Stephon Gilmore - first team AP All-Pro

[Capco]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Obviously I'm not suggesting that.

 

 

That's not what you are arguing or what we are talking about here.  You stated as fact that they miss these calls far more often with NE than other teams---leading to what appears to be better play by Gilmore.  I'm asking you to give the evidence for "missed calls" that backs up this claim.

 

You're right, I shouldn't have stated it as fact since no one that I can find keeps track of penalties that could have been called but weren't.  The NFL keeps track of missed calls when they grade the zebras' accuracy every week to determine who officiates the Superbowl and who gets fired, but that data isn't available as far as I can tell.  

 

It's just an observation from a casual fan, but certainly one that I'm not alone in seeing and certainly not impossible.  Why that troubles a Bills fan as much as it is troubling you is beyond me, however.  

 

And then there's stuff like this:  https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/29/16943670/new-england-patriots-penalties-edge

 

And this:  https://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/09/timespicayune_analysis_of_last.html

[Mr. WEO]

26 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

You're right, I shouldn't have stated it as fact since no one that I can find keeps track of penalties that could have been called but weren't.  The NFL keeps track of missed calls when they grade the zebras' accuracy every week to determine who officiates the Superbowl and who gets fired, but that data isn't available as far as I can tell.  

 

It's just an observation from a casual fan, but certainly one that I'm not alone in seeing and certainly not impossible.  Why that troubles a Bills fan as much as it is troubling you is beyond me, however.  

 

And then there's stuff like this:  https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/29/16943670/new-england-patriots-penalties-edge

 

And this:  https://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/09/timespicayune_analysis_of_last.html

 

The article you cited lists that accuracy at 98%.  It also documents that, while there is a wide variety in how many of certain  penalties each crew calls, crews call them "fairly consistently", and that there is actually negative home field bias.

 

What should trouble anyone is another poster's insistence that others accept what he casually "sees" on the field as real.  People go on and on about "you breath on Brady and it's roughing the passer, when it's clear that the data proves that is wrong.

 

So, you still haven't convinced me that Gilmore looks better than he is because of an obvious (to you) disproportionate number of "uncalled" penalties. 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Perhaps Gilmore finally decided to get dirty and tackle someone.

[vincec]

It seems that the best way to build a winner is to get rid of good players to save money and then use your draft picks to try and find their replacements instead of addressing other areas. Until of course they want big contracts...

[Ethan in Cleveland]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The reason Gilmore and Darby were let walk is that they probably didn't fit well with McDermott's scheme.

 

That's the problem when one changes coaches every 2 years.

If Gilmore doesn’t fit your scheme, then the problem is the scheme or the coach’s unwillingness to adapt.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good post.

 

I disagree with you a bit on Woods.  The overall number and duration of his contract sounded big - $39M with $15M guaranteed - but his actual cap number in 2017 was only $7M, and the actual guarantee was $10M, with additional injury guarantee of $5M if he was on the 2018 roster.  After 2018, they were not (until the 2017 season finished) really committed if he hadn't worked out.

 

When you get into the details, that's really not star WR money - the guaranteed money puts Wood at #39 or so currently and maybe #34? when he signed. Fundamentally, the Rams paid him like a high-quality #2, which was totally fair for his 2016 performance on the Bills - not the overall yards, but the catch % and the abilities he showed.   He led us in yards and in WR/TE catch %, he was only a few yards less YPG than Sammy, and Woods played 13 games.

 

When you add up what the Bills spent on other WR in the aggregate in 2017 and certainly 2018, it's really kind of hard to argue the Bills couldn't have paid Woods.

