GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Da webster guy said: Is Ed Oliver gonna be better than Williams the OT? Yes. Next question. ? 1
MrEpsYtown Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Buffalo30 said: Why? Guards and centers go in the draft in the first round all the time. Why can’t a good right tackle? An improvement to the offensive line is worth a 1st round pick no matter what the position is IMO. A solid starting right tackle in the first round would be a million times better than the revolving door that is Mills. They need to be elite to be picked in the top ten imo. Trade down? Sure. Otherwise it's a wasted pick with little upside. If they aren't in the Quentin Nelson, class you don't do it. I believe you should't do it for left tackles either...unless they are elite. They elite talent in the class are defensive tackles, Allen and Bosa, Devin White. The exception to this is when the Titans took Jack Conklin. It was a sort of weak draft after the top five so they drafted for need. But the passed on Leonard Floyd, Tunsil, Taylor Decker to do so. If Williams or Taylor are teh BPA at 9, fine take them. I count 12 defensive prospects better than those guys. Seriously everyone, please understand that Jonah Williams and Taylor and Little are nowhere near the elite talent that Quentin Nelson is. Not even close.
The Now Moment Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 46 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I struggle to imagine a Nelson level guy whose ceiling is as a RT and couldn't go on to play on the left but if that person did exist I'd consider drafting them in the 1st. I just doubt very much that they do. Two very good tackles would keep the outside rush in check and we could use the tight end more as a receiving threat for Allen. Get a guy that’s a mismatch weapon and give Allen a nice option to throw to. We need to be able to throw over the middle of the field better and a good tight end can fill that need. I think Buffalo can realisticly add two starters on the line in FA. If they draft a tackle, they are probably starting him at RT next year with Dawkins at LT still. If Dawkins bounces back and has a great year with more talent on the line as a whole, would you switch the guy we draft over the next season? I doubt it. Then, he can become just a RT that you drafted in the first round. I think the point should just be to bring in another solid tackle.
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said: Two very good tackles would keep the outside rush in check and we could use the tight end more as a receiving threat for Allen. Get a guy that’s a mismatch weapon and give Allen a nice option to throw to. We need to be able to throw over the middle of the field better and a good tight end can fill that need. I think Buffalo can realisticly add two starters on the line in FA. If they draft a tackle, they are probably starting him at RT next year with Dawkins at LT still. If Dawkins bounces back and has a great year with more talent on the line as a whole, would you switch the guy we draft over the next season? I doubt it. Then, he can become just a RT that you drafted in the first round. I think the point should just be to bring in another solid tackle. If they draft a tackle in the first round they are expecting that guy to start at LT next year. I have very little doubt of that. 14 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: They need to be elite to be picked in the top ten imo. Trade down? Sure. Otherwise it's a wasted pick with little upside. If they aren't in the Quentin Nelson, class you don't do it. I believe you should't do it for left tackles either...unless they are elite. They elite talent in the class are defensive tackles, Allen and Bosa, Devin White. The exception to this is when the Titans took Jack Conklin. It was a sort of weak draft after the top five so they drafted for need. But the passed on Leonard Floyd, Tunsil, Taylor Decker to do so. If Williams or Taylor are teh BPA at 9, fine take them. I count 12 defensive prospects better than those guys. Seriously everyone, please understand that Jonah Williams and Taylor and Little are nowhere near the elite talent that Quentin Nelson is. Not even close. Conklin is in the Lane Johnson category for me. He is a guy who has started at RT because his team already had a very good left tackle. But I am pretty sure he could play left tackle in the National Football League. The Titans picking Conklin I had no issue with them trading up from I think 16 to 8 or 9 to pick him when Tunsil and Decker were still on the board as well was a strange move in my book. 1
billsfan89 Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 7 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said: 3 Tds recieving 2 rushing TDs a sack and at least 1 forced fumble. I thing the best thing fo Dawkins is for Teller to develope or to get another LG that will play well. You could move Teller to the right side and sign a veteran LG and C. That way Dawkins and Teller both have a veteran presence next to them.
