NoSaint Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: That's true for media members who look at stats & never watch the games. It would be as irresponsible as one of us declaring Josh Rosen a bust without seeing any of his games. I feel I'm totally unqualified to form an opinion of Rosen because I don't watch the games he plays in. I also feel I have an informed opinion of Allen because I've seen every down he's played with the exception of the 1st series in Houston where I had to switch places to watch the game when the place I normally go didn't show the Bills that week. I seriously doubt Rosenthal has seen enough to form an accurate opinion on Allen. To me it looks like he looked at some stats & mailed it in, while a true professional would have watched every game played this year. I know that's a lot of work, but really-that's the guy's friggin' job. If I was paid to write about the NFL, I'd make sure I reviewed everything before I went to the keyboard, but then I probably have a better work ethic than this hack Rosenthal. What specifically makes you think that he hasn’t watched enough to have an opinion? i don’t think the standard is perfection but I’m guessing he’s seen most games 1
MJS Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Cam Newton had 50 tds in a season. He is little underrated on this board. Comparing strengths and weaknesses, not production, experience, etc.
Albany,n.y. Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, NoSaint said: What specifically makes you think that he hasn’t watched enough to have an opinion? i don’t think the standard is perfection but I’m guessing he’s seen most games His reliance on stats. If he's watching all the games how could he have Bortles ahead of Allen when Bortles own coaches got sick of the guy? Now I'll freely admit I don't know enough about Bortles because I don't watch him, but his in season benching says a lot-done by the guys who see him every day. If he was watching Allen, he might not be with Leo Roth who is already reserving a spot for Josh on the Wall of Fame after seeing him play all year, but he'd be able to explain why you can't rank Josh Allen's season with a bunch of stats. BTW for the record I hate QB stats. I'm more of a visual fan who after watching football for over 55 years goes more by what I see than numbers on a sheet of paper.
McBean Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 So let me get this straight, the man has Blake Bortles ahead of Josh Allen? Yeah, Allen must’ve definitely banged Rosenthal’s wife.
NoSaint Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: His reliance on stats. If he's watching all the games how could he have Bortles ahead of Allen when Bortles own coaches got sick of the guy? Now I'll freely admit I don't know enough about Bortles because I don't watch him, but his in season benching says a lot-done by the guys who see him every day. If he was watching Allen, he might not be with Leo Roth who is already reserving a spot for Josh on the Wall of Fame after seeing him play all year, but he'd be able to explain why you can't rank Josh Allen's season with a bunch of stats. BTW for the record I hate QB stats. I'm more of a visual fan who after watching football for over 55 years goes more by what I see than numbers on a sheet of paper. So you can’t trust stats but you can trust your eyes but you didn’t watch bortles but allen must have been better because bortles got benched (ignoring allen losing out to peterman) when ranking passers in 2018 Snarkier than intended but you have to admit it’s a tiny bit amusing that youre knocking a guys rankings for not watching based on the fact that you didn’t watch.
hemma Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, NoSaint said: So you can’t trust stats but you can trust your eyes but you didn’t watch bortles but allen must have been better because bortles got benched (ignoring allen losing out to peterman) when ranking passers in 2018 Snarkier than intended but you have to admit it’s a tiny bit amusing that youre knocking a guys rankings for not watching based on the fact that you didn’t watch. It’s way too painful to watch Bortles for more than a couple of series. Marrone sat him just so he wouldn’t have to watch film of the flutter ball’s.