 

 

And then there's this

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/2/18164980/nfl-playoffs-quarterbacks-salary-cap-kirk-cousins-patrick-mahomes

I will take your word for it. Woods was solid. Dropped a few. Fumbled a few but was good. Still seemed like Rams overpaid with a young QB on a rookie deal.  Hopefully the Bills will be able to do the same and get a good WR for Allen

[oldmanfan]

Good for Gilmore.  Bad for folks memories.   Gilmore has improved under Belichick.  When we had him he had good coverage skills but did not track the ball well.  He also was not good in run support and had questionable tackling skills - remember many times him just throwing a shoulder at a guy and watching him Boyce off.  McD's D expects CBs to perform in run support.

[NoSaint]

I’ve long chalked up part of the Gilmore dislike to a lack of good benchmarking. Winfield, clements, Greer, McGee, Gilmore, Darby, White.... its a better run at CB than most teams have had. I think it really skewed a lot of fans perception of normal CB play around the league.

 

add the myth of revis island in the division and suddenly things get real screwy with expectations

 

there are a few spots I think the fan base got a little out of touch - how good our CB play has often been, and our fear of ever spending money jump to mind.

Edited January 6, 2019 by NoSaint

[3rdand12]

I think Gilmore was severely under Coached in Buffalo.
Recall when Darby came on and Ronald spoke of Stephon mentoring him right away.
That comment concerned me.

[RevWarRifleman]

On 1/4/2019 at 2:17 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Whaley sucks.  Too bad Gilmore didn’t smile on draft day!!!

C Biscuit, good memory. You're draft day observation got me thinking.It had been so many years ago.  So I looked it up on You tube and sure enough. A rather

 

strange reaction by a draftee. And there's something else if you take a look. One of the guys he hugged, he purposely whispered something in his ear the opposite

 

side of where the camera was so no one could see his expression nor read his lips. I'm not trying to be a conspirorist or anything, but I feel it was all part of his

 

behavior at that moment.   Just saying.

[Real McClappy]

On 1/4/2019 at 3:15 PM, thebandit27 said:

 

I don't really agree with that.  He's a quiet guy that just goes about his job.  And he's good at it.

 

 

Patently false.  The Bills low-balled him when he was going to be the #1 corner on the market.  He would've gladly stayed for CB1 money, but he wasn't offered CB1 money here.

Spot on!

 

Gilmore was a professional that never caused drama or ran his mouth. The hate for a top 5 CB in the league by some of our fans is funny.

 

In 2 years when we have to pay Tre top 10 CB $$$ what is going to be said?

[Rico]

1 minute ago, Billsmisery said:

Who cares I'm glad the guys gone, I'm having a hard time finder a bigger d-bag that's a former Bill.....I'm sure ones out there. 

[Dr.Sack]

Good for Gilmore it’s taken him 7 seasons to climb to the top of his position & at age 29 next year expect him to stick around the top 1/3 for the next 3-4 seasons. 

[3rdand12]

14 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

If Gilmore doesn’t fit your scheme, then the problem is the scheme or the coach’s unwillingness to adapt.

Mmmm ? not sure in this case.

McD had a defense that functioned at a very high level. and was proven.
in this case, i agree that he need to find the players to fit his methods. Proven it works already has he not ?

 and without Gilmore or Darby
Not everyone is Wade Phillips  : )

1 hour ago, RevWarRifleman said:

C Biscuit, good memory. You're draft day observation got me thinking.It had been so many years ago.  So I looked it up on You tube and sure enough. A rather

 

strange reaction by a draftee. And there's something else if you take a look. One of the guys he hugged, he purposely whispered something in his ear the opposite

 

side of where the camera was so no one could see his expression nor read his lips. I'm not trying to be a conspirorist or anything, but I feel it was all part of his

 

behavior at that moment.   Just saying.

that was when we called him Happy Gilmore.
he looked bummed.
and playing for Rex and the Rob might have dimmed his light.
like i said before, very talented player, perhaps under developed ? in Buffalo.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Mmmm ? not sure in this case.

