pretty immense. Edited January 11, 2019 by TheElectricCompany
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said: Yes, and no..... Can you think of a single example where a QB had a ridiculous season like Mahomes did, and then turned into anything but an elite, top tier QB? I can't. Not saying that it can't happen, but the odds are low. You could argue that Josh will have a tough time surpassing his rate stats in the NCAA, because history does support that, but at the same time, 5 TDs against the Dolphins doesn't lie. Can you think of a QB who scored 5 TDs against any opponent and turned into a bust? I can't. I've perked up about his potential. There should be improvements in his play based on comfort within the scheme, additional playmakers coming on board, etc. etc, but the gap between between where he's at, and what a elite, top tier QB looks like, is pretty immense. Matt Flynn had 6 in a game. generally, I agree with your post. Allen could turn out to be a fine QB but he has never really been a dominant one on any level. Mahomes had seasons like this in college so it “seems” like it is not a fluke. Basically, we are hoping Allen becomes a better QB in the nfl than he was in the MWC. Honest question: how often does that happen? 1
Dr. Who Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Right. Look, there's no denying that Mahomes has been spectacular. The problem is we're talking about the future, not the past, and no one can predict the future. Prescott looked spectacular his rookie year. Where Allen is headed, and where Mahomes is headed, no one knows. In my view, there's a pretty good chance they're both stars, and I think there's about an equal chance they're both journeymen. Yes, Mahomes to date has been better, no question. But Mahomes has a year, a coach, a wideout, a tight end and an offensive line over Allen. Too soon to tell. But since I view it as a push, it makes no sense to me to give up Edmunds to swap QBs. Edmunds has huge potential. I have confidence McDermott knows D and that White and Edmunds are likely key pieces in building a top-tier defense. Mahomes has to score a lot, because the KC defense is likely to give up 35 points. If Allen turns into a more athletic Big Ben and the D is good, that's a recipe for post-season appearances and success. Edited January 11, 2019 by Dr. Who
LSHMEAB Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 7 hours ago, NJKBillsfan said: After reading this thread I gotta make some points. 1) A lot of people are saying stuff like "hindsight is 20/20... how we're we supposed to know Mahomes would be this good" -- Isn't this is why coaches, scouts, etc get paid MILLIONS of dollars? So they can evaluate players and determine if they will be good? Obviously KC must have had a pretty damn good feeling that Mahomes would be a special talent if they traded from 27th all the way to 10th to get him. 2) Another common thing people are saying is "Mahomes wouldn't be good in Buffalo anyway" -- This is another false statement. If you watch Mahomes play the kid is just a damn good quarterback in all aspects. Arm strength, mobility, pocket awareness, accuracy, etc. A QB with THAT much talent will be successful no matter where he plays. Hell even if you you literally cut Mahomes # of TD passes in half he'd still have 25. For a young QB 25 passing TD's is still pretty incredible. People just have to admit the Bills blew this opportunity for a really special quarterback. Good post. If the Bills could go back in time, they would have(hopefully) taken Mahomes. It's silly to bend oneself into knots trying to bash the kid just because we passed. It was an odd situation with the lame duck GM/new HC/etc. It really can't be healthy to try to convince yourself that what you see isn't true. And once again; if Allen is the real deal, NONE OF THIS WILL MATTER. Nobody in their right mind is going to say, "gee Allen threw for 34 TD's and the Bills went 11-5, but Mahomes threw for 40 TD'S and the Chiefs went 12-4. We really screwed up." This conversation will die when Allen proves he's a franchise QB. 2
TheElectricCompany Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Matt Flynn had 6 in a game. generally, I agree with your post. Allen could turn out to be a fine QB but he has never really been a dominant one on any level. Mahomes had seasons like this in college so it “seems” like it is not a fluke. Basically, we are hoping Allen becomes a better QB in the nfl than he was in the MWC. Honest question: how often does that happen? Good one, 480 yards and 6 TDs that game! I guess the Lions forgot to play defense.