MrEpsYtown Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 On the center idea, they highest drafted center over the last 20 years or so was Mike Pouncey at #15. It just is not done. The highest paid center in the league is Ryan Jensen, who was a tackle drafted in the sixth round who converted to center. Free agents we all want Paradis - 6th round Morse - 2nd round Easton - UDFA Darryl Williams - 4th round According to PFF, who I don't love but a lot of people do...Jason Kelce is their highest rated center. Drafted in the 6th round. Their highest rated RT is Mitchell Schwartz, who was drafted in round 2. Take a look at their top 25 offensive lineman of 2018. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-top-25-offensive-linemen-of-the-2018-nfl-season Just 4 of them are top ten picks, Lane Johnson being the only RT on the list drafted in the top ten. The value just isn't there. If a guy is deemed a right tackle it means that there is some flaw in his game that keeps him from being a left tackle. That means he's going to be a flawed player right off the bat.
formerlyofCtown Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, billsfan89 said: You could move Teller to the right side and sign a veteran LG and C. That way Dawkins and Teller both have a veteran presence next to them. If Teller has the ability to play on that side then ok. I know Dawkins steuggles miightily on the right side.
billsfan89 Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, formerlyofCtown said: If Teller has the ability to play on that side then ok. I know Dawkins steuggles miightily on the right side. I can't imagine Teller not being able to play on the right side. Guards are much more interchangeable from left to right and right to left in general than tackles. 1
MrEpsYtown Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: If they draft a tackle in the first round they are expecting that guy to start at LT next year. I have very little doubt of that. Conklin is in the Lane Johnson category for me. He is a guy who has started at RT because his team already had a very good left tackle. But I am pretty sure he could play left tackle in the National Football League. The Titans picking Conklin I had no issue with them trading up from I think 16 to 8 or 9 to pick him when Tunsil and Decker were still on the board as well was a strange move in my book. I think Conklin is a bit overrated and I think the trade up did not make sense. However, it really was not a very good draft. I probably would have waited and took he or Decker..whoever was left. Conklin is a very good player, but I think rushers with some speed like Jerry Hughes would give him a lot of problems if he were playing left tackle. He'd probably be okay because of his excessively long arms. (I feel like we debated Conklin a little while back Gunner.) I do think Conklin can work his way up to the Lane Johnson category.
BuffaloBillsGospel Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 As of right now the only offensive player that I have going in the first 9 picks is QB Dwayne Haskins Ohio State. This is a top heavy defensive draft, this might be the best DL draft to come out in quite some time. 1
MrEpsYtown Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: I can't imagine Teller not being able to play on the right side. Guards are much more interchangeable from left to right and right to left in general than tackles. Ok some offensive line stuff I have learned over the years, coaching for 12 years in high school and going to many clinics. For some, right guard is considered more difficult to play because offensive lines usually slide their protection to the left. Meaning the center, guard and left tackle work in tandem to pick up blitzes. It makes sense to slide your protection to the side of the team's best pass rushers, which is usually the right end or rolb to attack the blind side of the quarterback. The running back usually goes opposite the slide, or tight end usually lines up on the other side, giving the right tackle some help. That often leaves the right guard in a one on one situation. Marshall Yanda/Zach Martin are the prototypes. With all of the crazy exotic blitzes these days, not all of this is important, but it is in line with the simple concept that teams need to protect the blind side of the quarterback. Also, because teams mostly use their tight ends on the right, (obviously this changes but many teams are very right handed) your defensive three technique winds up on that side a lot, giving him a one on one. It's how guys like Geno Atkins are so dominate. 1
Socal-805 Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 14 hours ago, billvernsays said: Oh my bad. He’s someone who’s gotten better each year. He’s different to a Greg Little who’s always seems to leave you wanting him to do a bit more. He’s got really nimble feel with is why I think he could be a LT in the NFL, but I think he could realistically play either Tackle or Guard position in the Pros which I think may make him very interesting to McBean. Armlegnth?