JoPar_v2 Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 It’s just another terrible take by a talking head that watched exactly zero minutes of josh allen or the bills this year. He’s going on numbers alone. Based on how Allen actually played this year (watching the games) he’s scratching at the door of that top half of starting QBs. 1
GreggTX Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) Sounds about right. Sooner or later, Bills fans will realize that his "scattershot accuracy" is a serious liability. People are just so desperate for a franchise QB and he's a 1st round pick, so he's getting an over-long honeymoon. How long will it last? I mean, there are people on here claiming that Rosenthall "didn't watch" Josh play at all and he's just "going by the numbers." Really? You were tracking Rosenthall's every move? SMH... Edited January 5, 2019 by GreggTX
Albany,n.y. Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, GreggTX said: Sounds about right. Sooner or later, Bills fans will realize that his "scattershot accuracy" is a serious liability. People are just so desperate for a franchise QB and he's a 1st round pick, so he's getting an over-long honeymoon. How long will it last? All the way to Super Bowl MVP. 1
Albany,n.y. Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, NoSaint said: So you can’t trust stats but you can trust your eyes but you didn’t watch bortles but allen must have been better because bortles got benched (ignoring allen losing out to peterman) when ranking passers in 2018 Snarkier than intended but you have to admit it’s a tiny bit amusing that youre knocking a guys rankings for not watching based on the fact that you didn’t watch. The fact Peterman was ahead of Allen on the depth chart for a little over a half of the 1st game of the season, is not very indicative of "losing out to Peterman". The reality was he lost out to himself in the Cincy pre-season game and the coaches felt he wasn't ready to start against one of the league's top Ds on the road. Then once he went in he showed exactly what I look for in a rookie's season-Flashes of brilliance, not overall brilliance because you can't expect it from a rookie. I saw enough to know that he played better than someone who got benched. 1
SoTier Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 19 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said: I don't feel like I need to defend Allen against every analyst and critic. I do feel I need to defend Allen against "fans" who want him to be a bust. In the end, only JA winning games will change minds. He will. Who, exactly, are those "'fans' who want him to be a bust"??? There have been exactly zero regular posters on TSW who have expressed any such sentiment, so this is nothing but a straw man argument. Being skeptical that Allen may be successful, especially with the Bills' crappy coaching and lack of talent around him, doesn't equate to anyone wanting him to "be a bust". 9 hours ago, NoSaint said: So you can’t trust stats but you can trust your eyes but you didn’t watch bortles but allen must have been better because bortles got benched (ignoring allen losing out to peterman) when ranking passers in 2018 Snarkier than intended but you have to admit it’s a tiny bit amusing that youre knocking a guys rankings for not watching based on the fact that you didn’t watch. Eyes wearing Bills-tinted shades are always more trustworthy than statistics or win/loss record or any other metric. 1
WideRightRevenge Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 Hey Rosenthal .. I'll gladly take your #32 ranked QB for the next decade and for you ..
fansince88 Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 21 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said: First this guy clearly dislikes Allen as a QB. I'm still amazed that Allen can bring out so much venom from these folks. They seem to take the possibility that he might be good personal. My guess is that someone like Allen, not being recruited out of HS and not getting a shot after Jr College and making a mockery of their analytics, threatens their rice bowl. These guys make a living trying to convince us they know what they're talking about and if Allen succeeds it's the equivalent to them of a turd in their punch bowl. Second, guys like this use way to much SUBJECTIVE information so why don't we try this little mental exercise: if Buffalo offered to trade Allen even up for another teams current starting QB how many teams would not take the offer? I'm confident in saying it would be a lot less then 31. I'm guessing it might be as low as 10. Maybe lower. IMO that would be a better gauge of where Allen's performance this year has placed him among NFL QB's. As an aside, one reason Jackson has decent passing numbers is the impact of the Ravens outstanding run game. For Baltimore the play action actually means something. Opposing defenses MUST respect the run on a play action pass. This opens up all sorts of opportunities down the field. Belicheat would trade Brady for him in a heartbeat. 1
Kirby Jackson Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 I usually don’t let stuff like this bother me but this kind of did. The Allen haters are going to die on that hill. Whether you like him or not there isn’t a reasonable person in the world that can have him 10 spots below Mariota or below Bortles. Rosenthal should have just said, “I didn’t believe that he would be a good QB when he was drafted. 5 TDs and the AFC Offensive Player of the Week aren’t changing my mind. He stays at 32 forever.” 4
Orlando Buffalo Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 22 hours ago, CommonCents said: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001007337/article/qb-index-patrick-mahomes-leads-yearend-rankings Allen at 32nd. Scattershot accuracy How could Jackson be higher than Allen as he runs and doesn’t pass well? I hope Josh stays motivated and crushes it next year. The order is based entirely on his numbers over the whole year. I am as high on Allen for the future as about anyone but his first few starts were terrible throwing the ball. I know the little blurb is condescending but why let someone like this tool bother you with a one liner? In a few years we will be annoyed when he is ranked 4th and we think he is 1st.