Shaw66 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 27 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said: Yes, and no..... Can you think of a single example where a QB had a ridiculous season like Mahomes did, and then turned into anything but an elite, top tier QB? I can't. Not saying that it can't happen, but the odds are low. Your statement that he could become a journeyman is ridiculous . You could argue that Josh will have a tough time surpassing his rate stats in the NCAA, because history does support that, but at the same time, 5 TDs against the Dolphins doesn't lie. Can you think of a QB who scored 5 TDs against any opponent and turned into a bust? I can't. I've perked up about his potential. There should be improvements in his play based on comfort within the scheme, additional playmakers coming on board, etc. etc, but the gap between between where he's at, and what a elite, top tier QB looks like, is pretty immense. Okay, you asked for it. Here's SI's list of the top 10 rookie seasons for QBs. https://www.si.com/nfl/photo/2016/10/11/best-rookie-quarterback-seasons-nfl-history#8 On the list are: Robert Griffin III, Jameis WInston, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton. Out of ten, one is a bust and three are NOTelite or top tier. And those are the rookies, not guys who sat for a year and then started. There probably are a few of those, too. Like I said, it's too early to tell.
BADOLBILZ Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: Sorry - I was referring to your Mahomes/Allen - Marino/Kelly comparison. If Mahomes wins a SB, he's not Marino. That was my point. OK, yeah I guess if he actually wins a SB it really becomes an uphill climb. Bills fans have been largely shielded from national criticism/mockery for trading away the chance to select a QB who threw 50+ TD passes in his second season. Buffalo is a great tv market for postseason football so if the Chiefs keep winning Bills fans will soon be consuming a lot of stories about how the Chiefs managed to get such a great young QB.........and the Buffalo media will follow up.
TheElectricCompany Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Okay, you asked for it. Here's SI's list of the top 10 rookie seasons for QBs. https://www.si.com/nfl/photo/2016/10/11/best-rookie-quarterback-seasons-nfl-history#8 On the list are: Robert Griffin III, Jameis WInston, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton. Out of ten, one is a bust and three are NOTelite or top tier. And those are the rookies, not guys who sat for a year and then started. There probably are a few of those, too. Like I said, it's too early to tell. Quick skim...outside of Cam Newton, everyone on that list put up 30 total TDs or less. You are comparing that to Mahomes 52 total TDs and 5000+ yards? Geezus. Too soon to tell....give me a break. Edited January 11, 2019 by TheElectricCompany 1
KD in CA Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: Will definitely do that, thanks for the tip! It's one of the more compelling 30 for 30 installments. Two of the best QBs in history represented by the same agent and both had wild pre-draft stories. Picks that impacted the NFL for a generation. What if the Lions had the foresight to take Kelly and Marino went to Buffalo? What if Pittsburgh went with their gut and took Marino? Or what if the Pats or Jets had made the correct pick with Marino? What if Steinbrenner had convinced Elway to play for the Yankees? What if the Colts had traded the pick to any one of about ten teams who were trying to get the #1 pick? And oh by the way, 3 other non-QB HOFs went in that first round. 1
BuffaloBillsGospel Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 19 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Yeah dude. Normal teams hire the coach first and then hire his friend to be the GM after. Completely normal. I’m sure Beane lays down the law. Give me an article that states what you're talking about from either Beane or McDermott otherwise you're just another dude talking out his ass like countless others.
Shaw66 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said: Quick skim...outside of Cam Newton, everyone on that list put up 30 total TDs or less. You are comparing that to Mahomes 52 total TDs and 5000+ yards? Geezus. Too soon to tell....give me a break. Acctually you're right, in the sense that NO ONE has ever put up a ridiculous season like Mahomes in his first. But that means that there's NEVER been a guy who's become an elite QB after having put up such a season. It's never happened, so the fact that he put up an elite season doesn't say anything about his future.
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