billvernsays Posted January 4, 2019 Author Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Socal-805 said: Armlegnth? Not Ideal for a Left Tackle. It’ll be interesting to see how he measures up against some of the other top OLINE prospects. I belive Little is the only top prospect with that ideal length (no-pun-intended) Edited January 4, 2019 by billvernsays
BADOLBILZ Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: A solid starting right tackle is a bad use of a first round pick. Solid starting right tackles don't impact Ws and Ls enough to make them worth a 1st round pick. That doesn't mean they can't improve your team - but there are 6 other rounds to improve your team and there are routes to get vets through FA and trade that improve your team. Your first round pick (especially if you are picking in the first 2/3rds of the 1st round as the Bills invariably have been) should be real key impact players at critical positions. If you want to take a tackle in the 1st and start him at right tackle I am fine with that, but it must be someone who you feel ultimately could be a starting blindside protector in the National Football League - because they more than any other linemen impact Ws and Ls and they are the people that are much harder to acquire through trade, FA and in later rounds. Let's take Ja'Wuan James as our case study: - Drafted by the Dolphins in the 1st round of the 2014 NFL Draft (19th overall); - Started as a rookie at RT opposite a proven vet in Brandon Albert on the left side; - He started the season okay but when Albert got injured down the stretch he moved over to left tackle where he struggled badly with foot speed and movement skills in pass protection; - Since then, returned to RT, he has given the Dolphins 4 really solid years of top 3rd of the league right tackle play; - But going into 2016 (which would be James's third year the Dolphins) the Dolphins decided that they needed a long term answer to take over from Brandon Albert at LT in 2017; - They judged James did not have the necessary skills to play left tackle and as a result spent a second 1st round pick in 3 years on an OT taking Laremy Tunsil; - By the end of 2018 the Dolphins are in a position where James is a FA and it looks unlikely they bring him back, meaning that for their investment of a 1st round pick they have got 4 good years of production at a non-premier position. That isn't a bust by any means... and he did improve their offensive line. But it is a poor return on investment. And I would argue James has been more than "a solid starting right tackle". He still hasn't been worth it. Now if when Albert moved on they had felt good enough about James to slide him over to the left side and he had become the starter there then I have no issue with him playing his first 3 years on the right side. But what the Dolphins did was spend a 1st round pick on a guy whose NFL ceiling was good right tackle. Excellent take. And one of the key points you are making is about that money. Draft your own studs at the big $ positions and then you will have plenty of money to poach other teams guards or right tackles in free agency. We've been a farm system for other teams this century when doing things like this...........Donte Whitner, Willis McGahee etc.. Before them there was a period when corners were less valued and we seemed to take one every year and then just lose them in FA. Now.......with 1st round contracts only 4 guaranteed years instead of the 6 in Donte's day......you REALLY can't afford to not be thinking about the value of the position in round 1. 2
JimKellyTryouts Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: A solid starting right tackle is a bad use of a first round pick. Solid starting right tackles don't impact Ws and Ls enough to make them worth a 1st round pick. That doesn't mean they can't improve your team - but there are 6 other rounds to improve your team and there are routes to get vets through FA and trade that improve your team. Your first round pick (especially if you are picking in the first 2/3rds of the 1st round as the Bills invariably have been) should be real key impact players at critical positions. If you want to take a tackle in the 1st and start him at right tackle I am fine with that, but it must be someone who you feel ultimately could be a starting blindside protector in the National Football League - because they more than any other linemen impact Ws and Ls and they are the people that are much harder to acquire through trade, FA and in later rounds. Let's take Ja'Wuan James as our case study: - Drafted by the Dolphins in the 1st round of the 2014 NFL Draft (19th overall); - Started as a rookie at RT opposite a proven vet in Brandon Albert on the left side; - He started the season okay but when Albert got injured down the stretch he moved over to left tackle where he struggled badly with foot speed and movement skills in