CincyBillsFan Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, fansince88 said: Belicheat would trade Brady for him in a heartbeat. I think we might be surprised at just how many teams with "established" QB's would make that trade in a heartbeat. 1
Doc Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 Josh was hamstrung his rookie season by a) being the least pro-ready QB, b) having arguably the worst collection of talent around him, c) an inexperienced OC and d) no real QB mentor until midway through the season of the 5-1st round QBs. And I'd still put him above at least 10 of the QBs mentioned on that list. 2
CincyBillsFan Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 12 hours ago, NoSaint said: So you can’t trust stats but you can trust your eyes but you didn’t watch bortles but allen must have been better because bortles got benched (ignoring allen losing out to peterman) when ranking passers in 2018 I don't think he lost out as much as the Bills plan was to sit Allen through at least the 1st half of the season. In this they were following the example of KC with Mahomes. My guess is that the folks at One Bills Drive did not want to have a repeat of what happened to Goff under Fisher. Not only did Goff struggle big time but the decision to throw him to the wolves his rookie year cost Fisher his job. McDermitt isn't stupid and he wanted to be careful with his rookie QB in a way that Fisher wasn't with his. The problem is that events spiraled out of control. First, McCarron was not the guy they thought he was, then Allen struggled in the face of a relentless Bengal's pass rush and finally Peterman had played well in preseason. The Bengal's preseason game was a warning to McDermitt & company that with the Bill's O-line in tatters starting Allen against Buffalo's early season schedule would result in Goff part 2. The problem was that Peterman started the season out historically bad. I mean 9 straight possessions without a single 1st down! The Bills had NO choice but to throw Allen to the Wolves. All things considered he actually did okay against the Chargers and then against all odds Allen had a great 1st half (along with the D) against the Vikings in staking out a 27 - 0 lead. But remember how in the 2nd half they basically didn't let Allen throw a pass! It was clear they wanted to preserve this one good showing against the expected future struggles - like at GB the next week. The thing is that against many expectations and in spite of struggling at times Allen did not melt down but rather improved as the season went on. Particularly after he came back from injury. So now the Bills are ahead of the curve with Allen and McDermitt avoided a Goff like disaster. This is why we're optimistic about next year. Stability at BOTH QB and Coach is huge for any team that wants to make the playoffs. 1
JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: I don't think he lost out as much as the Bills plan was to sit Allen through at least the 1st half of the season. In this they were following the example of KC with Mahomes. My guess is that the folks at One Bills Drive did not want to have a repeat of what happened to Goff under Fisher. Not only did Goff struggle big time but the decision to throw him to the wolves his rookie year cost Fisher his job. McDermitt isn't stupid and he wanted to be careful with his rookie QB in a way that Fisher wasn't with his. The problem is that events spiraled out of control. First, McCarron was not the guy they thought he was, then Allen struggled in the face of a relentless Bengal's pass rush and finally Peterman had played well in preseason. The Bengal's preseason game was a warning to McDermitt & company that with the Bill's O-line in tatters starting Allen against Buffalo's early season schedule would result in Goff part 2. The problem was that Peterman started the season out historically bad. I mean 9 straight possessions without a single 1st down! The Bills had NO choice but to throw Allen to the Wolves. All things considered he actually did okay against the Chargers and then against all odds Allen had a great 1st half (along with the D) against the Vikings in staking out a 27 - 0 lead. But remember how in the 2nd half they basically didn't let Allen throw a pass! It was clear they wanted to preserve this one good showing against the expected future struggles - like at GB the next week. The thing is that against many expectations and in spite of struggling at times Allen did not melt down but rather improved as the season went on. Particularly after he came back from injury. So now the Bills are ahead of the curve with Allen and McDermitt avoided a Goff like disaster. This is why we're optimistic about next year. Stability at BOTH QB and Coach is huge for any team that wants to make the playoffs. perfect. McDermott knew 2018 was all about developing Allen and everything makes sense, except I will admit that McBeane made an error in ditching McCarron in the preseason. That mistake contributed to the need to keep Peterman playing long after it was obvious he needed to go. In the end it worked out but there was a lot of damage to fan morale.
WideNine Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 I think it is funny when folks throw out an obvious turd assessment then take the high ground about how Josh Allen fans overreact to the stink. Keep in mind I had no Allen expectations this year, did not follow him at college, did not think any rookie QB the Bills took would see much action, and that our offense would limp behind McCarron. For all their faults I like ESPN's Total QBR because it does not stop at a very limited set of completion % stats that do not give a very good picture of QB performance and it mirrors my own take on Allen's progress this year. Ranking Allen dead last says more about having a faulty analytics system than fans criticizing it supposedly wearing rose-colored glasses. I give more credence to a Total QBR ranking that takes in down and distance metrics and other metrics around QB contributions to keeping drives alive, scoring, etc.. Even so they had Josh dead last early in the year 32.4 - which was fair considering his performance and decision-making. I did not particularly care for his game. Since he came back from injury his rating using their same system jumped to 58.1 (good for 16th best in the league) http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/32747/bills-lay-foundation-with-rookie-qb-josh-allen-during-uneven-season Even taking a cumulative approach (factoring in Allen's poor early games) , Josh comes in 24th http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr Any review of Allen's performance this year that does not account for the improvement in his game since coming back from injury is a review with a healthy dose of suspect objectivity, or using a very limited set of metrics to create the bias they are looking for IMO and of course it will generate a lot of negative comments here. On another note: Interesting 2017 article on the short pass/high completion % how it relates to performance https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nfl-quarterbacks-are-leaning-on-the-short-pass-and-its-not-working/ I actually want Allen to hone his short game, but more for 1st and 2nd down situations as they could be more successful than our running game has been for creating manageable 3rd down and distance situations.
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