McD had a defense that functioned at a very high level. and was proven.
in this case, i agree that he need to find the players to fit his methods. Proven it works already has he not ?

 and without Gilmore or Darby
Not everyone is Wade Phillips  : )

that was when we called him Happy Gilmore.
he looked bummed.
and playing for Rex and the Rob might have dimmed his light.
like i said before, very talented player, perhaps under developed ? in Buffalo.

I'm sorry. It's easier to find a DC than it is to find a ProBowl CB.  And to McD's credit he did evolve his defense.  His defense has a lot of zone coverage but he used White in man to man quite a bit this year. Good for him. Like I said in another post, I've wiped the slate clean and am just going to evaluate the decisions in FA and draft moving forward.

[3rdand12]

22 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Spot on!

 

Gilmore was a professional that never caused drama or ran his mouth. The hate for a top 5 CB in the league by some of our fans is funny.

 

In 2 years when we have to pay Tre top 10 CB $$$ what is going to be said?

well that is something we shall hope to find out !
let us not look to the future relying upon the past as a crystal ball.

New Regime will have to start paying the bills in a couple years if they want to keep "their" players.
and these moments are how I judge and Organization

 and why the constant 3 year complete turnovers have hampered the long term build.
exception  Rex Ryan. that was a mistake that needed to be flushed.

Let us hope we get to see Bills reward the White and Milanos etc etc.
Cant pay em all. But you can make a sincere consistent effort to retain your own. and i bet that is a McBeane Mantra. I have hope for Bills future

and i am still glad SG is gone. it was not working nor going to work in Buffalo 

 some players i just do not care for. it is just opinion. he is one of those

Just now, Ethan in Portland said:

I'm sorry. It's easier to find a DC than it is to find a ProBowl CB.  And to McD's credit he did evolve his defense.  His defense has a lot of zone coverage but he used White in man to man quite a bit this year. Good for him. Like I said in another post, I've wiped the slate clean and am just going to evaluate the decisions in FA and draft moving forward.

Good post.
after all the purging. I am still in wait and see on many aspects.

But our defense looked good to very good to me this year. and I thinks that is McD scheming/ coaching/motivating above player talent.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

well that is something we shall hope to find out !
let us not look to the future relying upon the past as a crystal ball.

New Regime will have to start paying the bills in a couple years if they want to keep "their" players.
and these moments are how I judge and Organization

 and why the constant 3 year complete turnovers have hampered the long term build.
exception  Rex Ryan. that was a mistake that needed to be flushed.

Let us hope we get to see Bills reward the White and Milanos etc etc.
Cant pay em all. But you can make a sincere consistent effort to retain your own. and i bet that is a McBeane Mantra. I have hope for Bills future

and i am still glad SG is gone. it was not working nor going to work in Buffalo 

 some players i just do not care for. it is just opinion. he is one of those

Good post.
after all the purging. I am still in wait and see on many aspects.

But our defense looked good to very good to me this year. and I thinks that is McD scheming/ coaching/motivating above player talent.

 

It's a very good modern NFL defense that bends but doesn't break often. Forces offenses to execute multiple successful plays in a row to score. 

They need to add an OLB pass rusher and Edmunds needs to continue to develop to truly be dominant.

[Troll Toll]

Tre White has made more game changing plays in 2 seasons than Gilmore has made in his career. 

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Troll Toll said:

Tre White has made more game changing plays in 2 seasons than Gilmore has made in his career. 

 

Could you quantify that for us? I'd be interested to see the numbers 

[BillsMafia13]

On 1/4/2019 at 3:15 PM, thebandit27 said:

 

I don't really agree with that.  He's a quiet guy that just goes about his job.  And he's good at it.

 

 

Patently false.  The Bills low-balled him when he was going to be the #1 corner on the market.  He would've gladly stayed for CB1 money, but he wasn't offered CB1 money here.

What do you mean not true.  I get he's got the personality of a rock but look at his face draft night. He looked like he just got the death penalty on the biggest night of his life.  Its obvious he didnt want to be here, great cb but it was painfully obvious