pass protection; - Since then, returned to RT, he has given the Dolphins 4 really solid years of top 3rd of the league right tackle play; - But going into 2016 (which would be James's third year the Dolphins) the Dolphins decided that they needed a long term answer to take over from Brandon Albert at LT in 2017; - They judged James did not have the necessary skills to play left tackle and as a result spent a second 1st round pick in 3 years on an OT taking Laremy Tunsil; - By the end of 2018 the Dolphins are in a position where James is a FA and it looks unlikely they bring him back, meaning that for their investment of a 1st round pick they have got 4 good years of production at a non-premier position. That isn't a bust by any means... and he did improve their offensive line. But it is a poor return on investment. And I would argue James has been more than "a solid starting right tackle". He still hasn't been worth it. Now if when Albert moved on they had felt good enough about James to slide him over to the left side and he had become the starter there then I have no issue with him playing his first 3 years on the right side. But what the Dolphins did was spend a 1st round pick on a guy whose NFL ceiling was good right tackle. You bring up some good points, but there are always other cases that can be brought up - like Lane Johnson to Jason Peters and Jack Conklin to Taylor Lewan. 1
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, JimKellyTryouts said: You bring up some good points, but there are always other cases that can be brought up - like Lane Johnson to Jason Peters and Jack Conklin to Taylor Lewan. Both of those are guys I think can play LT though. Lane likely will next year. Conklin in fairness might need to leave Tennessee to do it.
formerlyofCtown Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, billsfan89 said: I can't imagine Teller not being able to play on the right side. Guards are much more interchangeable from left to right and right to left in general than tackles. To tell the truth im actually pretty excited about Teller. I was stoked when the Bill drafted him. Felt the same about Harrison as well.
billsfan89 Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said: As of right now the only offensive player that I have going in the first 9 picks is QB Dwayne Haskins Ohio State. This is a top heavy defensive draft, this might be the best DL draft to come out in quite some time. The more I evaluate the draft the more I think pick 9 will be a D-line player, which while not a drastic need would be a need (I think the pass rush needs a shot in the arm and the D-line needs more younger players, besides Shaq and Phillips all the other D-line players are older players.) I wouldn't mind at all a RT as I think this philsophy that if you draft a RT at 9 its such a reach if they can't be swung back over to the left side is foolish. RT is a premium position in the modern NFL. A lot of the top pass rushers in the NFL rush against the right side. You need 5 top O-line players and they are all becoming harder to find. So while being able to shift over to the left side is a positive trait it isn't a make or break in my opinion.
The Now Moment Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: If they draft a tackle in the first round they are expecting that guy to start at LT next year. I have very little doubt of that. I don’t know about that. Dawkins has more experience and it’s probably smarter to wait and make sure the rookie can manage himself at the pro level by playing him in the right side. They will make him earn it. We will see how things shake out.
The Now Moment Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: They need to be elite to be picked in the top ten imo. Trade down? Sure. Otherwise it's a wasted pick with little upside. If they aren't in the Quentin Nelson, class you don't do it. I believe you should't do it for left tackles either...unless they are elite. They elite talent in the class are defensive tackles, Allen and Bosa, Devin White. The exception to this is when the Titans took Jack Conklin. It was a sort of weak draft after the top five so they drafted for need. But the passed on Leonard Floyd, Tunsil, Taylor Decker to do so. If Williams or Taylor are teh BPA at 9, fine take them. I count 12 defensive prospects better than those guys. Seriously everyone, please understand that Jonah Williams and Taylor and Little are nowhere near the elite talent that Quentin Nelson is. Not even close. I never said they were near Nelson and I stated in an earlier post that they’d need to be elite like Nelson was to be picked in the top 10-20. i wasn’t dating any of these guys stray that level. I was simply saying that RT is worth taking in the top ten when the talent is there. I fully expect Buffalo to draft defense based on the talent at the top of the class ATM:
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